Response to [member's names not allowed in thread title] on Partial Preterism

[David Kent]

[

Do you know what the "powers of the heavens" are? they're the apparent courses thru the sky the celestial bodies follow. They haven't been noticeably changed since the time of Hezekiah, 700s BC, when the sun temporarily reversed its course at Isaiah's prayer.[/QUOTE]

That is another misquote of scripture, it doesn't say "the sun temporarily reversed its course" it says "11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz."

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 1:21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar;

How would you understand that?

 

[Covenanter]

Again, the AOL will be when the "beast/antichrist" defiles the new temple the Jews will build.

Daniel 9:26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

So we see it was the people of THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME who destroyed J & the temple. Titus was already with them; he was NOT then yet to come!

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Yes, the AOD is to be SET UP. Titus & his army didn't set anything up in the temple. And Daniel 12:11 also says the AOD will be SET UP. Now, what does it consist of?

Rev. 13: 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And where will he do it?

2 Thess. 2: 2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

As for Daniel 12, Danny had asked gabriel when "the end", specifically, "the outcome of these events" would be, and Gabe gave the answer of 1260 days from the time the AOD was SET UP, with a final figure of 1335 days. So, obviously, the AOD has NOT yet occurred!





Here's Luke 21:20 in modern English: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that ITS desolation is near.

So, we see Luke was writing about JERUSALEM ITSELF, not the AOD.



No, there WILL be only one AOD. Had it already occurred, gabriel's message to Daniel wes incorrect. I take GABRIEL'S word over that of whatever groddy source you got your misinterps of some Scriptures from.

Gross & deliberate misinterpretation of Daniel 9.

24 “Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.​

That details the saving work of the Most Holy Messiah.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[fn] shall be built again, and the wall,[fn]
Even in troublesome times.​

Messiah will come after 69 of the 70 weeks - referring to his baptism & anointing. The rebuilding will be in troubled times detailed in Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi. Events in the 62 weeks were prophesied in subsequent chapters of Daniel & recorded in the Apocrypha, particularly concerning Antiochus Epiphanes.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.​

Gabriel doesn't give a timetable, but we know from the Gospels that Messiah was cut off after 3 years of ministry, that is in the middle of the 70th week. Before being cut off he further prophesied the destruction of city & sanctuary by the armies of the prince.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”​

Messiah confirmed the Covenant during his ministry & made the New Covenant in his blood, preached by the Apostles & celebrated in the Lord's Supper. That in effect finished sacrifice & offering, even though they continued until the destruction. During the second half of the 70th week The Gospel was preached & many thousands of Israel were saved by the New Covenant. Sadly the Jewish leaders declared their opposition to the preaching of Christ crucified, & through Stephen the Holy Spirit declared them "uncircumcised." All that remained for the city now deserted by God was desolation & destruction. That occurred according to the Lord's timetable - before the passing of the generation that rejected their Messiah.

The eagle standards of the Roman army were an abomination to the Jews. Jesus prophesies them as vultures gathering to feed on the dead.

“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."​

 

[David Kent]

The eagle standards of the Roman army were an abomination to the Jews. Jesus prophesies them as vultures gathering to feed on the dead.
“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

The Roman armies sacrificed to their standards in the holy place, when they entered it.

 

[robycop3]

Alcazar was a preterist and I am not. I don't know what the others teach, my teaching is that of the Waldensians, Hussites and Lollards, all long before any of those you quoted. and long before Cardinal Bellarmine and other Jesuits introduced the futurist. The pope is Antichrist, Rome hates that which is why she promoted 1stly Preterism, (Alcazar) then 2ndly Futurism, by Ribera, Bellarmine and others..

FUTURISM

Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

• Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
• Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
• Abolish the Christian religion.
• Deny Jesus Christ.
• Be received by the Jews.
• Pretend to be God.
• Kill the two witnesses of God.
• Conquer the world.
• 
  
• Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis h�reticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).
  
  Volume I (Book 3 - De Summo Pontifice), 1608 printing.
  A 19th century printing:
  
  Volume I (Book 3 - De Summo Pontifice)
  Volume II
  Volume III
  Volume IV
  Volume IV Part II
• 
  
• Michael Walpole
  Available Online: A Treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole.
  
  The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that Antichrist is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus (1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal Antichrist, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866!
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

We have lots of nonsense form jeezits on both sides of the fence, as well as astraddle it.

Now, while there were some popes who were bad fellers, such as Rodrigo Borgia, no pope nor nthe line of popes has been "THE" antichrist, the prophesied 'beast'. He hasn't come yet. Now, a pope might become the beast's false-prophet deputy, but i can't see any pope becoming popular enough with the non-Catholic world to become the "beast'.

It's been quite a game for a lotta years to name virtually every male celebrity, famous or infamous, as the beast/antichrist. (Latest candidate-Donald Trump.) However, they're all wrong. I believe that Napoleon and Hitler were the two forerunners of the true 'beast', and God allowed them to go their merry ways for awhile as a warning to the world of how easily such a man can come. Both came from virtually nowhere. Both were totally-evil. Both were virtually unstoppable militarily or politically for awhile. but God yanked the run grom under them after a few years each.

But the true 'beast' will be empowered by Satan himself. Scripture says he will not be overcome by man. Unlike Napoleon or Hitler, he will be universally popular. He will receive what will appear to be a mortal wound, but he will recover. And he will rule the world. THIS IS SCRIPTURAL, not something some jeezit invented.

He may be alive now, or he may not be born yet. But, O Christians, when we see one hugely-popular man heading toward world domination, look up, for our redemption draws near!

 

[robycop3]

Gross & deliberate misinterpretation of Daniel 9.

24 “Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.​

That details the saving work of the Most Holy Messiah.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[fn] shall be built again, and the wall,[fn]
Even in troublesome times.​

Messiah will come after 69 of the 70 weeks - referring to his baptism & anointing. The rebuilding will be in troubled times detailed in Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi. Events in the 62 weeks were prophesied in subsequent chapters of Daniel & recorded in the Apocrypha, particularly concerning Antiochus Epiphanes.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.​

Gabriel doesn't give a timetable, but we know from the Gospels that Messiah was cut off after 3 years of ministry, that is in the middle of the 70th week. Before being cut off he further prophesied the destruction of city & sanctuary by the armies of the prince.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”​

Messiah confirmed the Covenant during his ministry & made the New Covenant in his blood, preached by the Apostles & celebrated in the Lord's Supper. That in effect finished sacrifice & offering, even though they continued until the destruction. During the second half of the 70th week The Gospel was preached & many thousands of Israel were saved by the New Covenant. Sadly the Jewish leaders declared their opposition to the preaching of Christ crucified, & through Stephen the Holy Spirit declared them "uncircumcised." All that remained for the city now deserted by God was desolation & destruction. That occurred according to the Lord's timetable - before the passing of the generation that rejected their Messiah.

The eagle standards of the Roman army were an abomination to the Jews. Jesus prophesies them as vultures gathering to feed on the dead.

“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."​

Yes, the prophesied "days of vengeance" fell upon that generation of Jews. But then, a MUCH-GREATER evil befell the Jews a coupla generations later in 135-136 AD when Hadrian kicked them outta their land and gave it to the Philistines. That punishment continued til mid-1945 when the nazis fell & some Jews began taking revenge upon them.

And Jesus' prophecy had nothing to do with Roman eagle stqandards! THAT'S NONSENSE!

 

[robycop3]

The Roman armies sacrificed to their standards in the holy place, when they entered it.

HORSE FEATHERS!

What an imagination!

You should write for Marvel Comix!

Jesus' words about eagles gathering was an analogy of His saints being drawn to Him at His return. That's the context in which He spoke those words. he said them right after saying His return will be visible as lightning.

Likening the eagles on Roman standards to something that defiled the temple is one of the goofiest preterist excuses of all, and they have plenty of others!

Again, the SIMPLE TRUTH is, the prophesied eschatological events, beginning with the coming of the "beast", simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED. That FACT nollies any ald all pret pronouncements. Those goofy pronouncements are equivalent to someone having said on Aug. 19 that the predicted solar eclipse across the USA for 2017 had already occurred.

So, gentlemen, you can continue to rattle off your pronouncements til your keyboards melt, but they won't change a thing, and no one with a lick of sinse and bible knowledge will believe them. the world has gone RIGHT ON, unchanged. It did NOT change in 70 AD. NONE of your excuses will compensate for your LACK OF PROOF for your statements. you're simply stuck with a false doctrine, which you're too proud to admit is false, despite its total lack of sustaining proof.

 

[robycop3]

I hope the lack of response here the last few days is because the posters with preterist tendencies have sat down with their Bibles and history boox & are seeing the complete lack of EVIDENCE that would support preterism and similar doctrines.

 

[Reformed]

I hope the lack of response here the last few days is because the posters with preterist tendencies have sat down with their Bibles and history boox & are seeing the complete lack of EVIDENCE that would support preterism and similar doctrines.

Funny. I was thinking just the opposite.

 

[Covenanter]

I hope the lack of response here the last few days is because the posters with preterist tendencies have sat down with their Bibles and history boox & are seeing the complete lack of EVIDENCE that would support preterism and similar doctrines.

You're badly mistaken. A discussion with you is with someone who rejects the explicit words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Your reasoning is carnal. Not just on this topic.

 

[robycop3]

You're badly mistaken. A discussion with you is with someone who rejects the explicit words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Your reasoning is carnal. Not just on this topic.

No, YOURS is carnal and incorrect. The prophesied eschatological events SIMPLY HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED, & there's NO substituting anything else for those EXACT EVENTS. Jesus' prophecies MUST come to pass to the letter, as written in their original language of writing - EVERY LAST WORD!

To sustain your preterist view, you'd hafta **PROVE** those events have already occurred, & ya just can't do it. They're entirely-absent from history.

Gonna try to tell us Nero was the "beast"? OK, then, WHO was his deputy, the false prophet? WHEN did he issue the marka the beast, & what did it look like? WHEN was he ever in Jerusalem to have committed the AOD? The revelator angel told John no man could overcome the beast, but wasn't Nero overthrown by General Galba & the Praetorian Guard? And, was Nero & his deputy cast alive into gehenna, as the angel told John the beast willl be? No, he had his secretary Epaphroditus stab him with a sword, and he died in fronta the men sent to arrest him. So much for Nero.

WHEN did it rain rocks worldwide? WHEN did a great meteor strike any sea, killing all life in it? WHEN was all green grass burnt up?

And finally, WHEN did JESUS return in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL, as He Himself said He would?

Now, what's carnal is believing all those things have already happened, without one quark of **EVIDENCE ** they have! Ya might as well tell us a spaceship crewed by little green men from the planed Algore landed in Times Square this AM, but the TV networx missed it. It's just-as-believable as YOUR humbug is!

What's carnal is your private interp of Jesus' words, especially the Greek rendered "this generation" in many English Bible versions.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, YOURS is carnal and incorrect. The prophesied eschatological events SIMPLY HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED, & there's NO substituting anything else for those EXACT EVENTS. Jesus' prophecies MUST come to pass to the letter, as written in their original language of writing - EVERY LAST WORD!

To sustain your preterist view, you'd hafta **PROVE** those events have already occurred, & ya just can't do it. They're entirely-absent from history.

Gonna try to tell us Nero was the "beast"? OK, then, WHO was his deputy, the false prophet? WHEN did he issue the marka the beast, & what did it look like? WHEN was he ever in Jerusalem to have committed the AOD? The revelator angel told John no man could overcome the beast, but wasn't Nero overthrown by General Galba & the Praetorian Guard? And, was Nero & his deputy cast alive into gehenna, as the angel told John the beast willl be? No, he had his secretary Epaphroditus stab him with a sword, and he died in fronta the men sent to arrest him. So much for Nero.

WHEN did it rain rocks worldwide? WHEN did a great meteor strike any sea, killing all life in it? WHEN was all green grass burnt up?

And finally, WHEN did JESUS return in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL, as He Himself said He would?

Now, what's carnal is believing all those things have already happened, without one quark of **EVIDENCE ** they have! Ya might as well tell us a spaceship crewed by little green men from the planed Algore landed in Times Square this AM, but the TV networx missed it. It's just-as-believable as YOUR humbug is!

What's carnal is your private interp of Jesus' words, especially the Greek rendered "this generation" in many English Bible versions.

I think that it is better to render this as being the generation that is alive when all these things come to pass will not pass away!

 

[TCassidy]

"Generation." From the Greek γενεα meaning "an age" or "a time."

Matthew 24:34 Most certainly I tell you, this age (γενεα) will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.

Compare Matthew 11:16 “But to what shall I compare this age (γενεα)? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces, who call to their companions
7 and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you didn’t dance. We mourned for you, and you didn’t lament.’

 

[Reformed]

No, YOURS is carnal and incorrect.

Brother, this type of argumentation, from both sides, does little to advance the discussion.

"I am right and you are wrong!"

"No. I am right and you are wrong!"

"On point" discussion helps us understand each other without either side having to abandon its convictions. As one who held to the Futurist view with a passion, I can appreciate the zeal it brings out in those who believe it is correct.

There is some common ground between Futurism and Partial-Preterism (or as I prefer to call it, Orthodox Preterism). Both sides believe Jesus will return. The Futurist believes in the rapture and then the second coming, whereas the Partial-Preterist is not looking for a rapture, but just the second coming. Both views believe in a Great White Throne judgment at the end of the age, and just before the eternal state. To be sure, there are plenty of differences, but it is nowhere near the differences both sides have with Full Preterism.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think that it is better to render this as being the generation that is alive when all these things come to pass will not pass away!

Except Jesus spoke of that generation when He was preaching to them on earth.

 

[robycop3]

Except Jesus spoke of that generation when He was preaching to them on earth.

That's the reason Satan starts the false doctrines such as the one we're discussing. It's part of the Christian's duty to work against those false doctrines.

 

[robycop3]

Brother, this type of argumentation, from both sides, does little to advance the discussion.

"I am right and you are wrong!"

"No. I am right and you are wrong!"

"On point" discussion helps us understand each other without either side having to abandon its convictions. As one who held to the Futurist view with a passion, I can appreciate the zeal it brings out in those who believe it is correct.

There is some common ground between Futurism and Partial-Preterism (or as I prefer to call it, Orthodox Preterism). Both sides believe Jesus will return. The Futurist believes in the rapture and then the second coming, whereas the Partial-Preterist is not looking for a rapture, but just the second coming. Both views believe in a Great White Throne judgment at the end of the age, and just before the eternal state. To be sure, there are plenty of differences, but it is nowhere near the differences both sides have with Full Preterism.

I have offered both the full and partial preterist every opportunity to PROVE me wrong by presenting EVIDENCE the prophesied eschatological events have already occurred. I know there ISN'T ANY, so I must question the SOURCE of their continued belief in preterism in the face of a total lack of **PROOF** of its veracity.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are generally not counted as part of preterism except where the pret tries to add the coming of the beast/antichrist, great trib, etc. to those historical events. Now is war & rumor of war, etc. counted among preterism's doctrines.

Partial preterism is just-as-wrong, as Jesus said in Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

So, if the great trib occurred in 66-70 AD. Jesus is long-overdue! But, as He is always right, the simple FACT is, the great trib is still future.

 

[robycop3]

I think that it is better to render this as being the generation that is alive when all these things come to pass will not pass away!

Given the historical facts, that's the only correct logical conclusion.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's the reason Satan starts the false doctrines such as the one we're discussing. It's part of the Christian's duty to work against those false doctrines.

Except Jesus said....there are some standing HERE....that shall not see death until these things come to pass.....it happened in their lifetime.

 

[Yeshua1]

Except Jesus said....there are some standing HERE....that shall not see death until these things come to pass.....it happened in their lifetime.

They saw Him coming into His Kingdom in a sense at the Mount of transfiguration, and Jesus teaching on Endtimes was to the current temple situation in AD 70 yet to happen, but also to those events still yet to come to pass! paul description of the Second Coming has not yet happened in history, has it?