In like fashion, when the Bible states that things must happen soon, quickly means not that it was to happen then soon, but when it starts to happen, will be soon to pass!Given the historical facts, that's the only correct logical conclusion.
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
In like fashion, when the Bible states that things must happen soon, quickly means not that it was to happen then soon, but when it starts to happen, will be soon to pass!Given the historical facts, that's the only correct logical conclusion.
,They saw Him coming into His Kingdom in a sense at the Mount of transfiguration
yes...the question that must be examined is...was it the end of the age? or the end of the world?and Jesus teaching on Endtimes was to the current temple situation in AD 70 yet to happen
Jesus came in Judgment in 70 ad....He did not physically come to earth as the Second coming.That I believe will be on the last day., but also to those events still yet to come to pass! paul description of the Second Coming has not yet happened in history, has it?
Except Jesus said....there are some standing HERE....that shall not see death until these things come to pass.....it happened in their lifetime.
I believe preterism, buth full & partial, & similar doctrines have been proven false beyond any reasonable argument.
Does Ezekiel's temple prophecy await a future fulfilment?
”robycop3” said:Evidently, it does, during the millenium.
The temple the Jews are now planning to build will likely be built according to the "blueprint" of the past temples, it won't really be a "temple of God' because JESUS is not in the formula. However, I doubt if most of the world will see it that way.
Not only will Zeke's temple be far-larger, the context of the surrounding Scriptures shows this will be in millenial times, with idyllic conditions, etc.
Does Ezekiel's temple prophecy await a future fulfilment?
What purpose does a rebuilt stone temple serve?
Why is a local temple needed?
Are renewed animal sacrifices for sin utterly condemned by the sacrifice of Christ?
How can a carnal priesthood offer acceptable sacrifices for sin?
Is Ezekiel answering Isaiah's challenge by giving details of a future physical temple ? Isaiah 66, Ezekiel 40
Could the vision be to encourage the captives in Babylonia by assuring them they would return & rebuild the temple?
Should we understand the vision spiritually, as the physical & central place of worship & sacrifice would be the Holy Spirit living in the redeemed people of God, the body of Christ, the Church?
If the temple vision should be understood in terms of the present Church, what are the implications for the OT visions regarding the restoring of Israel?
[URL='https://www.baptistboard.com/members/robycop3.5296/']robycop3[/URL] said:You seem to have a hard time believing Scripture LITERALLY. But most Scripture IS literal! Otherwise, men could make it read however they wanted, to match their imaginations they've turned into doctrines. Re-writing Scripture is one of the main developmental tools of the many pseudo/quasi-Christian cults, sects, & false doctrines men have invented. Well, it WON'T WORK! that's why God has given several warnings for men not to add to or taka away from His word, and that includes inventing new meanings for some passages that are against some man-made doctrine.
the scriptures indicate that God still is to work with Israel and the Jews right before Jesus second coming, do you?I do have a VERY hard time believing in a future, millennial reinstatement of the old covenant with its rituals, sacrifices, focus on Abraham's physical descendants, rebuilt temple & territorial allotments, etc. It is a system of teaching that completely overrides the New Covenant - Everlasting Covenant - and all that the LORD Jesus Christ came to accomplish by his life, death, resurrection & ascension, and all that he commissioned his Apostles to preach & write.
You call your teaching "literal" yet you reject the literal teaching of the New Covenant Scriptures. And the whole premil system is according to your accusation: "men could make it read however they wanted, to match their imaginations they've turned into doctrines."
There is no place for a rebuilt man-made temple with its sacrifices & priestly worship in the New Covenant Scriptures. No place at all. The literal fulfilment of the temple prophecies is explicitly declared to be the church - Jew & Gentile built together as living stones for spiritual worship.
Eph. 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
You seem to have a message to orthodox Jews that is rather different from the Apostolic message:
Acts 3:17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Peter underlines that message in the next chapter:
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”You expect a literal fulfilment of the the OT prophecies concerning Israel. So did Jesus' disciples:
Luke 24:19 And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. ......
......
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
The true "orthodox Jews" who believed the Scriptures welcomed the Apostolic Gospel in their thousands, including priests & Pharisees. Sadly the Jewish leaders refused to believe the fulfilment of the Scriptures declared before their eyes. They had seen & heard Jesus & seen his miracles -
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
There is no other Gospel for orthodox Jews or anyone else who refuses to repent & believe in Jesus. They are continuing under the curse.
I do have a VERY hard time believing in a future, millennial reinstatement of the old covenant with its rituals, sacrifices, focus on Abraham's physical descendants, rebuilt temple & territorial allotments, etc. It is a system of teaching that completely overrides the New Covenant - Everlasting Covenant - and all that the LORD Jesus Christ came to accomplish by his life, death, resurrection & ascension, and all that he commissioned his Apostles to preach & write.
You call your teaching "literal" yet you reject the literal teaching of the New Covenant Scriptures. And the whole premil system is according to your accusation: "men could make it read however they wanted, to match their imaginations they've turned into doctrines."
There is no place for a rebuilt man-made temple with its sacrifices & priestly worship in the New Covenant Scriptures. No place at all. The literal fulfilment of the temple prophecies is explicitly declared to be the church - Jew & Gentile built together as living stones for spiritual worship.
Eph. 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
You seem to have a message to orthodox Jews that is rather different from the Apostolic message:
Acts 3:17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Peter underlines that message in the next chapter:
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”You expect a literal fulfilment of the the OT prophecies concerning Israel. So did Jesus' disciples:
Luke 24:19 And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. ......
......
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
The true "orthodox Jews" who believed the Scriptures welcomed the Apostolic Gospel in their thousands, including priests & Pharisees. Sadly the Jewish leaders refused to believe the fulfilment of the Scriptures declared before their eyes. They had seen & heard Jesus & seen his miracles -
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
There is no other Gospel for orthodox Jews or anyone else who refuses to repent & believe in Jesus. They are continuing under the curse.
I think that his main problem was with the temple of the Millennium....Sir, I know many orthodox Jews, and know much of what they believe. they simply don't believe the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant or that Jesus is Messiah. And they're just itching to renew the OC ceremonies & observances in a new temple in Jerusalem.
And I'm NOT rejecting the NC Scriptures, not one word of'em! You're inventing stuff again.
Not ONCE did I say the Jews' renewal of the OC worship will be legitimate, any more than Islam is. But a new temple is necessary for the "abomination of desolation" to be performed in, and to fulfill daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
I believe SCRIPTURE, not the hooey of Alcazar, Preston, Gentry, Sproul, etc.
So I understand, but I do not see the relevance to prophecy.Sir, I know many orthodox Jews, and know much of what they believe. they simply don't believe the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant or that Jesus is Messiah. And they're just itching to renew the OC ceremonies & observances in a new temple in Jerusalem.
If you believed the NC Scriptures, you would see the temple worship prophecies fulfilled in the worship wherever Christians worship. e.g. Ephesians 2, 1 Cor. 3, 1 Peter 2And I'm NOT rejecting the NC Scriptures, not one word of'em! You're inventing stuff again.
Daniel 9 concerns Gabriel's 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks ended in the 30s AD. Comparing Matthew 24 with Luke 21, it is clear that the abomination of desolation was by the Romans.Not ONCE did I say the Jews' renewal of the OC worship will be legitimate, any more than Islam is. But a new temple is necessary for the "abomination of desolation" to be performed in, and to fulfill daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
I believe SCRIPTURE, not the hooey of Alcazar, Preston, Gentry, Sproul, etc.
I think that his main problem was with the temple of the Millennium....
So I understand, but I do not see the relevance to prophecy.
If you believed the NC Scriptures, you would see the temple worship prophecies fulfilled in the worship wherever Christians worship. e.g. Ephesians 2, 1 Cor. 3, 1 Peter 2
The idea of a rebuilt temple for animal sacrifices for sin is repugnant to NC teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.
Daniel 9 concerns Gabriel's 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks ended in the 30s AD. Comparing Matthew 24 with Luke 21, it is clear that the abomination of desolation was by the Romans.
Mat. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
As Gabriel prophesied, the city & sanctuary were destroyed. And the only "vision & prophecy" outstanding after the destruction is the return of our Lord for resurrection & judgment. Jesus is the fulfilment of OC prophecy.
I believe SCRIPTURE, not the inventions of Darby & Scofield & co. And I believe the NC Scriptures are the key to understanding the OC. Your interpretation of the temple prophecy has no support in the NC Scriptures. NONE.
As Jesus explained:
John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
For those who wish to have all revelation already fulfilled in AD 70, when in history did Jesus return and slay the man of Sin, and raised up and glorified the body of Christ?Right now, most jews don't recognize Jesus as Messiah. And those practicing "Judaism" still go by the Old Covenant. God said He will purge false worship from their hearts.
Well, many of the practices of Islam, bhuddism, etc. & many of the pseudo/quasi-Christian cults are also repugnant to NC teachings as well, but they are still going on today. Again, I never said the renewal of OC worship was LEGITIMATE worship, but it WILL occur again when the Jews build their new temple.
MMRRPP ! WRONG !
The AOD will be when the antichrist & his false prophet set up the AC's statue in the coming temple, which the FP will make speak by Satan's power, & his boss declares himself to be God while in that temple. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet.
And you've completely bypassed the Revelation, a part of Scripture that God gace a stern warning against altering in any way. Ignoring it is tantamount to altering it. Besides that, you've ignored Matt. 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The Greek word here rendered "life" is 'sark', which means ""flesh"", man or animal. Obviously, that great trib has not yet occurred. But if you read about the trib plagues in Revelation, especially Ch. 16, you can easily see they could exterminate all animal life on earth were they to persist long enough. Again, it's obvious they haven't yet occurred.
Also, there were several months between the first Roman siege of Jerusalem under Vespasian, & the siege that finally captured J, under Titus. Thus, people had plenty of time to flee, so this obviously was NOT the siege of Matt. 24.
For the umpteenth time, I have NEVER said a renewal of OC worship methods is PROPER worship! But it WILL be revived! It'll be just another system of false worship, along with many others now practiced.
And how many times does GOD hafta say something for it to be so? He said the sacrifices, etc. would be stopped, & the context does NOT indicate it was when the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple.
So, there won't be a 3rd temple? Not according to SCRIPTURE!!
2 Thess. 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Please read Rev. 13 as an expansion of these Scriptures.
OBVIOUSLY, THAT HASN'T YET OCCURRED !
You say you believe Scripture? Then, try believing ALL of it, not just the parts you like!
For those who wish to have all revelation already fulfilled in AD 70, when in history did Jesus return and slay the man of Sin, and raised up and glorified the body of Christ?
We are discussing the prophesied temple of Ezek. 40-48. NOT corrupt worship of unbelievers of all sorts.Right now, most jews don't recognize Jesus as Messiah. And those practicing "Judaism" still go by the Old Covenant. God said He will purge false worship from their hearts.
Well, many of the practices of Islam, bhuddism, etc. & many of the pseudo/quasi-Christian cults are also repugnant to NC teachings as well, but they are still going on today. Again, I never said the renewal of OC worship was LEGITIMATE worship, but it WILL occur again when the Jews build their new temple.
I don't see what the AOD, etc, has to do with Ezekiel's glorious temple.MMRRPP ! WRONG !
The AOD will be when the antichrist & his false prophet set up the AC's statue in the coming temple, which the FP will make speak by Satan's power, & his boss declares himself to be God while in that temple. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet.
And you've completely bypassed the Revelation, a part of Scripture that God gace a stern warning against altering in any way. Ignoring it is tantamount to altering it. Besides that, you've ignored Matt. 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The Greek word here rendered "life" is 'sark', which means ""flesh"", man or animal. Obviously, that great trib has not yet occurred. But if you read about the trib plagues in Revelation, especially Ch. 16, you can easily see they could exterminate all animal life on earth were they to persist long enough. Again, it's obvious they haven't yet occurred.
Also, there were several months between the first Roman siege of Jerusalem under Vespasian, & the siege that finally captured J, under Titus. Thus, people had plenty of time to flee, so this obviously was NOT the siege of Matt. 24.
The inspired vision of the temple given to Ezekiel does concern OC worship, compete with animal sacrifices for sin & burnt offerings.For the umpteenth time, I have NEVER said a renewal of OC worship methods is PROPER worship! But it WILL be revived! It'll be just another system of false worship, along with many others now practiced.
And how many times does GOD hafta say something for it to be so? He said the sacrifices, etc. would be stopped, & the context does NOT indicate it was when the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple.
You seem to be teaching TWO more temples - rebuilt by the Israelis towards the end of this Gospel age, & a fourth in the supposed future millennium.So, there won't be a 3rd temple? Not according to SCRIPTURE!!
2 Thess. 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Please read Rev. 13 as an expansion of these Scriptures.
OBVIOUSLY, THAT HASN'T YET OCCURRED !
You say you believe Scripture? Then, try believing ALL of it, not just the parts you like!
We are discussing the prophesied temple of Ezek. 40-48. NOT corrupt worship of unbelievers of all sorts.
The point the LORD is making to Ezekiel is that the temple he is describing will be owned, honoured & occupied by himself for eternity. This is no ILLEGITIMATE renewal of OC worship but the eternal state for redeemed Israel.
Ezek. 43:4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.
I don't see what the AOD, etc, has to do with Ezekiel's glorious temple.
The inspired vision of the temple given to Ezekiel does concern OC worship, compete with animal sacrifices for sin & burnt offerings.
Gabriel prophesied an end to sin, sacrifice & offering. Daniel 9
You seem to be teaching TWO more temples - rebuilt by the Israelis towards the end of this Gospel age, & a fourth in the supposed future millennium.
I consider Revelation should be understood by comparison with related Scripture. It is rather cryptic as a stand-alone prophecy. And needs it's own thread.
Scripture teaches the following centres of worship after the Patriarchal period:
1. The heavenly tabernacle used as a pattern for the wilderness tabernacle;
2. The wilderness tabernacle;
3. Solomon's temple;
4. The temple according to the vision given to Ezekiel.
All these were honoured by the glory of the LORD filling the house of the LORD.
5. The rebuilt temple after the return from exile, which continued in existence until the destruction. This was not honoured by the LORD in the same way. And when the LORD incarnate did enter the temple to claim his house he indicated that he was the true temple (John 2) & on the final visit(s) declared the destruction of the den of thieves. At & after Pentecost Christ was proclaimed in the temple.
6. The church comprising the redeemed of Israel & the Gentiles as one building of living stones for spiritual worship.
7. The NH&NE where no temple will be seen - the Lord God Almighty & the Lamb are its temple.
By the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, there can be no rebuilt physical temple, nor any renewal of animal sacrifices. Ezekiel CANNOT be teaching a future physical temple other than the rebuilt temple after the exile, & that was built half-heartedly rather than in active obedience. It certainly did not conform to the dimensions given, nor was it owned by the LORD by his glorious presence as occurred with the previous structures.
Does Paul in 2 Thes. teach a rebuilt temple of God before the coming of the Lord? Read chapter 1 again - Christ will come for everlasting destruction of the wicked, & vindication & glory for the saints. BUT before that wicked men will take over what Paul still calls the temple of God, now anything but. The 40 years given to this generation to repent was coming to an end. Once the Jerusalem believers left the city, having understood Jesus' warnings in his Olivet prophecy. With their departure, with all reason for the judgment of God being restrained the wicked ran riot, until the AD 70 destruction occurred.
Try reading the OC Scriptures with NC understanding.
This is obviously describing a millenial temple. No healing water has flowed from any of the past temples. It will apparently be occupied by Jesus as His "Capitol" til the millenium is up.
Now, we can only conjecture about who the "prince" will be. but he will have sons, so he will evidently be a human.