There was no person who in writing the NT was either an apostle or a close associate of an apostle. If, for example, they weren't an apostle, their information was gained from an apostle. Luke traveled with Paul. Mark was with Peter. Both James and Jude were brothers of our Lord, and well accepted by all the Apostles. James was the pastor of the church in Jerusalem where the council of chapter 15 was held.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Researching apostles...
- Thread starter awaken
- Start date
All writers got there information from the Holy Spirit! All scripture is inspired!There was no person who in writing the NT was either an apostle or a close associate of an apostle. If, for example, they weren't an apostle, their information was gained from an apostle. Luke traveled with Paul. Mark was with Peter. Both James and Jude were brothers of our Lord, and well accepted by all the Apostles. James was the pastor of the church in Jerusalem where the council of chapter 15 was held.
...plus...it still does not prove that Jesus did not send apostles AFTER he ascended! Eph. 4 says he did!
The authors of the NT were not simple mechanical robots of God.All writers got there information from the Holy Spirit! All scripture is inspired!
...plus...it still does not prove that Jesus did not send apostles AFTER he ascended! Eph. 4 says he did!
This is demonstrated well in the OT. Isaiah was a well educated man who could write in a poetical fashion and use many literary devices. And all of that comes out in his writing, in the Book of Isaiah.
The personality of Amos comes out in his book. Amos was a farmer, a sheep-herder. His style is completely different as one would expect.
In the NT the writing of John, a fisherman, is completely different than Paul, a highly educated man. God allowed their personalities to shine through their writings. They were not simply mechanical robots.
Where do you think Paul got all his information from? It is true much of it was direct revelation. He describes in detail his voyage to Rome and how he was shipwrecked. Did that come from the Holy Spirit, or did the Holy Spirit inspire what he wrote?
I believe the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible...men penned the words as he inspired them to do! Still this has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus said in Eph. 4 that he sent apostles, prophets etc...AFTER he ascended! All 12 apostles were called before the ascension! Paul was called afterwards...and he could have called more... everything is not recorded in scripture. BUT Eph. says he called them AFTER his ascension and they will be here "until we come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the meansure of the stature of the fullness of Christ"The authors of the NT were not simple mechanical robots of God.
This is demonstrated well in the OT. Isaiah was a well educated man who could write in a poetical fashion and use many literary devices. And all of that comes out in his writing, in the Book of Isaiah.
The personality of Amos comes out in his book. Amos was a farmer, a sheep-herder. His style is completely different as one would expect.
In the NT the writing of John, a fisherman, is completely different than Paul, a highly educated man. God allowed their personalities to shine through their writings. They were not simply mechanical robots.
Where do you think Paul got all his information from? It is true much of it was direct revelation. He describes in detail his voyage to Rome and how he was shipwrecked. Did that come from the Holy Spirit, or did the Holy Spirit inspire what he wrote?
That is not what the text says. You read into the text what you want to read.I believe the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible...men penned the words as he inspired them to do! Still this has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus said in Eph. 4 that he sent apostles, prophets etc...AFTER he ascended! All 12 apostles were called before the ascension! Paul was called afterwards...and he could have called more... everything is not recorded in scripture. BUT Eph. says he called them AFTER his ascension and they will be here "until we come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the meansure of the stature of the fullness of Christ"
He gave to the church OT prophets also. He gave to the church the OT prophets in the form of the OT itself. Do you use the OT, or have you thrown it in the garbage? If you use it, then Christ has given you the OT prophets. The verse does not mean that all the positions listed continue today or were appointed after the ascension. There is no such meaning in that verse.
He is speaking to a first century church, the church at Ephesus, of whom Timothy was the pastor. Timothy, no doubt had mentioned many of the Apostles. He traveled with Paul, had met with Peter and James; traveled also with Luke, and no doubt had met many of the others. He was Paul's disciple and went with Paul wherever he went until Paul had sent him to Ephesus. The verses you reference are written in context to the local church at Ephesus, not to a universal church that doesn't exist.
The we, probably referred to Paul, Timothy and the members of the Ephesian church. They were to come into the unity of faith, which they probably did.
The lessons of the church of Ephesus every Bible believing local church should apply to themselves today, with the exception that we don't have apostles and prophets today.
As I said in the Title...this is researching apostles! So this is an on going search that just started a few months ago! This is what I found in scriptures about the biblical characteristics and ministry of apostles
Acts 2:4 They were filled with the Spirit.
Acts 2:14-36 They preached the Word of God.
Acts 3:1-8 They healed the sick.
Acts 4:1-12 They were persecuted.
Acts 5:1-11 They pronounced God’s judgment.
Acts 5:12 They worked signs and wonders.
Acts 5:42 They taught and preached Jesus Christ.
Acts 6:1-6 They ordained deacons.
Acts 8:14-17 They laid their hands on others to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8 and later chapters. They founded and/or strengthened new churches.
Acts 9:36-43 They raised the dead.
Acts 10 They preached to the Gentiles.
Acts 12:1-11 They were martyred, persecuted, and sometimes delivered.
Acts 13:4 They were sent by the Holy Spirit (the root of the word “apostle” means “sent”).
Acts 13:11 They pronounce a curse.
Acts 14:21-22 They confirmed disciples in their faith.
Acts 14:23 They ordained elders.
Acts 15:1-21 They settled doctrinal disputations.
Acts 16:18 They cast out demons.
Acts 19:22 They sent forth other ministering men.
Acts 20-28 list further ministries that apostles performed.
1 Corinthians 3:10 They were wise master builders. They laid spiritual foundations.
1 Corinthians 4:14-15 The apostle Paul warned his “sons” in the faith.
1 Corinthians 7:1 They counseled and answered the saints’ questions.
1 Corinthians 11:34 They set churches in order.
2 Corinthians 11:28 Paul exercised “care of all the churches.”
2 Corinthians 13:10 They used their authority for edification.
Ephesians 2:20 Apostles are part of the foundation of the church.
Ephesians 3:3-5 They received revelation from God.
Ephesians 4:11-12 They perfected the saints.
But Eph. 4 explains it best...For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
God gave the Apostolic Church the Apostles/prophets, for the Apsotle paul said that the church was laid upon the foundation of christ, and on the teachings of Apostles/prophets, but that their "job" was completed, for we now have the more sure word of the lod via Scriptures, and we have the HS indwelling us today, so the Apsotles/prophets not needed, as we all have the bible and the Spirit working in and thru the scriptures to mature us, gude us, etc!
So you are saying that prophets are speaking of OT prophets?That is not what the text says. You read into the text what you want to read.
He gave to the church OT prophets also. He gave to the church the OT prophets in the form of the OT itself. Do you use the OT, or have you thrown it in the garbage? If you use it, then Christ has given you the OT prophets. The verse does not mean that all the positions listed continue today or were appointed after the ascension. There is no such meaning in that verse.
He is speaking to a first century church, the church at Ephesus, of whom Timothy was the pastor. Timothy, no doubt had mentioned many of the Apostles. He traveled with Paul, had met with Peter and James; traveled also with Luke, and no doubt had met many of the others. He was Paul's disciple and went with Paul wherever he went until Paul had sent him to Ephesus. The verses you reference are written in context to the local church at Ephesus, not to a universal church that doesn't exist.
The we, probably referred to Paul, Timothy and the members of the Ephesian church. They were to come into the unity of faith, which they probably did.
The lessons of the church of Ephesus every Bible believing local church should apply to themselves today, with the exception that we don't have apostles and prophets today.
Were they living in the time of Jesus or after?
Well, Maybe, JUST MAYBE! That is why we are in such a shape now as far as the church goes! We have kicked out what God meant for our good! He said they would be here UNTIL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ!God gave the Apostolic Church the Apostles/prophets, for the Apsotle paul said that the church was laid upon the foundation of christ, and on the teachings of Apostles/prophets, but that their "job" was completed, for we now have the more sure word of the lod via Scriptures, and we have the HS indwelling us today, so the Apsotles/prophets not needed, as we all have the bible and the Spirit working in and thru the scriptures to mature us, gude us, etc!
Jesus said that John was the last of the OT prophets and gave him great praise.So you are saying that prophets are speaking of OT prophets?
Were they living in the time of Jesus or after?
There were some NT prophets like Agabus, but not many.
There was the gift of prophesy, strictly a revelatory gift, used only when the canon of Scripture was incomplete. When the canon was completed (made perfect) it was no longer needed. It ceased, as the Bible said it would. The "office" of the prophet disappeared with it.
So again you are adding your opinion in there to make it fit your theology!Jesus said that John was the last of the OT prophets and gave him great praise.
There were some NT prophets like Agabus, but not many.
There was the gift of prophesy, strictly a revelatory gift, used only when the canon of Scripture was incomplete. When the canon was completed (made perfect) it was no longer needed. It ceased, as the Bible said it would. The "office" of the prophet disappeared with it.
Because...
1 Corinthians 14:29, 32, 37 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.... [32] The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.... [37] If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
The early church — here, the church at Corinth — found it quite normal to have a prophet or prophets in the church.
Acts 13:1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers
Again, it was not unusual, but accepted, that there might be prophets (even plural prophets) in a local church. And the New Testament church recognized other Christian prophets by name...(as you said they were a few)
Agabus (Acts 11:28; 21:10) Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32)
Matthew 10:41a, KJV He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.
Why beat around the bush? Jesus tells us to receive someone who is a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” There is no biblical encouragement for identifying certain ones as “evangelists, pastors and teachers” and then identifying true prophets and apostles with correct but controvery-avoiding phrases like: “He has an apostolic [or prophetic] ministry.” As if the Lord has given three nouns (evangelist, pastor, teacher) and two adjectives (apostolic, prophetic)! No! Jesus said to receive a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” It’s time for the Church to shake off the fear of man and return to biblical patterns.
So again you are adding your opinion in there to make it fit your theology!
Because...
1 Corinthians 14:29, 32, 37 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.... [32] The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.... [37] If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
The early church — here, the church at Corinth — found it quite normal to have a prophet or prophets in the church.
Acts 13:1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers
Again, it was not unusual, but accepted, that there might be prophets (even plural prophets) in a local church. And the New Testament church recognized other Christian prophets by name...(as you said they were a few)
Agabus (Acts 11:28; 21:10) Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32)
Matthew 10:41a, KJV He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.
Why beat around the bush? Jesus tells us to receive someone who is a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” There is no biblical encouragement for identifying certain ones as “evangelists, pastors and teachers” and then identifying true prophets and apostles with correct but controvery-avoiding phrases like: “He has an apostolic [or prophetic] ministry.” As if the Lord has given three nouns (evangelist, pastor, teacher) and two adjectives (apostolic, prophetic)! No! Jesus said to receive a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” It’s time for the Church to shake off the fear of man and return to biblical patterns.
That was addressing the Apsotolic church only though!Time when the local church had God speak forth to them to confirm doctrines and practices through Apostles/prophets, and those who had a message from god in prophesy or tongues! god wrote that in order to have guidelines to know what was from and of him, and to know false from fake!
NOT for today, as we now have the completed word of God to us!
Interesting that there appeared to be 'charasmatic chaos" even in the early churches, eh?
Nothing you just said was backed up with scripture! So therefore again..it is just your opinion!That was addressing the Apsotolic church only though!Time when the local church had God speak forth to them to confirm doctrines and practices through Apostles/prophets, and those who had a message from god in prophesy or tongues! god wrote that in order to have guidelines to know what was from and of him, and to know false from fake!
NOT for today, as we now have the completed word of God to us!
Interesting that there appeared to be 'charasmatic chaos" even in the early churches, eh?
Show me where there is a difference in the church then and what he wants for the church now.
It was not just for a certain time! It was for an example for us to follow!
Eph. is plain...he sent them after he ascended.
THe early church had them!
No where does it say they are not needed today! Just the opposite is recorded in the Word!
Nothing you just said was backed up with scripture! So therefore again..it is just your opinion!
Show me where there is a difference in the church then and what he wants for the church now.
It was not just for a certain time! It was for an example for us to follow!
Eph. is plain...he sent them after he ascended.
THe early church had them!
No where does it say they are not needed today! Just the opposite is recorded in the Word!
Where "opinion" comes into play is how you choose to personally interpret the proof texts you cherry pick.
Since no one alive today, as I have shown biblically, qualifies to be an Apostle then your personal application of Ephesians 4 is in error.
Last edited by a moderator:
Where "opinion" comes into play is how you choose to personally interpret the proof texts you cherry pick.
Since no one alive today, as I have shown biblically, qualifies to be an Apostle then your personal application of Ephesians 4 is in error.
Good point! For since the office of Apostle has ceased, why not prophet also?
That would answer Awaken on the 5 fold ministry for today question!
Nothing I said was opinion. Or don't you recognize the words of Jesus?So again you are adding your opinion in there to make it fit your theology!
Because...
Jesus said: "John was the last of the OT prophets." Was he lying or so great is your unbelief in the Scriptures that you don't believe His words.
Believe me; that is not my opinion. Neither were the other things that I said to you.
Be careful what you say, lest it come back to bite you.
And that is precisely what it was--an early church in Corinth. It was not an early church of the 21st century where apostles and prophets are no more. They ceased at the end of the first century. There is no more prophetic office.1 Corinthians 14:29, 32, 37 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.... [32] The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.... [37] If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
The early church — here, the church at Corinth — found it quite normal to have a prophet or prophets in the church.
If you knew what this verse meant:
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Then you would know that prophecy is not for today. They have failed, come to an end, ceased. They are no longer needed. They have served their purpose.
This is a church which you are not a member of; am I correct in saying that? Or are you older than 2,000 years? The Book of Acts is a troubling book for you. It is a book of transition, a book of history, a book of change, a book of the acts of the apostles, their works and history. It is not a book of doctrine. But you don't accept that.Acts 13:1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers
Again, it was not unusual, but accepted, that there might be prophets (even plural prophets) in a local church. And the New Testament church recognized other Christian prophets by name...(as you said they were a few)
Just because there were prophets in that first century church does not mean there should be prophets today. They did not have a finished or completed canon of Scripture either.
And your point is??Agabus (Acts 11:28; 21:10) Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32)
That is not all that he said:Matthew 10:41a, KJV He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.
Why beat around the bush? Jesus tells us to receive someone who is a prophet “in the name of a prophet.”
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
--Have you lost the context somewhere? I will quote it for you:
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
--He was speaking to his disciples or shall I say The Twelve Apostles.
The sometimes acted in the capacity of prophets. That was the context.
Even Jesus identified his own disciples as prophets. That is what the passage shows. You sort of missed that in your wild interpretation of Scripture.There is no biblical encouragement for identifying certain ones as “evangelists, pastors and teachers” and then identifying true prophets and apostles with correct but controvery-avoiding phrases like: “He has an apostolic [or prophetic] ministry.”
He said to his own "apostles" that they were prophets. The apostolic age came to an end when they died! We cannot return to the first century. Your car will not drive backwards in time.As if the Lord has given three nouns (evangelist, pastor, teacher) and two adjectives (apostolic, prophetic)! No! Jesus said to receive a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” It’s time for the Church to shake off the fear of man and return to biblical patterns.
Good point! For since the office of Apostle has ceased, why not prophet also?
The qualifications are different. And it depends on how one defines "prophet". If one is a prophet in the same way Paul was as received new revelations from God then one does not hold to the closed canon. Of course that means new doctrines are on the table. And I reject that. But I do not believe that if the office of Apostle is closed then the office of Prophet must also be closed. That would be a begging the question fallacy.
Your qualification for an apostles is limited to one! Seeing the risen Jesus! I refuted that by saying that if Paul can become an apostle by Jesus calling him in the way he did....then who are we to say he can not call others the same way!Where "opinion" comes into play is how you choose to personally interpret the proof texts you cherry pick.
Since no one alive today, as I have shown biblically, qualifies to be an Apostle then your personal application of Ephesians 4 is in error.
YOU can not justify one being ceased by the other! Man does not want apostles or prophets today...have you really ask yourself, WHY???Good point! For since the office of Apostle has ceased, why not prophet also?
That would answer Awaken on the 5 fold ministry for today question!
Your qualification for an apostles is limited to one! Seeing the risen Jesus! I refuted that by saying that if Paul can become an apostle by Jesus calling him in the way he did....then who are we to say he can not call others the same way!
You refuted nothing. His qualification was the same as everyone else.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Last edited by a moderator: