Resurrection

[percho]

Now would both of you show how:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

How do those passages All work together.

Of course if you look real close at the passage from 2 C 5 the house you, (I assume the we means out souls) are clothed with is immortality.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That could be the body Tom is speaking of.

 

[asterisktom]

In the case of Ephesians 4:4 considering the text it means a body of people closely associated into one family or social order. In the context as used in Phillipians this menaing doesn't fit. Again you must take the context of the verse to get the meaning of the word.

The word "soma" has two other meanings neither would fit this context and one might come close to Phillipians.
The bodies of planets or of stars (heavenly bodies) in the 2nd heaven.
That which cast a shadow as to distinguish from itself. Our physical body can cast a shadow to distinguish itself but it is still a physical body.

Where are you getting your definitions from? The SOMA in Eph. 4 is the body of Christ, the church. The context, including preceding chapters, show us this. You have yet to prove that SOMA in Philippians is different. Saying "the meaning doesn't fit" is just that - saying.

 

[asterisktom]

Now would both of you show how:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

How do those passages All work together.

Of course if you look real close at the passage from 2 C 5 the house you, (I assume the we means out souls) are clothed with is immortality.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That could be the body Tom is speaking of.

My time is up for now, but let me just add that the fact that "body" in Phil. 3:21 is singular is important. The futurist's point here would have been greatly strenghtened if Paul had written something like "shall make our vile bodies into bodies like His". But the fact that Paul very often, not only mentions, but emphasizes the one-body aspect of the church (and yet the many members) is an oft-overlooked tenet of his teaching. Paul does this explicitly at least twelve times.

 

[revmwc]

Where are you getting your definitions from? The SOMA in Eph. 4 is the body of Christ, the church. The context, including preceding chapters, show us this. You have yet to prove that SOMA in Philippians is different. Saying "the meaning doesn't fit" is just that - saying.

Soma in phillipians means corpse or living body, Soma in Ephesians is a group of people which is what I said and there it means the church.

So Phillipians is the physical literal body. While in Ephesians it is a corporate group such as a family the church. How much better do you want it explained?

 

[asterisktom]

Soma in phillipians means corpse or living body, Soma in Ephesians is a group of people which is what I said and there it means the church.

So Phillipians is the physical literal body. While in Ephesians it is a corporate group such as a family the church. How much better do you want it explained?

This is not explaining. It is repeating. Never mind.

 

[percho]

This is not explaining. It is repeating. Never mind.

While I believe all OT and NT will join him in glory at one time in the future I can see the one body. I also believe this took place whit the Word made flesh at his resurrection and we (souls) will follow him in resurrection/change.

 

[revmwc]

This is not explaining. It is repeating. Never mind.

Strong's Number: 4983 encodedOriginalWord
Original Word Word Origin
σῶμα from (4982)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
sōma so'-mah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 7:1024,1140
Definition
1 the body both of men or animals
A. a dead body or corpse
B. the living body of animals
2 the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
3 mystical body is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical
A. so in the NT of the church
4 that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

My copy and paste didn't work so well sorry

 

[asterisktom]

Strong's Number: 4983 encodedOriginalWord
Original Word Word Origin
σῶμα from (4982)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
sōma so'-mah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 7:1024,1140
Definition
1 the body both of men or animals
A. a dead body or corpse
B. the living body of animals
2 the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical,
3 mystical body
A. so in the NT of the church
4 that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

OK. Thank you. You are getting your definition from Strong's.

Now, where did he get his?

 

[revmwc]

Now would both of you show how:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

How do those passages All work together.

Of course if you look real close at the passage from 2 C 5 the house you, (I assume the we means out souls) are clothed with is immortality.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That could be the body Tom is speaking of.

When we are saved we begin our walk with God.

1 Corinthians 15: 35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

The current body we have is sowing the Gospel and good works, those good works we are sowing do not bring salvation nor is the body fully set apart. Since we still have an old sin nature in us and we do sin then our sanction is not complete. But when we are raised our new ressurrected body will be fully set apart (sanctificatied) to God in Heaven. With the assurance of living in God's presence forever with body, soul and spirit fully matured and complete.

1 Corinthians 15:
From the amplified New Testament.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

53 For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).

54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished [a]forever) in and unto victory.(A)

 

[percho]

When we are saved we begin our walk with God.

1 Corinthians 15: 35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

The current body we have is sowing the Gospel and good works, those good works we are sowing do not bring salvation nor is the body fully set apart. Since we still have an old sin nature in us and we do sin then our sanction is not complete. But when we are raised our new ressurrected body will be fully set apart (sanctificatied) to God in Heaven. With the assurance of living in God's presence forever with body, soul and spirit fully matured and complete.

1 Corinthians 15:
From the amplified New Testament.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

53 For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).

54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished [a]forever) in and unto victory.(A)

We are getting somewhere. Not really. However really we are.
This perishable puts on imperishable and you are correct that is in a moment at the twinkling of an eye. And that is that of Christ (His flesh) neither did see corruption. And that which was capable of dying will be raised eternal. The living soul that was capable of death will be made eternal. The soul of Christ was raised from the realm of the dead called Hades in the Greek.

 

[convicted1]

Who is this man? Who is this I? Who is this me?
Is he speaking of the person or the body?

Sorry about the tardiness of this reply, but I will try to explain my position on this matter, with scripture, of course. Not saying that you haven't explained your this way, either. I do not mean to be offensive with that remark either. Please do not take it that way.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! The "me" in this verse is talking about the physical body that will be laid in the grave after the soul leaves and goes back to God. Ecc. 12:7

14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. This man is the natural man that comes forth from the grave with the new spiritual body. That is what will live on forever.

15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. When Jesus calls our name, we will come forth from the ground with the new spiritual body fashioned like Jesus' most glorious body!! That's shoutin' words right there!!! Hallelujah!!



Here is what I have gleaned from the Word. When we die as CHRISTians, our natural man molders back to the dust, and the soul goes back to God who gave it(Ecc. 12:7). When Jesus comes to gather His children, He will bring back with Him, the souls who died in faith. The natural man that was sown in the earth, will come forth with that new spiritual body, and will reunite with the soul that came with Jesus in the cloud, reuniting the soul and body, but the body is no longer physical, but spiritual. He will then take us home to be forever with Him, the Father, and the Holy Ghost, to shout praises, sing, rejoice in what He did for us!!

1 Cor.15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So I think that this here seals the deal...or at least it does for me!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[percho]

Sorry about the tardiness of this reply, but I will try to explain my position on this matter, with scripture, of course. Not saying that you haven't explained your this way, either. I do not mean to be offensive with that remark either. Please do not take it that way.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! The "me" in this verse is talking about the physical body that will be laid in the grave after the soul leaves and goes back to God. Ecc. 12:7

14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. This man is the natural man that comes forth from the grave with the new spiritual body. That is what will live on forever.

15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. When Jesus calls our name, we will come forth from the ground with the new spiritual body fashioned like Jesus' most glorious body!! That's shoutin' words right there!!! Hallelujah!!



Here is what I have gleaned from the Word. When we die as CHRISTians, our natural man molders back to the dust, and the soul goes back to God who gave it(Ecc. 12:7). When Jesus comes to gather His children, He will bring back with Him, the souls who died in faith. The natural man that was sown in the earth, will come forth with that new spiritual body, and will reunite with the soul that came with Jesus in the cloud, reuniting the soul and body, but the body is no longer physical, but spiritual. He will then take us home to be forever with Him, the Father, and the Holy Ghost, to shout praises, sing, rejoice in what He did for us!!

1 Cor.15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So I think that this here seals the deal...or at least it does for me!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

No offense taken ever from me. We are here to speak our mind. I will try and show you your error. No offense meant. Ecc. 12:7 says nothing about the soul. Ecc. 12:7 would be more equal to Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. (Expired, died) At that very moment where was his soul? His body was still on the cross, perishing yet it did not see corruption. There has been a lot of speculation about his soul. All I know for sure is three days and three nights later his soul was resurrected from Hades and his flesh did not see corruption. And being Jesus himself said he (and I do not think he meant his body or he would have said my body) would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. However he also said destroy this temple and he would raise it up in three days, meaning the temple of his body. Can the soul exist without the body? I believe the word shows that they belong together. What makes up a soul?
God formed Adam from the dust of the ground, without life and inanimate just a body made of dust, then God breathed life into what was made from the ground and the two together became a living soul. Man was a soul, living as long as the breath of life from god is in him. When it returns to God who gave it the soul dies and over time the body would return to dust.

Therefore the soul has to be resurrected from death with a body for the two go together.


Your turn. or anyone else that wants in.

 

[JesusFan]

My time is up for now, but let me just add that the fact that "body" in Phil. 3:21 is singular is important. The futurist's point here would have been greatly strenghtened if Paul had written something like "shall make our vile bodies into bodies like His". But the fact that Paul very often, not only mentions, but emphasizes the one-body aspect of the church (and yet the many members) is an oft-overlooked tenet of his teaching. Paul does this explicitly at least twelve times.

So did God raise up Jesus in SAME physical body that he died on Cross with?
Was it a glorified, but still able to eat/talf Body?

John said that when we see Him , we shall than be as He now is...

Same copy as His body...

God will raise up our dead physical bodies and reunite our souls/spirits with them, and than become a glorifed "whole man " again...

When did this occur?
And IF Jesus was same Body, physical, but glorifed, why not us same way?

 

[asterisktom]

So did God raise up Jesus in SAME physical body that he died on Cross with?
Was it a glorified, but still able to eat/talf Body?

John said that when we see Him , we shall than be as He now is...

Same copy as His body...

Look up that verse you quoted just now. Study the context (in this case, the next 5 or so verses).

It is interesting when people quote that verse to argue for physical resurrection of believers, or for Christ coming back in a physical body.

Do you believe He will have visible nail marks too?

God will raise up our dead physical bodies and reunite our souls/spirits with them, and than become a glorifed "whole man " again...

When did this occur?

You make an unbiblical assertion - and then ask me to comment on it? I have a question for you too. What is it about this physical body that you love so much that you would value it over the spiritual existence the Bible actually promises us?

 

[JesusFan]

Look up that verse you quoted just now. Study the context (in this case, the next 5 or so verses).

It is interesting when people quote that verse to argue for physical resurrection of believers, or for Christ coming back in a physical body.

Do you believe He will have visible nail marks too?

You make an unbiblical assertion - and then ask me to comment on it? I have a question for you too. What is it about this physical body that you love so much that you would value it over the spiritual existence the Bible actually promises us?

yes, believe that Jesus still in his physical body that has his marks/wounds on it, as a sign to atonement forever...

God promised to raise up this old body one day, to themn become imperishable...

Just saying that God DID raise up physical body of jesus and glorify it, why not able to do same with us?
As even now saints in heaven LONGING for time when will be made whole/complete by reunion with physical body and it becoming "prepared/made" for Eternity?

 

[asterisktom]

yes, believe that Jesus still in his physical body that has his marks/wounds on it, as a sign to atonement forever...

Then this is just bizarre. Why stop at those marks? The Bible says (Isa. 52:4) that He was "more marred than any man". If that is the case then we have a seriously disfigured Christ coming - if you really believe that.

And if we take your application of 1st John at face value that means that all those saints through the ages - mutilated, flayed, skinned alive, sawed in half (like Isaiah might have been) - will also return with those marks. Do you see the consistency? If we shall be like Him in this regard - bearing the marks of our suffering just like He bore His (and, according to some futurists, will bear them forever!) then that means the various mutilations of the saints (to say nothing of those who were actually incinerated) will likewise be forever.

Or will Christ be the only one to wear His marks?

Or (and this is where my money is) does being like Him refer to spiritual likeness; holiness.

"A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher." Luke 6:40

God promised to raise up this old body one day, to themn become imperishable...

Just saying that God DID raise up physical body of jesus and glorify it, why not able to do same with us?

The question is not what God is able to do, but what He said He will do. God is able to make sons of Abraham out of the rocks of the Judaean desert.

 

[JesusFan]

Then this is just bizarre. Why stop at those marks? The Bible says (Isa. 52:4) that He was "more marred than any man". If that is the case then we have a seriously disfigured Christ coming - if you really believe that.

And if we take your application of 1st John at face value that means that all those saints through the ages - mutilated, flayed, skinned alive, sawed in half (like Isaiah might have been) - will also return with those marks. Do you see the consistency? If we shall be like Him in this regard - bearing the marks of our suffering just like He bore His (and, according to some futurists, will bear them forever!) then that means the various mutilations of the saints (to say nothing of those who were actually incinerated) will likewise be forever.

Or will Christ be the only one to wear His marks?

Or (and this is where my money is) does being like Him refer to spiritual likeness; holiness.

"A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher." Luke 6:40

The question is not what God is able to do, but what He said He will do. God is able to make sons of Abraham out of the rocks of the Judaean desert.

ALL of us will be raised, our physical body that we died in, and that body will be as He is..

Jesus ONLY one to keep his woundings/marks, as we will forever see those on Him as sign/testimony to how great a price was paid to atone for us....

And the Bible DOES state that the dead bodies in Chrsit WILL rise out of their graves at His Second Coming...

So God will indeed reclaim our physical bodies at that time, when jesus Returns for the "dead in Christ" and those of us alive at that moment will "be changed to glorified form"

When DID that happen in History past?

 

[asterisktom]

ALL of us will be raised, our physical body that we died in, and that body will be as He is..

Jesus ONLY one to keep his woundings/marks, as we will forever see those on Him as sign/testimony to how great a price was paid to atone for us....

And the Bible DOES state that the dead bodies in Chrsit WILL rise out of their graves at His Second Coming...

So God will indeed reclaim our physical bodies at that time, when jesus Returns for the "dead in Christ" and those of us alive at that moment will "be changed to glorified form"

When DID that happen in History past?

It didn't. It won't. Ever.

Where are you getting your "changed to a glorified form"? Your putting it in quotes makes one believe it is Scriptural. But it isn't, unless it is a very loose translation.

Did you look at those verses I mentioned?

 

[sag38]

So Tom, are you denying the physical resurrection of Jesus? Were the nail prints and the hole in Jesus side that Thomas actually touched just illusions?

 

[sag38]

And if we take your application of 1st John at face value that means that all those saints through the ages - mutilated, flayed, skinned alive, sawed in half (like Isaiah might have been) - will also return with those marks. Do you see the consistency? If we shall be like Him in this regard - bearing the marks of our suffering just like He bore His (and, according to some futurists, will bear them forever!) then that means the various mutilations of the saints (to say nothing of those who were actually incinerated) will likewise be forever.

Am I the only one who finds this to be a form of malicious sarcasm?