Rethinking our Terminology

[StraightAndNarrow]

There are also many people who have gifts but choose not to use them. Christ commanded us to follow Him. These people decide not to follow His command and are sent to Hell for all eternity. (MA 25) I suppose you could claim that decipleship isn't important to you and ignore this commandment.

I choose to say that it is of extreme importance. I don't believe in a do-nothing Christianity and Christ never did either.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think this thread is about to run out of steam, because I am tempted to chase some rabbits. Let's for purposes of discussion that you believe it's appropriate to give an invitation. You wish to avoid the cliches, avoid any manipulation, any gimmicks (go back and read Ed Sutton's marvelous parody on page 4 of this thread for an example of manipulation of the first magnitude). What would you say? I'm assuming the Calvinists might word it differently from non-Calvinists. Any takers?

Tom Butler

 

[GLC]

OK Tom. How about this:

As we close our service today, we want to extend an offer of further help or counseling to anyone who feels such a need. If you have felt the Spirit of God speaking to you during this time and want help as you seek to respond to Him, this invitation is open for you. There is no redeeming power in coming to the front of the Church. However, there is ultimate redeeming power in the blood of Christ and we would love the opportunity to speak with you personally about His saving grace.

 

[Tom Butler]

Gary, I like it. Let's add another hypothetical situation. You've been privileged to witness to someone who has confessed Christ as Lord, and he's in the congregation. Would you add anything or change anything to accommodate that situation?

Tom

 

[HankD]

I suppose you could claim that decipleship isn't important to you and ignore this commandment.

I neither ignore or pursue it, neither do I worry about it because I am resting in the finished work of Christ. I just walk with Him and follow where He leads.

John 9
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I choose to say that it is of extreme importance. I don't believe in a do-nothing Christianity and Christ never did either.

Well when it comes to "doing" there is nothing I can do but abide in Him and bring forth fruit.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


HankD

 

[GLC]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Gary, I like it. Let's add another hypothetical situation. You've been privileged to witness to someone who has confessed Christ as Lord, and he's in the congregation. Would you add anything or change anything to accommodate that situation?

Tom

 

[GLC]

Originally posted by GLC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Gary, I like it. Let's add another hypothetical situation. You've been privileged to witness to someone who has confessed Christ as Lord, and he's in the congregation. Would you add anything or change anything to accommodate that situation?

Tom

</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, I cliked on reply by accident the first time. At any rate, you raise a good point. I was concentrating on an invitation to the lost folks. This could and should be expanded to include inviting folks to unite with the Body or take other steps in their relationship to the Lord. I think the common thread for me would be to invite them to seek further help/counsel. What I would like to see removed is the push for a quick decision at the front of the Church while we are finishing a couple of hymn stanzas. I would include those who respond to unite with the Church in this. Time to explain what the Church believes and what is expected of members would be important in my view. I'm not advocating that we present a set of legalistic standards that potential members must meet. I'm just advocating making sure folks know what they are joining.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Most of us are probably aware that Spurgeon used the "inquiry room" approach. I have visited in at least one congregation that invited all who wished to counsel with the pastor/staff to stay in a "seeker-friendly" coffee/donuts fellowship and ask questions. People would be presented to the church in later services after the pastor, staff, and/or elders (I believe they used that form of church government) had spent time with them, often in their homes. We have been, in my judgment, far too "trigger-happy" in our desire to have immediate response rather than seed sown that will bear fruit. A century ago, an SBC President (J. B. Gambrell) could say, at an annual convention meeting, "Baptists are many, but they aren't much." What would he say today?

Best ot all - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[GLC]

Well said, Bro. Blair!

 

[Ron Arndt]

What is really amazing is that Christians who balk at altar calls or long drawn out invitations given at the close of a service, were most likely converted to Christ through these very same methods. How quickly we forget? I will ALWAYS believe in any form of an invitation to receive Christ at the close of a service.

When we stop doing that, then we stop trying to bring the lost to Christ. If just one soul can be saved from the fires of hell by an altar call at the close of your service, wasn't it worth it to stay a little longer than you wanted? Is not one soul getting saved worth more than rushing home for whatever you think is so exciting to do? Remember the words of our Lord in Revelation. "Remember where thou was brought from."

 

[GLC]

Ron:
You seem to indicate that the concerns listed here as to "altar calls" has to do with how long one has to stay at church. If that's what you are deriving from this discussion, we have certainly not communicated our concerns appropriately. I'm actually advocating staying longer and spending more time with folks. What I'm speaking against is using manipulative tactics to do the work that the Holy Spirit should be doing. And, I'm also speaking against trying to force the Spirit's work into a few minutes so that we can report a decision to the congretation immediately. I think the fact that most of our churches only have 40% or less of the membership active speaks to the fact that something is wrong.

Finally, on a personal note, I made a profession of faith during an altar call as an 11 year old boy. I was converted many years later after experiencing the conviction of the Holy Spirit for nearly a week. I made this public after an invitation but my conversion did not occur during an "altar call". I agree that many have been converted during these invitations. However, that does not mean that the process could not use some refining.

 

[Ron Arndt]

GLC

The invitation to come and accept Christ needs no refining. It sure didn't on the day of Pentecost and it sure doesn't now. Whosoever will MAY COME and drink of the waters of life freely. When the minister of a said church offers an altar call or invitation for the unsaved to come and accept Christ, he is standing in the place of Christ asking all who are heavy laden and troubled, to come unto Christ and he will give those seeking souls rest.

Whatever your excuse for refining or dismissing the invitation of Christ after a church service doesn't matter. What matters is that by doing so, you show your lack of concern for saving souls. That is the bottom line. That is where the rubber meets the road. Whatever it takes, and no matter how long it takes, matters not. Seeing one soul saved for the glory of Christ supersedes any human need.

 

[saturneptune]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
GLC

Whatever your excuse for refining or dismissing the invitation of Christ after a church service doesn't matter. What matters is that by doing so, you show your lack of concern for saving souls.

Ron,
Your points had some validity to them until I read this quote. I have known this man, GLC, for nearly 30 years, eye ball to eye ball every Sunday, and not through some message board. I have seen his life before his conviction and after. This is a man who is very concerned with with saving souls, probably the top priority of his life. I won't go into all the aspects of his ministry at the church in which he serves, but surfice it to say, he is an example to follow. Your comment about "lack of concern for saving souls" is mean spirited, not worthy of this thread, and has no place in a Christian discussion. I do not appreciate the remark one bit, especially when you have no idea about the character of the man. To me, it speaks of your character, judgement, and common sense to make such an accusation based on a few lines written in a forum. Maybe you should reread the second great commandment, several places throughout the Bible. Also, I would suggest the parable about the log in the eye.

 

[OldRegular]

An altar call never saved anyone from the fires of hell. It is only the Power of the Holy Spirit in the regeneration of the elect that saves anyone from their just deserts!

 

[GLC]

Easy there Saturn, your blood pressure seems on the rise. Although I appreciate your commendation, I don't think Ron was on a personal attack. If one chooses to post on these boards, one must be prepared to consider differing views. I realize many Baptists feel that the invitation methods used in our churches are above reproach. I just don't happen to be one of them. Please note that I said our "Methods". I'm all for inviting!

 

[saturneptune]

GLC,
Thanks for your post. I understand this is a difference of opinion here. However, there is a distinct way to show a difference of opinion with honest and open debate with respect, without using phrases such as "your lack of concern for saving souls." My BP is back down to 110/75. Thanks, I needed that.

 

[Tom Butler]

Ron said

I will ALWAYS believe in any form of an invitation to receive Christ at the close of a service

I anticipated that a response similar to yours would come. My own daughter visited a service in my church in which the pastor simply closed the service without an invitation. She was upset. "Dad," she asked, "how can people be saved if you don't give an invitation?" Another question she asked: "What if there had been a lost person there who might have accepted Christ if there had been an invitation, but was killed in a wreck on the way home?"

The Calvinist answer (and mine) was, and is, It is God who saves, and in His own time. And none whom He has elected will be lost. As Jesus prayed in John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word."

The non-Calvinist reponse would resemble your view.

The question I posed earlier assumed that invitations were okay. It asked how you would frame invitation to avoid manipulation and gimmicks to get a response. I did not intend to trigger a debate on whether we should or shouldn't have them, only how to do them properly.

Tom

 

[bapmom]

If thats what you are wondering Tom, than to me the proper invitation would be one which simply asks those who have more questions to come forward and allow someone to answer them. This would of course mean that we'd have to have people available at the front who can lead someone to Christ.
It would also include an invitation to anyone who would like to make a decision for Christ...whether baptism, membership, or simply a response to the message.

 

[Tom Butler]

Bapmom, thanks for the response.

Now, let's throw in another question to consider. I have seen pastors and counselor working with someone on the front row while the invitation hymn went on and on. As the song leader, more than once I have cut off the singing and asked the instrumentalists to continue and have the congregation be seated. Wouldn't it be better to have the counselor take that person out of the auditorium to a quiet place? That way, the pastor could dismiss the service and the counseling could continue for as long as necessary.
BTW, my other question is still open--what's the right way to frame an invitation?

Tom

 

[Ron Arndt]

OldRegular

"An altar call never saved anyone from the fires of hell. It is only the Power of the Holy Spirit in the regeneration of the elect that saves anyone from their just deserts!"

Reply-The altar call itself saves no one, true. But it does offer an invitation to come to Christ, say the sinner's prayer and ask Christ into one's heart, does it not? Since an altar call offers these things, does not an altar call lead to the reality that one IS SAVED and should they die immediately after walking out of the church, they would not go to hell, but rather enter heaven?