Are these actual verses or commentaries?
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Response to [member's names not allowed in thread title] on Partial Preterism
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I often wake up in the night with a hymn - occasionally a new hymn based on Scripture reading or recent discussions.
The development of that hymn, originally written with a Shaker tune in my head, is in this thread -
The Fulfilment/PP approach is actually more literal than the futurists, who weave a bizarre scenario that cannot be tested by Scripture as only the return of Christ will see it.
Me too but I lean heavily on the historical side... Not down throughout history but more towards the history of the early church... Those are my thoughts... Brother Glen
Wow! This is new to me! All I ever hear about in protest from futurists are 'second coming and resurrection', 'second coming and resurrection', 'second coming and resurrection', ....
Please enlighten us to what you're referring.
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Both full and partial preterism are false.
The events which occurred in 66-70 AD were the "days of vengeance" on the Jews that Jesus prophesied. The eschatological events did NOT then occur, which is made very-obvious by the course of history.
Preterists bend over backward trying to do two things - trying to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status and trying to substitute other historic events for the actual coming eschatological events of prophecy. Neither of those approaches work! The main proof is that the world has gone RIGHT ON since 70 AD
The facts of such events as the founding of the new Jewish sovereign nation, the great falling-away, etc. are lost on preterists who are submerged in their own dogma.
The events which occurred in 66-70 AD were the "days of vengeance" on the Jews that Jesus prophesied. The eschatological events did NOT then occur, which is made very-obvious by the course of history.
Preterists bend over backward trying to do two things - trying to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status and trying to substitute other historic events for the actual coming eschatological events of prophecy. Neither of those approaches work! The main proof is that the world has gone RIGHT ON since 70 AD
The facts of such events as the founding of the new Jewish sovereign nation, the great falling-away, etc. are lost on preterists who are submerged in their own dogma.
Fulfilment theology begins with a simple belief that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke absolute truth.
His Olivet prophecy concerning the days of vengeance on the generation that rejected him & the prophets, and wise men, and scribes he would send concluded with the words:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The question is simple - do we believe the Lord Jesus or do we reject his inspired words because robycop3 says what Jesus said would happen didn't happen.
Don't argue about "this generation" until you've read Matthew 23 which includes the denunciation:
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
I think you are saying that such events are signs of the return of Jesus, but Jesus said there would be no such warnings -
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Do we believe the words of our Lord Jesus - or was he mistaken, or misleading us?
One of my disagreements with PP is that they take Revelation too literally. Symbols are explained in prophecy which give us a key to unlock other prophecies where similar symbols are used. Dispensationalism is just a modern fantasy. 1 Tim. 4: 1.
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Partial Preterists take Revelation too literally? You got to be kidding. Since many PP's are amillennialists, they see the language of Revelation more symbolic than literal.
Except for the 1000 years.
They take the temple to be the literal temple, the witnesses/candlesticks/olive trees to be literal people, or the law and prophets even thought Rev chap one gives the clue that candlesticks are churches.
Revelation 1:1, says that the vision is signified, that is in figures or symbols.
That was my reaction, too.
That seems to be a golden rule with prophecy - start at the end, then there's no chance of understanding!
David said:
But you need to read the first 3 verses - they put Revelation into its time frame - BEFORE AD 70.
That is the great strength of PP/Fulfilment theology. Symbolic language requires literal understanding. We're reading about real historical events veiled in symbolic language. Events are predicted & seen to be fulfilled. We should have no time for the scoffers who are still waiting for the dramatic events of Jesus coming in those days of vengeance of Luke 21 & Mat. 24.David said:
Look at Revelation with eyes opened by Jesus' Olivet prophecy, & prophecy in the Letters, including 2 Thessalonians 2.
Covenanter. You know we have disagreed about this before. There can be no doubt Revelation was written after AD 70. I have considered your writings to be more literal than symbolic. You consider most of the book fulfilled before AD70 which means it has no comfort for the church through the ages. Futurism considers that apart from the first few chapters, it has no reference to the church. Both I believe are false teachings. Continual Historicism however believes that the book comforts the church in its tribulations through the ages. Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews in the Roman war and in revelation on the Christians in its persecutions throughout history, mainly by the RCC, the great enemy of the church described in the book. From about AD1200 the church recognised that the pope is Antichrist, but in more recent times preterists say, "Oh no, he was in the past." futurists say, "Oh no, he is in the future." Both teachings let Rome off the hook, and have encouraged it and enabled it to get to the position it has today, especially in Churches Together. One writer a couple of centuries or so ago wrote that he struggled to understand Revelation till he read Gibbon's Decline And Fall, and he was amazed to see the visions acted out in history.
It would be helpful if you used the 'Enter' key to break up long posts.
And the generation that sees the beginning of "these things" will see'em all.[/B]
Can YOU prove they've already happened? OF COURSE NOT! The world has gone RIGHT ON, UNCHANGED since 70 AD
Those events were the "DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Jesus prophesied. The Roman invasion & the events accompanying it were the fulfillment of those "days". That was NOT the eschatological events Jesus later prophesied in the Olivet Discourse.
I am NOT mistaken. The events Jesus prophesied that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER, with no mistaking them for anything else.
Jerusalem and the temple were LITERALLY destroyed, with not one stone remaining atop another of the temple, jest as jesus said. (The Wailing Wall is part of the wall that was built around the temple complex, not part of the temple itself.)
Jesus prophesied war/rumor of war. Was/is there war/rumor of war in the past and today?
Jesus prophesied Christians would be persecuted, with decapitations. Has ISIS & Al-Qaeda, among others, fulfilled this lately, not to mention those of the past?
Jesus prophesied Jerusalem would be trod underfoot til the time of the gentiles was up. Is this still going on? How about the constant stream of Muslims going to & from Al-Aqsa Mosque & the Dome of the Rock? How about the steady parade of non-Jewish Christians going to & from the Christian shrines within the city? Evidently, the time of the gentiles is still ongoing, as proven by empirical evidence.
Now, has there been a great, godless world ruler with a miracle-working false prophet as a deputy? If so, NAME THEM!
Have they issued the marka the beast? if so, describe it. Can you still buy & sell as you wish, using cash or a mac card?
Has the worst tribulation in history hit earth yet, with all life in the seas dying, all green grass burned up, and a rain of rocks falling?
Most-importantly of all, HAS JESUS RETURNED, IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, SEEN BY ALL, AS HE HIMSELF SAID HE WOULD?
No, JESUS' PROPHECIES WERE & ARE SPOT ON. What's SPOT-OFF are man's private interpretations of those that haven't yet been fulfilled, especially the timing of when they'll occur.
I believe history and reality have completely disproved the man-made notion that all or most of Jesus' Olivet Discourse eschatological prophecies, and the accompanying prophecies of Daniel, Zechariah, the Revelation, etc. have NOT yet been fulfilled, and that preterism, full or partial, is completely-FALSE. I believe certain people here oughtta get rid of all their works by Alcazar, Gentry, Preston, Sproul, etc. & focus on their BIBLES, along with some reference boox of world history, to free themselves of this man-made false doctrine.
Remember Alcazar's purpose in writing about it - he was seeking to keep the line of popes being labeled the antichrist, which, of course, is another false doctrine itself. He was trying to counter false with false. (I reckon "Two wrongs don't make a right" had no meaning to him.)
A little aside that perhaps Dr. Cassidy can help us with - there's a good deal of discussion in various places about when the Revelation was given to John. The majority seem opined that it was given near the end of Domitian's reign.(ended 96 AD) while many believe it was given before 66 AD.
Absolutely.
Elliott says Nero didn't deport anyone, just killed them.
While I agree on Covenanter on a lot, mostly Dan 9. It is a prophecy of the Messiah not the Antichrist. Matt 24 was fulfilled in AD70 up to the verse which begins "but" which signifies a change of subject, but that doesn't reflect on Revelation which was written to the churches, and concerns the church not the Jews. John tells us that antichrists came out of the church, that is they were apostate Christians. You can probably find John Huss' letters on Antichrist online, very interesting.
The Jews were to be exiled amongst the nations and Jerusalem would be trod underfoot till the time of the gentiles was up. As the Jews are now in charge of Jerusalem, it seems the times of he gentiles is up.
I don't see the Dome of the Rock has any significance seeing that temple worship is finished. Paul says "You are the temple of God", that is the church, which is why the temple in Revelation refers to the church. The early church writers recognised this, and they were correct.
I think you are wasting your time with an unteachable spirit, but I will try.
Irenaeus (c125 c200), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30).
Clement of Alexandria (155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
"When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated" (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
"In the fourteenth then after Nero (69+14=83), Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse" (Lives of Illustrious Men 9). [Domitian because Emperor in 81, Banished John in 83, John was released in 96 when Domitian was killed. John died in 202.]
But none of this will do any good. They don't care. They know what they know and refuse to be confused by the facts. Kinda like Crazymatics.
Absolutely
A simple reading of Revelation leads to the truth that events prophesied would take place shortly ... for the time is at hand. The events prophesied included the destruction of the great city – which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt – where also their Lord was crucified.
There can be no doubt Revelation was written BEFORE AD 70.
Isaiah 1:1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
.....
9 Unless the Lord Almighty had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah!
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9 Unless the Lord Almighty had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah!
Slight disagreement here. While Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, there are parts of it occupied by Palestinians & Arabs. And if the Jews tried to FULLY occupy Jerusalem & keep all gentiles out, the GENTILES would go to war with them at once.
And the 'time of the gentiles', or "fullness", as some translations read, apparently means that when God's pre-determined number of gentile Christians is reached, THEN the time of the gentiles will be up. Right now, there are far-more gentiles coming to Jesus than Jews.
And while TRUE temple-worship is over, don't forget the Jews fully intend to construct a new one. They have the instruments to be used in it already made, and are breeding the animals to be used in temple rites, such as red heifers. In other words, they fully intend to return to complete Old Testament worship rites & beliefs While this won't be TRUE worship, of course, as they'll leave JESUS out of it, most of the world will consider this temple to be holy to God. It'll be the place where the antichrist will commit the "abomination of desolation". remember, the AC will end the daily sacrifices, etc. at this temple.
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