Rethinking our Terminology

[HankD]

Glad you agree, and I'm curious. Am I correct in inferring that you believe in some kind of election, and that those whom God gave to the Son are certain to be saved? As a non-Calvinist, which of the 'nons' are you? Not looking for debate, just clarification.

Tom,

Since you asked...

First, I am very uncomfortable with labels derived from a man's name "Calvinism".
Others are OK with it but I try to avoid it.

Even theological labels seem off target to me e.g. "dispensationalist", "Covenant theologian" although I don't mind "Trinitarian" or "OSAS".

I suppose some labeling is necessary in this age of myriad flavors of Christianity.

In essence, I can't reconcile (in my own mind) the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man in the salvation of the human race;

The Sovereignty of God:
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The reponsibility of man:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The essence of it all in my mind is the "want to" both of God and the human recipients of this salvation.

In my own case, after a fearful encounter with the OT Scriptures, I still wanted God but I knew I was too wicked to be accepted by Him.

In the NT (particularly the Gospel of John) I understood Christ and trusted Him for forgiveness and eternal life and He took away the fear and guilt.

Now I have no problem with the fear or the understanding part as from God alone but the "want to" is my dilemma.

If God put the "want to" within me then it's fatalism, a kind of a mechanical thing, a heavenly charade and I'm a kind of puppet (though I know I'm not).

On the other hand, if the "want to" came from me then I have something good about me.

So, I just leave it alone knowing that there was nothing good about me that I should "want to" be His child or that He for any reason should "want to" redeem me .


HankD

[ February 04, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Tom Butler]

HankD,
Thanks for your answer. I believe the tension between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are compatible somehow, only because I find both in the scriptures. Otherwise, my fallen intellect cannot grasp it.

Tom B

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's mix a metaphor or and run a couple of terms up the old flagpole and see if anybody will chew on them. How about "revival" and "crusade?" Revival is a useful term, but I have difficulty with it when it's scheduled in advance. And where did crusade come from? When and how is it proper to use them? Are there other terms which are more accurate?

Tom B

 

[Ron Arndt]

Tom

The Jews DID believe.The Jewish people ALREADY were convicted in their heart of sin and that they had crucified their own Messiah. They were then instructed by Peter to repent of their sin and be baptized.

So it was a huge altar call to the Jews to accept Christ. First-Peter's sermon to the Jews. Second-The Holy Spirit convicted the Jews of their wrong doing. Third-The Jews now believed Jesus was their Messiah. Fourth-Peter now instructed them to Repent and be Baptized.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

S&N - If the sick man in James 5 is a lost man, why does James say "Is any sick among you"? (If I knew how to underline on these posts, I would put a line under the word "you" there.) And what is your understanding of I John 1:9 (and context)? Do the saved not sin, and not need to confess?
Is it not more likely that James assumes the sickness may have been caused by specific sins?
We must distinguish between "sin" and "sins," singular and plural. The sin-principle condemns; specific sins bring specific judgments. Best in Him - Charles Blair - Ro. 8:28

 

[Tom Butler]

Ron,

There was no altar call after Peter's sermon on the Day of Petecost. Peter was interruped during his sermon. You are entirely correct that the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sins. He also opened their eyes to the truth of what Peter was preaching. This happened right in the middle of his sermon, not during an altar call.

When Paul preached on Mars Hill in Acts 17, at the end of his message, he was asked to leave, and did so. People were saved after he left.

Re the publican's prayer, "God be merciful to me, a sinner" is indeed the prayer of a sinner, but it was not prayed in the company of someone witnessing to him. The "sinner's prayer" as used today bears little resemblance to the publican's prayer. No modern soul-winner would confine the prayer to the words spoken by the publican.

Tom B.

 

[Ron Arndt]

Tom

I have presented my case. If you choose not to care to win souls to Christ in your church, then you must answer to God for it. I am just sad that you belong to such a church that does not invite the lost to come forward to receive Christ. You have lost the burden to win the lost and that is tragic.

 

[saturneptune]

Ron Arndt,
I've had about a belly full of you. Tom told you yesterday in quite clear terms our church has invitations much in the way you describe. He told you twice he was speaking for himself. You either don't listen, or have a real problem with the English language

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Tom

I have presented my case. If you choose not to care to win souls to Christ in your church, then you must answer to God for it. I am just sad that you belong to such a church that does not invite the lost to come forward to receive Christ. You have lost the burden to win the lost and that is tragic.

With all due respect, (and I know none of those involved) this is a cheap shot, and questions one's motives as well.
Ed

 

[HankD]

Brethren, though we should correct one another, shouldn't we avoid making these comparisons among ourselves?

NKJV 2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

"pray for one another".

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

The question I asked was not should we have invitations or altar calls, but what is the best way to biblically frame it. What is proper to say and do and what is not. The goal is to avoid cliches, gimmicks and manipulation. I recognize that Calvinists and non-Calvinists might frame it differently. I simply wanted for such invitations to be bibilical. To do that, we must look to the scriptures for guidance.
When I saw that some scriptures were being misapplied, I pointed it out. When statements were made which were mis-stated what happened at an event in the Bible, I pointed it out.
In a separate thread, I quoted a scripture verse as support for my view. A poster named "mountainrun" pointed out that I had taken the verse from its context and it could in no way support my view. He was right, I was wrong and accepted correction.
What I hope is that we will look to scripture and measure what we do and say against it. Too many of us, and I plead guilty, hold a position and when challenged, look for a verse or two to support it. We do not derive our view from that scripture, we try to make it fit what we believe. A good question to ask is, had I never heard of the position I hold before, would I adopt it after reading this scripture for the first time?
I can tell you that some of what I believe theologically today is different from what I once believed. The transition was painful, but it ws triggered by the challenge--find it in the Bible.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Tom B

 

[R. Charles Blair]

RD - "Production" is a good word for what I wanted to describe. We owe my friend Tom a rousing vote of thanks for raising this provocative question; sorry some have misunderstood. I can assure you that he and the church where he is a member are as much concerned for the lost as any of us - they have built churches overseas, and are standing faithful in their place. Thre is so much secular humanism in our church life that the question "What does the Scripture actually teach?" is almost ignored. I have heard people say, "Well, I know the Bible says that, but I don't want to do it!" Of course most of us "dress that up" a bit with "changing circumstances," "different world," etc., but it boils down to the same thing.

Hope all of you have a great week in the Lord - I do seek to remember in prayer those who post in these threads. Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[HankD]

The question I asked was not should we have invitations or altar calls, but what is the best way to biblically frame it. What is proper to say and do and what is not.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

HankD

 

[Ron Arndt]

AMEN HankD!!!!

 

[Tom Butler]

HankD, thanks, now we're getting somewhere. Rev. 22:17 is indeed a scriptural exhortation. Now, let me follow up in a spirit of inquiry.

Come to whom? I think we agree that it is to Christ.

Come to where? Down the aisle? Down to the front, to the "altar?" Is it necessary to go to a place to come to Christ? Can we agree that it is not? Remember, I'm not trying to make a case against invitations, only for biblically sound ones.

How does Rev 22:17 apply to such invitations which invite those who wish to unite with the congregation to come forward?

How does it apply when the preacher exhorts people to come to the "altar" and pray?

How does it apply when the preacher urges people to redicate their lives?

Have you ever been in an invitation where part of it was an exhortation from the preacher to go tell someone you love them and appreciate them? I have.

Remember, I'm looking for invitations framed biblically, not some desperate attempt by the preacher to get a response, any response, a decision, any decision.

HankD has made a good start. We now have a scriptural appeal to the lost from Christ himself. I look forward to hearing that a pastor has quoted it verbatim during his next invitation, which would be a first for me.

Now, lets look for a scriptural justification directed at prospective members, rededicators, and appreciaters.

This may come across as sarcasm, but please understand that it is not. I'm trying to be consistent with my plea to measure all that we do and say in presenting the gospel against the Word.

Tom B.

 

[HankD]

Here is one which is used more often than the Revelation 22:17 passage.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Here is another passage which amazingly covers both the Sovereignty of God and the Responsibility of man in the salvation invitation:

Matthew 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

HankD, thanks.

Rev. 3:20 is vague, and must be accompanied by the gospel, or it won't mean anything. I'm not sure it's a good scriptural example for an invitation, but at least now we're looking for some.
Let's accept Matt ll:27-30 for the time being as a valid scriptural example of an invitation.

Have you ever heard those passages quoted during an invitation? Have you heard them even paraphrased?

I have this dream. The preacher quotes Rev 22:17 or Matt 11:27-30, maybe even Rev. 3:20 then SHUTS UP. Silence. No organ, no piano, no choir, just silence.

Or this dream. The preacher ends his message and says, something like, "if God is dealing with you about your salvation or any other matter, and you want to talk about it, I'll be right here after the closing prayer, and so will our deacons."

I think Calvinists and non-Calvinist alike would be comfortable with either one.

Hank, thanks for your input. This has been helpful to me. Thanks to everybody else,and anybody else who wants to chime in.

Tom B

 

[GLC]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:

Have you ever heard those passages quoted during an invitation? Have you heard them even paraphrased?

I have this dream. The preacher quotes Rev 22:17 or Matt 11:27-30, maybe even Rev. 3:20 then SHUTS UP. Silence. No organ, no piano, no choir, just silence.

Or this dream. The preacher ends his message and says, something like, "if God is dealing with you about your salvation or any other matter, and you want to talk about it, I'll be right here after the closing prayer, and so will our deacons."

Tom B [/QB]

I think I'm having that same dream.