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Rethinking our Terminology
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
This has the same meaning.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Good post Tom.
In the Baptist Church [Old Regular] that I attended as a boy the invitation was something like this:
" The doors of the Church are open. If anyone believes that God has performed a work of Grace unto Salvation in their lives and wishes to unite with this fellowship we invite them to give their testimony."
These may not be the exact words but they present the esssential thought. No one was ever invited to come forward to accept Jesus Christ as Savior.
I am afraid that many Baptist Churches have turned our God and Savior into a pitiful person, standing in the aisle, pleading for those dead in sin to accept Him.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That verse is one of the most misused in Scripture. Jesus Christ is speaking to the Churches, not to the individual.
arkie pastor
New Member
Amen oldregular...This is a truth...and sad to say that this is a happening in so many quote "Churches" unquote today.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
1. We see in the wilderness that God divided those who were being held responsible for their part in the rebellion and those who were not being held responsible and would be allowed into the Promised Land as the age of 20.
2. Looking at my own children when I raised them, I noticed that both as children and as young teens, the reasons they did things had nothing to do with God or right or wrong! They had to do with escaping punishment, getting rewards, peer approval, parental approval, good grades, etc. It was not until the later teens that attention began to be turned to right and wrong, good and evil, in and of themselves, and the actual wrestling with God began.
3. So I started asking people who were Christians, "When did you commit to the Lord". Almost invariably the answers ranged in ages from about 17 or 18 to around 26 or 27. That ten year span seemed to be a watershed moment in the lives of people. The vast majority of the responses were around 20-23 years old, though, and that was interesting.
So if there is an age of accountability in terms of being held responsible for the sins one's sin nature causes one to commit, because one has sinned intentionally, knowing one should not, then perhaps in the late teens?
In Romans 7:7-11, Paul talks about being alive before the law came into his life. When the law came, he says sin 'sprang to life' and he died. He did not say sin was not there before, but that it was not active in the sense that it could not hurt him. But when it sprang to life, it killed him. We know that does not mean physically, for he goes on from there. So it must mean spiritually, and this must mean that he was alive spiritually before that happened.
In John 17:3, Jesus speaks of eternal life as knowing the Father and the Son. That would mean eternal death is not knowing, or not having an intimate relationship with God. If a child is alive before he or she knows the law, then that makes sense of Jesus' words that the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these and that their angels always see the face of the Father in heaven. No child is in danger of hell, it would seem from all this.
And this is no excuse for not teaching the child the Bible! For what other weapon will the child have against the doubts that come raging later in life? How could we not equip our children? And of course we must discipline them, for we must get them ready for the Lord's discipline later, and they need to know it is for their benefit and not because we are old meanies!
The Calvinists have fought me tooth and nail on all of this, but the more I read Scripture, the more it all seems to come together in this basic pattern.
Hope that helps a bit. </font>[/QUOTE]Helen, I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist [I reject many of Calvin's teachings.] but I believe in election and the Sovereignty of God in Salvation. That being said I agree with you on the age of accountability. As I recall you have made reference before to the age of accountability of the Israelites in the wilderness.
I have seen too many young children run, pulled, or pushed down the aisle when the invitation is given. The congregation is told this child loves Jesus Christ and is voted into the Church.
I must say that I was well past 20 before I was saved by the Sovereign Grace of God. In all honesty at that time I did not realize that my Salvation was totally the work of the Triune God but in His Grace God has taught me otherwise. All Praise, Honor, and Glory to Him.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Helen, I was wondering, how do you apply this to a young child that comes to the Lord? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think a young child NEEDS to 'come to the Lord'. They have not yet left. They Lord said the children are His. </font>[/QUOTE]Helen, Bless your little pea pikin heart I have to agree with you again.
Helen, I think, without your intending, perhaps your 'age comments' are a bit too simplistic. I have known individuals who were saved from the age of 5, in the case of one of the Presidents of the Bible College I attended, to one over 80 in my own home church. I believe I was saved at the age of 14, but not certain as to a date. An interesting sidelight to this is that my own home church has a larger percentage of individuals saved well into adulthood, than any I've ever been around. Why this is, I don't know. It has been a pattern for some years, although the percentage is decreasing, but not the numbers, simply because of the larger numbers of younger people recently. FWIW. I cannot comment on your own experience, but accept yours, as well.
Tom, perhaps if you ate my cooking, you might not only want a 'blessing' but also 'absolution' prior to partaking. My wife works (by choice) in an extrtemely high stress job as a cardiac care nurse, and I am a disabled, to a small degree, small farmer, with much less stress and responsibility. To ease the stress on her as much as possible, I do most of the cooking around here.
I like my own cooking, I guess, even though I don't have the world's greatest taste buds and she usually says what I cook is good.
I do find it odd that the dog prefers to eat at the neighbor's!
Maybe it's just me, but something does seem fishy here.
On a serious note you wrote:
Absolutely!
Couldn't have said it better, myself!!!
Or could I?
Let's check out the phrase "...urging people to repent and turn to Christ."
I'll start with 'urging people to repent'.
Is this bad terminology, itself? What about 'urge'? Checking my concordance, I find but one use of any form of the word 'urge' in the NT, (KJV) and the R.V. renders it 'press upon' (Luke 11:53). 'Press' (ESV); 'oppose' (HCSB) and 'assail (NKJV) are among other renderings. I do find multiple uses of 'compel' and many of 'command', however in the NT, including God..."commands all men everywhere to repent". Maybe that is a bit akin to urging with a baseball bat, or cricket bat, for those 'across the pond'.
How about the phrase I hear repeatedly, and have read on these threads repeatedly 'repent of, or repent from (your) sin(s)'. Is that phrase found in scripture? Nope! Not once. (Sure is found in a lot of Baptist churches, though!) 'Repentance toward God' is found in Scripture, but somehow I seldom hear it. Hmmmm!?
One more- you used- "...and turn to Christ." Found in Scripture? Unh-unh! Turn(ed) to the Lord is; turn(ed) to God is, both several times. 'Turn to Christ'? Not there.
I suggest we all need to be on guard. I also suggest that substituting one bad phrase for another is akin to the proverbial rearranging deck chairs on the 'Titanic'.
I'm not intentionally picking on you, Tom. But I thought your own post is a better illustration than any I could come up with.
One of my half dozen or so closest friends, happens to have been born in Mayfield, almost in the shadow of MCU. I have heard him decry the number of preachers, teachers and other Christian leaders who, in his words, 'could not pass a one question pop-quiz on "What must I do to be saved?"' Unfortuantely, I must agree. It is sad. Well over 250 times, if memory serves, the NT uses the word 'believe' or its noun forms, belief' or 'faith', in regards to salvation. John uses the word 'believe' 99 times, in his gospel, alone. What ever happened to 'believe"?
In His grace,
Ed
'
An interesting sidelight to this is that my own home church has a larger percentage of individuals saved well into adulthood, than any I've ever been around. Why this is, I don't know. It has been a pattern for some years, although the percentage is decreasing, but not the numbers, simply because of the larger numbers of younger people recently. FWIW. I cannot comment on your own experience, but accept yours, as well.Tom, perhaps if you ate my cooking, you might not only want a 'blessing' but also 'absolution' prior to partaking. My wife works (by choice) in an extrtemely high stress job as a cardiac care nurse, and I am a disabled, to a small degree, small farmer, with much less stress and responsibility. To ease the stress on her as much as possible, I do most of the cooking around here.
On a serious note you wrote:
I fully agree!
Absolutely!
Couldn't have said it better, myself!!!
Or could I?
Let's check out the phrase "...urging people to repent and turn to Christ."
I'll start with 'urging people to repent'.
Is this bad terminology, itself? What about 'urge'? Checking my concordance, I find but one use of any form of the word 'urge' in the NT, (KJV) and the R.V. renders it 'press upon' (Luke 11:53). 'Press' (ESV); 'oppose' (HCSB) and 'assail (NKJV) are among other renderings. I do find multiple uses of 'compel' and many of 'command', however in the NT, including God..."commands all men everywhere to repent". Maybe that is a bit akin to urging with a baseball bat, or cricket bat, for those 'across the pond'.
How about the phrase I hear repeatedly, and have read on these threads repeatedly 'repent of, or repent from (your) sin(s)'. Is that phrase found in scripture? Nope! Not once. (Sure is found in a lot of Baptist churches, though!) 'Repentance toward God' is found in Scripture, but somehow I seldom hear it. Hmmmm!?
One more- you used- "...and turn to Christ." Found in Scripture? Unh-unh! Turn(ed) to the Lord is; turn(ed) to God is, both several times. 'Turn to Christ'? Not there.
I suggest we all need to be on guard. I also suggest that substituting one bad phrase for another is akin to the proverbial rearranging deck chairs on the 'Titanic'.
I'm not intentionally picking on you, Tom. But I thought your own post is a better illustration than any I could come up with.
One of my half dozen or so closest friends, happens to have been born in Mayfield, almost in the shadow of MCU. I have heard him decry the number of preachers, teachers and other Christian leaders who, in his words, 'could not pass a one question pop-quiz on "What must I do to be saved?"' Unfortuantely, I must agree. It is sad. Well over 250 times, if memory serves, the NT uses the word 'believe' or its noun forms, belief' or 'faith', in regards to salvation. John uses the word 'believe' 99 times, in his gospel, alone. What ever happened to 'believe"?
In His grace,
Ed
'
I just read the "7 Reasons Not to Invite Jesus Into Your Heart" page by Dennis Rosker.
IMO, this should be required reading for everyone on BB, not to mention, all pastors, elders, and any other Christian worker. In fact, it should be required reading for anyone. This truly IS one I could NOT have said better myself!
In His grace,
Ed
IMO, this should be required reading for everyone on BB, not to mention, all pastors, elders, and any other Christian worker. In fact, it should be required reading for anyone. This truly IS one I could NOT have said better myself!
In His grace,
Ed
Tom Butler
New Member
Ed,
You said
You said
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
That verse is one of the most misused in Scripture. Jesus Christ is speaking to the Churches, not to the individual. </font>[/QUOTE]Does Jesus ever speak to a group? How would an entire church respond to this? Ultimately, he always speaks to an individual.
The verse even says its to "any man". That would indicate that God is talking to individuals within that church.
I think for the most part our terminologies came about for good reasons. Rather than reject them out of hand, Id rather see us learn more about their origins and really delve into their meaning....helping those we are talking to to understand.
Like saying "I got saved"....I don't see anything wrong with that at all. After saying that, we tell from what, and by Whom.....its all part of the testimony.
I feel concerned that if we continue to fret so much over terminologies we will actually wind up stifling our witness. If you really care about the person you are witnessing to you are going to do all you can to explain what you are saying....regardless of the terminology you begin with. But don't let it become such a fear that it actually stops you from saying anything, or makes you sound confused when you do talk.
[ January 28, 2006, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: bapmom ]
I think for the most part our terminologies came about for good reasons. Rather than reject them out of hand, Id rather see us learn more about their origins and really delve into their meaning....helping those we are talking to to understand.
Like saying "I got saved"....I don't see anything wrong with that at all. After saying that, we tell from what, and by Whom.....its all part of the testimony.
I feel concerned that if we continue to fret so much over terminologies we will actually wind up stifling our witness. If you really care about the person you are witnessing to you are going to do all you can to explain what you are saying....regardless of the terminology you begin with. But don't let it become such a fear that it actually stops you from saying anything, or makes you sound confused when you do talk.
[ January 28, 2006, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: bapmom ]
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Pick up your cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
Tom Butler
New Member
Bro. Ed,
Wal, y'see, there's some magic words you can say. We call it the sinner's prayer. Uh, you don't know what to say? Okay, I have the magic words for you, just repeat them aftert me. "Dear Heavenly Father..."
Oops, wait a minute, you're lost, He's not your heavenly Father yet, so you can't say that. Okay, let's try this: "Dear Lord.." Hold it, He not yet your Lord. He can't be until you finish saying the rest of the magic words. Okay, I got it. "Dear God..." Naw, God's not dear to you yet, not until we finish this prayer, so that won't work.
Sorry, I just had this irresistible burst of sarcasm in me. Man, I used this in soul-winning until I got to searching for it in the Scriptures. Imagine the shock I felt when I couldn't find it. Oh, I know about the publican who prayed "God be merciful to me, a sinner." But the strange thing is that, nobody was witnessing to him at the time.
Imagine my shock when I read where the fellow his friends let down through a hole in the roof never a word. Jesus just declared his sins forgiven. No prayer, no nothing.
Gee whiz, I just can't get over the episode in Acts, when some folks asked Peter, "what should we do?" and he told them to repent. Or in Acts 16, where Paul and Silas told the jailer to believe. No prayer.
Sorry, Ed, I know this is not a direct answer to your request to tell you how to be saved. Before we answer your request, maybe we ought to examine all the conversion experiences recorded in the Bible, and see what we can glean from them.
Tom B
Wal, y'see, there's some magic words you can say. We call it the sinner's prayer. Uh, you don't know what to say? Okay, I have the magic words for you, just repeat them aftert me. "Dear Heavenly Father..."
Oops, wait a minute, you're lost, He's not your heavenly Father yet, so you can't say that. Okay, let's try this: "Dear Lord.." Hold it, He not yet your Lord. He can't be until you finish saying the rest of the magic words. Okay, I got it. "Dear God..." Naw, God's not dear to you yet, not until we finish this prayer, so that won't work.
Sorry, I just had this irresistible burst of sarcasm in me. Man, I used this in soul-winning until I got to searching for it in the Scriptures. Imagine the shock I felt when I couldn't find it. Oh, I know about the publican who prayed "God be merciful to me, a sinner." But the strange thing is that, nobody was witnessing to him at the time.
Imagine my shock when I read where the fellow his friends let down through a hole in the roof never a word. Jesus just declared his sins forgiven. No prayer, no nothing.
Gee whiz, I just can't get over the episode in Acts, when some folks asked Peter, "what should we do?" and he told them to repent. Or in Acts 16, where Paul and Silas told the jailer to believe. No prayer.
Sorry, Ed, I know this is not a direct answer to your request to tell you how to be saved. Before we answer your request, maybe we ought to examine all the conversion experiences recorded in the Bible, and see what we can glean from them.
Tom B
Ed,
First Id start off with you have to realize you are a sinner and that you have fallen short of the glory of God. Sin brings its own wages...death. While most people realize they do sin, many of them do not think of sin the way God does. They think their sin isn't all that bad, so there's a chance they could "make it", since they aren't that bad.
Then Id tell you about what Christ did on the cross for you, and tell you that you need to not rely on how nice you are, or the fact that you aren't as bad as your neighbour, but realize that only Jesus is perfect, and only Jesus can pay that price for sin.
Then Id tell you to place your trust in Christ to pay for those sins. Repent, turn from trusting in yourself and from thinking you really aren't all that bad....and turn towards Jesus Christ.
Believe on Jesus as your saviour.
First Id start off with you have to realize you are a sinner and that you have fallen short of the glory of God. Sin brings its own wages...death. While most people realize they do sin, many of them do not think of sin the way God does. They think their sin isn't all that bad, so there's a chance they could "make it", since they aren't that bad.
Then Id tell you about what Christ did on the cross for you, and tell you that you need to not rely on how nice you are, or the fact that you aren't as bad as your neighbour, but realize that only Jesus is perfect, and only Jesus can pay that price for sin.
Then Id tell you to place your trust in Christ to pay for those sins. Repent, turn from trusting in yourself and from thinking you really aren't all that bad....and turn towards Jesus Christ.
Believe on Jesus as your saviour.
Hi Tom Butler,
You have made a lot of interesting comments. But I think you are over-projecting your own former misunderstanding onto other people.
I am saved. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. I did walk an aisle and say a "sinner's prayer". But I never thought nor was I ever told that the "magic" sinner's prayer saved. The Lord Jesus Christ saves.
Karen
You have made a lot of interesting comments. But I think you are over-projecting your own former misunderstanding onto other people.
I am saved. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. I did walk an aisle and say a "sinner's prayer". But I never thought nor was I ever told that the "magic" sinner's prayer saved. The Lord Jesus Christ saves.
Karen