Researching apostles...

[DHK]

Here you go...proof that the Word of God is true!
There can be 12 names written on the wall and still have more apostles! Where are you going to fit Paul in the wall? I guess you are going to kick Matthias out???

Read your Bible. Matthias is one of those 12.
Paul was "as one born out of due time." Those 13 are the only Apostles. Paul was accepted as an Apostle by the other apostles--the only one.

It is a major point that you want to ignore! Because to understand that significance you would have to reconsider your theory! He called the 12 before his resurrection. Matthias and Paul, just to name two, were called after the ascension! He sent these gifts to the church...AFTER his ascension Until we reach the FULL measure of Christ!

Your misinterpretation of Scripture is astounding. The ascension has nothing to do with this. Matthias took the office of Judas. That in and of itself is enough to prove you wrong. The ascension is irrelevant when it comes to who is an apostle and who is not. Christ chose 12 and one of them was a devil. Those were his words.

 

[awaken]

Read your Bible. Matthias is one of those 12.
Paul was "as one born out of due time." Those 13 are the only Apostles. Paul was accepted as an Apostle by the other apostles--the only one.

You are the one that brought the 12 pillars in the end time! YOu tried to justify "no more apostles" by that statement! But you seem to leave Paul out of the 12 pillars! So if Paul is not included....maybe the others that he calls are not included! YOur point does not prove or disprove apostles for today!

Your misinterpretation of Scripture is astounding. The ascension has nothing to do with this. Matthias took the office of Judas. That in and of itself is enough to prove you wrong. The ascension is irrelevant when it comes to who is an apostle and who is not. Christ chose 12 and one of them was a devil. Those were his words.

Jesus sent gifts (Eph. 4) to the church AFTER he ascended! Apostles and prophets being among them! You exclude them when the Bible does not!

 

[DHK]

You are the one that brought the 12 pillars in the end time! YOu tried to justify "no more apostles" by that statement! But you seem to leave Paul out of the 12 pillars! So if Paul is not included....maybe the others that he calls are not included! YOur point does not prove or disprove apostles for today!

Paul himself says he is not counted as one of the twelve. He himself says that God gave him "a special dispensation." Why do you argue against God?

Jesus sent gifts (Eph. 4) to the church AFTER he ascended! Apostles and prophets being among them! You exclude them when the Bible does not!

If you read Acts chapter one, there are two things to note.
The ascension took place.
All the apostles were present.
Therefore the ascension is irrelevant. All the apostles were still alive at the time of the writing of that epistle to the Ephesus. They were all alive at the time of the ascension. You just throw in this red herring that makes no sense. God had given the apostles (still alive), Prophets (still alive), pastors, evangelists, and teachers.
However the apostles and prophets ceased to be by the end of the first century, or about 40 years later. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are the one that brought the 12 pillars in the end time! YOu tried to justify "no more apostles" by that statement! But you seem to leave Paul out of the 12 pillars! So if Paul is not included....maybe the others that he calls are not included! YOur point does not prove or disprove apostles for today!

Jesus sent gifts (Eph. 4) to the church AFTER he ascended! Apostles and prophets being among them! You exclude them when the Bible does not!

God gave the office of Apostle /prophet to the church in Acts in order to confirm thru their acts of signs/wonders/miracles/healings ALL in the nme of jesus, that he was indeed the One promised to israel to come..

Also, God knew that in the transistion era, he would be using them to speak forth truth/revealtion to the church, so in that sense they kept confirming the Messiah and the word of the Lord given among them...

Once John passed though, we had completed the canon, so God ceased operating in revealing truths through them, as we now had the finished word of God to the church!

So his guidelines to how to function in "charsma" was given to be in order, and to check and confirm that was from him...

now NO needfor either office though, as we all now can go and check it in the Bible itself!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God gave the office of Apostle /prophet to the church in Acts in order to confirm thru their acts of signs/wonders/miracles/healings ALL in the nme of jesus, that he was indeed the One promised to israel to come..

Also, God knew that in the transistion era, he would be using them to speak forth truth/revealtion to the church, so in that sense they kept confirming the Messiah and the word of the Lord given among them...

Once John passed though, we had completed the canon, so God ceased operating in revealing truths through them, as we now had the finished word of God to the church!

So his guidelines to how to function in "charsma" was given to be in order, and to check and confirm that was from him...

now NO needfor either office though, as we all now can go and check it in the Bible itself!

Yea! Amen!

So from where did the Church get the 'right' to assume the mandate to water-baptise, because to baptise "IN THE NAME" AS SUCH was given to the apostles exclusively!?

 

[awaken]

Paul himself says he is not counted as one of the twelve. He himself says that God gave him "a special dispensation." Why do you argue against God?

I don't...but you want to prove apostles don't exist anymore because there are only 12 pillars in the end times! I refuted that with Paul! So admit that your argument does not hold water in this debate concerning apostles for today! If Paul was called out so could others! Period!

If you read Acts chapter one, there are two things to note.
The ascension took place.
All the apostles were present.

Yes, after they voted in Matthias!
But Paul was called later...as others could have been also!

Therefore the ascension is irrelevant. All the apostles were still alive at the time of the writing of that epistle to the Ephesus. They were all alive at the time of the ascension. You just throw in this red herring that makes no sense. God had given the apostles (still alive), Prophets (still alive), pastors, evangelists, and teachers.
However the apostles and prophets ceased to be by the end of the first century, or about 40 years later. What is so hard to understand about that?

You added that they ceased! THe Word does not declare that!
THose apostles were called before the ascension...except Matthias and Paul!
The gifts (Ephl 4) will be here until we are the FULL measure of CHRIST!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yea! Amen!

So from where did the Church get the 'right' to assume the mandate to water-baptise, because to baptise "IN THE NAME" AS SUCH was given to the apostles exclusively!?

Jesus gave the church the 2 ordiannces of water baptism and communion, so would have to take that up with him!

Do you do communion still?

 

[awaken]

God gave the office of Apostle /prophet to the church in Acts in order to confirm thru their acts of signs/wonders/miracles/healings ALL in the nme of jesus, that he was indeed the One promised to israel to come..

Also, God knew that in the transistion era, he would be using them to speak forth truth/revealtion to the church, so in that sense they kept confirming the Messiah and the word of the Lord given among them...

Once John passed though, we had completed the canon, so God ceased operating in revealing truths through them, as we now had the finished word of God to the church!

So his guidelines to how to function in "charsma" was given to be in order, and to check and confirm that was from him...

now NO needfor either office though, as we all now can go and check it in the Bible itself!

Well he left Eph. 4 in the Bible..the Word that we are to prove all things now, right!...and they are all needed until we are THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't...but you want to prove apostles don't exist anymore because there are only 12 pillars in the end times! I refuted that with Paul! So admit that your argument does not hold water in this debate concerning apostles for today! If Paul was called out so could others! Period!

Yes, after they voted in Matthias!
But Paul was called later...as others could have been also!
You added that they ceased! THe Word does not declare that!
THose apostles were called before the ascension...except Matthias and Paul!
The gifts (Ephl 4) will be here until we are the FULL measure of CHRIST!

We have the fulness of thev Spirit residing in all the saved, and we have Christ, who grants EACH of us ALL spiritual blessings from God!

The Bible is sufficient to mature us up in the faith...
they ceased, as we now in those things have even better deal with God!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't...but you want to prove apostles don't exist anymore because there are only 12 pillars in the end times! I refuted that with Paul! So admit that your argument does not hold water in this debate concerning apostles for today! If Paul was called out so could others! Period!

Yes, after they voted in Matthias!
But Paul was called later...as others could have been also!
You added that they ceased! THe Word does not declare that!
THose apostles were called before the ascension...except Matthias and Paul!
The gifts (Ephl 4) will be here until we are the FULL measure of CHRIST!

First, you >refuted< nothing, and Paul does not allow himself to be used to >refute< the truth of twelve apostles being the number of >the 12 pillars<.

Then, you are not free to yourself, >add<, >as others could have been also< because >Paul was called later<.

Of course all 'the gifts' were given for always; as is manifest every day and will remain manifest as no phenomenon or novelty whatsoever for Christian Faith until Christ comes again.

>The gifts< won’t be here >until< or because we have become >the FULL measure of CHRIST<. We will NEVER be or become that before, that—which will be in the resurrection of the body and glorification only!

 

[awaken]

First, you >refuted< nothing, and Paul does not allow himself to be used to >refute< the truth of twelve apostles being the number of >the 12 pillars<.

I agreed to the twelve being the 12 pillars. But Paul is not one of the twelve. DHK was trying to prove there are no more apostles, prophets because there are only 12 pillars.

Then, you are not free to yourself, >add<, >as others could have been also< because >Paul was called later<.

I agree Paul was called later! Paul is an apostle!

Of course all 'the gifts' were given for always; as is manifest every day and will remain manifest as no phenomenon or novelty whatsoever for Christian Faith until Christ comes again.

>The gifts< won’t be here >until< or because we have become >the FULL measure of CHRIST<. We will NEVER be or become that before, that—which will be in the resurrection of the body and glorification only!

If I understand your post right (It is hard to follow sometimes)...You do not believe we will ever become the FULL measure of Christ until Chirst returns. If this is correct! I agreee!

 

[DHK]

I don't...but you want to prove apostles don't exist anymore because there are only 12 pillars in the end times! I refuted that with Paul! So admit that your argument does not hold water in this debate concerning apostles for today! If Paul was called out so could others! Period!

Yes, after they voted in Matthias!

There are The Twelve and that includes Matthias for Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, the son of perdition. After the ascension, the apostles filled the office with Matthias. He is the 12th apostle, voted in as such after the ascension. The ascension is irrelevant.

But Paul was called later...as others could have been also!

Your entire theology rests on "could have." Yes, God "could have" called one hundred thousand aliens to be apostles for us as well. But he didn't. God could have allowed each one of us to live up to two thousand years, but he didn't. God could have done many things, but he chose not to. My faith does not rest on the "could haves" of your imagination.
Others "could have" been also, but they weren't. We don't have that evidence, and the Bible does not speak to that fact. We base our beliefs on the Bible not on speculation.

You added that they ceased! THe Word does not declare that!
THose apostles were called before the ascension...except Matthias and Paul!
The gifts (Ephl 4) will be here until we are the FULL measure of CHRIST!

The Bible uses the word "cease" in 1Cor.13:8. Do you have a problem with that?
The gifts were signs of the Apostles. When the Apostles died the signs died with them. They ceased as we know they would in 1Cor.13:8.

 

[awaken]

There are The Twelve and that includes Matthias for Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, the son of perdition. After the ascension, the apostles filled the office with Matthias. He is the 12th apostle, voted in as such after the ascension. The ascension is irrelevant.

Of course it is irrelevant to you! If it was relevant...it would blow your theory out of the water!

Your entire theology rests on "could have." Yes, God "could have" called one hundred thousand aliens to be apostles for us as well. But he didn't. God could have allowed each one of us to live up to two thousand years, but he didn't. God could have done many things, but he chose not to. My faith does not rest on the "could haves" of your imagination.
Others "could have" been also, but they weren't. We don't have that evidence, and the Bible does not speak to that fact. We base our beliefs on the Bible not on speculation.

THen continue rest your faith on your own unbelief....

The Bible uses the word "cease" in 1Cor.13:8. Do you have a problem with that?
The gifts were signs of the Apostles. When the Apostles died the signs died with them. They ceased as we know they would in 1Cor.13:8.

No, but you do have a problem on when they will cease according to 1 Cor. 13:8 "then face to face...then shall I know even as also I AM KNOWN"

 

[DHK]

Of course it is irrelevant to you! If it was relevant...it would blow your theory out of the water!

The ascension is mentioned in Acts chapter one when all the apostles were alive. They were still alive at the writing of the epistle to the Ephesus. What you say makes no sense.

THen continue rest your faith on your own unbelief....

I believe. However, your denial of certain parts of Scripture has led you into serious doctrinal error.

No, but you do have a problem on when they will cease according to 1 Cor. 13:8 "then face to face...then shall I know even as also I AM KNOWN"

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
James 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Verse 23 in the WEB reads:
James 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man beholding his natural face in a mirror;

The glass or mirror that James is speaking about is an illustration. Someone who looks into a mirror, walks away from it, and then has forgotten if he has combed his hair, etc., is not doing so well. He hasn't looked carefully. Also the "mirrors" at that time were made of brass. They didn't give a clear image. It was distorted. It was hard to see a good image.
But there would come a time when the NT canon would be complete and Paul looked forward to that day (He did not know that he would not see it). But when it came he would see himself more clearly and completely or perfectly than ever before. The Word of God is a mirror reflecting back right into our face who we really are. It tells us of our sin, convicts us of our every wrong. We clearly see who we really are especially having the completed NT.

 

[awaken]

The ascension is mentioned in Acts chapter one when all the apostles were alive. They were still alive at the writing of the epistle to the Ephesus. What you say makes no sense.

It was after the ascension that he sent these gifts to the church! The first 12 apostles were called out before the ascension!

I believe. However, your denial of certain parts of Scripture has led you into serious doctrinal error.

Well, in my opinion by you ignoring this passage and 1 Cor. 13...you have (as I was in the past) been led into unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the apostles needed in the church today! The apostles did more than write the Bible! They did more than signs and wonders! We need their spiritual authority in the churches today! Most churches (especially pastors) do not want to be accountable to anyone...sometimes not even the congregation!

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
James 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Verse 23 in the WEB reads:
James 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man beholding his natural face in a mirror;

The glass or mirror that James is speaking about is an illustration. Someone who looks into a mirror, walks away from it, and then has forgotten if he has combed his hair, etc., is not doing so well. He hasn't looked carefully. Also the "mirrors" at that time were made of brass. They didn't give a clear image. It was distorted. It was hard to see a good image.
But there would come a time when the NT canon would be complete and Paul looked forward to that day (He did not know that he would not see it). But when it came he would see himself more clearly and completely or perfectly than ever before. The Word of God is a mirror reflecting back right into our face who we really are. It tells us of our sin, convicts us of our every wrong. We clearly see who we really are especially having the completed NT.

We do not know as we are known! We have not come face to face with Him and we are not complete!

Yes, We can look in the Word of God and know what we are suppose to do and be...but that does not make US complete! We will not be complete until we see face to face.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" 1 John 3:2
Just because the Bible is complete does not mean we are perfect..and we will not be until he returns!

 

[DHK]

It was after the ascension that he sent these gifts to the church! The first 12 apostles were called out before the ascension!

Before his ascension:
He sent the 12 out; he sent the 70 out. Both times they did signs and wonders.
The church came into existence at Pentecost after the ascension. Thus the church needed the leadership of the apostles up until Paul had written his pastoral epistles which gave to the churches instructions to the pastors about order in the churches. It wasn't too long after that, that most of the apostles met their deaths (except for John).

Well, in my opinion by you ignoring this passage and 1 Cor. 13...you have (as I was in the past) been led into unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the apostles needed in the church today!

And you ignore 2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4 which specifically say that the signs and wonders, and the gifts of the Spirit were to authenticate the apostles and their message. Chapters 12-14 of 1Corinthians were written to rebuke the Corinthians of their misuse of these gifts, not to encourage their use.

The apostles did more than write the Bible! They did more than signs and wonders! We need their spiritual authority in the churches today! Most churches (especially pastors) do not want to be accountable to anyone...sometimes not even the congregation!

They are not alive today, and therefore don't need them. Are you a Spiritist that talks to the dead??
We have the Bible. That is our authority today--for all matters of faith and doctrine. The Apostles were their authority before the Bible was completed.

We do not know as we are known! We have not come face to face with Him and we are not complete!

I come face to face with Christ every time I read my Bible. If you are not complete in Christ, perhaps you are not saved.

Yes, We can look in the Word of God and know what we are suppose to do and be...but that does not make US complete! We will not be complete until we see face to face.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

You either are or you are not. It happens on this earth.
If you are not complete in Christ, then something is wrong.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" 1 John 3:2
Just because the Bible is complete does not mean we are perfect..and we will not be until he returns!

The word "perfect" means complete.
Are you complete in him or not:

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[awaken]

Before his ascension:
He sent the 12 out; he sent the 70 out. Both times they did signs and wonders.
The church came into existence at Pentecost after the ascension. Thus the church needed the leadership of the apostles up until Paul had written his pastoral epistles which gave to the churches instructions to the pastors about order in the churches. It wasn't too long after that, that most of the apostles met their deaths (except for John).

Again! YOur assumption with out scripture!

And you ignore 2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4 which specifically say that the signs and wonders, and the gifts of the Spirit were to authenticate the apostles and their message. Chapters 12-14 of 1Corinthians were written to rebuke the Corinthians of their misuse of these gifts, not to encourage their use.

NO, I do not ignore any scripture...but I also do not add to or limit the apostles to just one thing! The sign's and wonders authenticated the Word that the apostles preached!

They are not alive today, and therefore don't need them. Are you a Spiritist that talks to the dead??
We have the Bible. That is our authority today--for all matters of faith and doctrine. The Apostles were their authority before the Bible was completed

But look how far we have come away from the truth IN the Bible! Maybe if man would not have denied a gift given to the church...we would not have gotten so off of the truth!

I come face to face with Christ every time I read my Bible. If you are not complete in Christ, perhaps you are not saved.

My spirit is complete! but I do not know Him as he knows me and will not until I see him face to face!

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

You either are or you are not. It happens on this earth.
If you are not complete in Christ, then something is wrong.

The word "perfect" means complete.
Are you complete in him or not:

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

ONly My spirit...my soul and body is in a process!

 

[DHK]

Again! YOur assumption with out scripture!

I have made no assumptions. I have said anything that is factually wrong then point it out to me.

NO, I do not ignore any scripture...but I also do not add to or limit the apostles to just one thing! The sign's and wonders authenticated the Word that the apostles preached!

You are wrong, and therefore do ignore the Scriptures. Look again:
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
--They did both. But the Scriptures specifically says they were the "signs of an apostle." They authenticated the apostles themselves.

But look how far we have come away from the truth IN the Bible! Maybe if man would not have denied a gift given to the church...we would not have gotten so off of the truth!

Who is the all encompassing "we" you are speaking about? Speak for yourself. I have not deviated from the Word. It is my final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. I know what I believe and why I believe it. If you or others have deviated from the Word then you should do something about that.

My spirit is complete! but I do not know Him as he knows me and will not until I see him face to face!

Christ is God. He is omniscient. You will never know him as he knows you. You will be learning even in heaven. You will never be omniscient. That trait is reserved only for God.

ONly My spirit...my soul and body is in a process!

You will only grow in your spirit if you keep in the word and in prayer.
The soul is equivalent to your mind.
This earth is still under the curse and subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That means your mind and body, as you grow older, decays. If you are lucky you wont end up with some form of dementia or Alzheimer's where your mind quickly decays and the memory especially is affected so that soon the affected one doesn't even recognize his own loved ones. Perhaps near the end of your life you may be confined to a wheel chair because of the decay of your body, too weak to stand any longer.
Paul tells us in Romans that "we wait for the redemption of our body."
Right now your mind (soul) and body are in a process of decay, not completion.
We must wait for the resurrection for out bodies to be "complete".

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course it is irrelevant to you! If it was relevant...it would blow your theory out of the water!

THen continue rest your faith on your own unbelief....


No, but you do have a problem on when they will cease according to 1 Cor. 13:8 "then face to face...then shall I know even as also I AM KNOWN"

Would you agree that the office and the Gifts theApsotles displayed wee linked together? To have those gifts one HAD to be called an Apsotle of Christ?

So for those gifts to still still be in the church, must have Apostles , correct?

they MUST pass 2 tests to qualifiy for that...

See and be commissioned by the risen christ, and have authority to write scriptures in a revlation from God sense!

Whoin history since Apostle John do you see who qualified?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think the 11 apostles made a mistake to appoint Matthias an apostle. If he was an apostle, no testimony to his success as one exists.

There is no possibility the apostles were faultless or sinless. In fact Paul was the one who judged and opposed inter alia Peter in his SINNING.

The twelve pillars represent twelve apostles - twelve OF them; nothing in the bare number prohibits there were more than 12 apostles. But there came no new apostles after the first and only generation of apostles. That is what is important; not how many they were.

James the brother of Jesus ... was he an apostle? They say he was the LEADER of the apostles; but was he one of the 12? As far as I can see, he wasn't.