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Retribultion Theology
- Thread starter agedman
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But most seem to believe this was a substitution (God punished Jesus as if He were a sinner, not as if He were a sinful act). I am not sure that it makes sense to say that sins are punished.
Perhaps, but then "corrective judgment ignored" results in the consequences, not retributive justice.
Only if you want to argue that there is no such thing as retributive justice.
False dichotomy again. There are no sins unless someone commits them, and no sinners unless they commit sins. God hates sin and punishes those who commit them. Praise God He has punished me for mine in Jesus Christ.
'Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate.......' (1 Timothy 1:9).
This is what was said - "God punishes the sin and the sinner".
Let me break it down:
"God punishes the sin"
"[God punishes] the sinner"
I agree that God punishes the sinner, but not that God punishes the sinful act (which is something that cannot be punished). Scripture teaches that sins are manifestations....or fruit....of the sinner.
If you disagree, then explain how God punishes the sin.
There is no such a thing as biblical retributive justice. Even "an eye for an eye" was a limitation rather than prescriptive and this rejected by Christ who said for us to forgive as we have been forgiven.Only if you want to argue that there is no such thing as retributive justice.
As I say, it's a false dichotomy that leads us into empty speculation, but if you insist, God punishes sinners for their sins.
Ah....then I agree. That was exactly my point (sorry, I though your reply was in disagreement....it's been a long day).
One man cannot be punished for the sins of another as it is not sins but the actual sinner who is condemned (sins are manifestations of sinfulness). God could not justly punish Christ for the sins we committed because it is not sins that need to be punished.
Well plainly "an eye for an eye" is retributive justice. To be sure it's a limitation, but if it wasn't, it wouldn't be justice, would it?
"Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; wives of Lamech, listen to my speech. For I have killed a man for wounding me, even a young man for hurting me. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, then Lamech seventy-sevenfold" (Genesis 4:23).
That is retribution, but it's not justice. Christians are told to leave retribution to God (Romans 12:19).
I think you'll find He can. Isaiah 53:4-6. As I say, it's a false dichotomy.
You are misunderstanding "for" to mean Christ was punished as if He had committed our sins rather than as the remedy for our sins. The CoC here does the same with baptism ("for" the forgiveness of sins). Scripture testifies to Scripture.
Yes. No one is talking about retribution. What Calvin supposed was a context of retributive justice. Scripture does not impose that on God.
And "an eye for an eye" is not necessairly retributive justice either....unless it doesn't matter whose eye is taken. Here it is restorative dealing with Israel (not prescriptive but limiting).
OK, does God believe in punishment for sin: YES!
Genesis 19:15, Psalms 94:23, and so many curses found in the bible for sin that I don't feel in the mood to find more.
What of Romans 12:19 and Romans 13:3-4? Of course God will punish the wicked in the next world and maybe even in this one, if He gets exactly what He wants: just rulers.
Is pain always caused by sin? No, just look at Job and Jesus.
I guess I fail to see the point of this argument and must step away. It seems you guys are doing what Medieval and Early Christian theologians did: argue over minutiae as you try to describe a God beyond knowing to the point of giving advice (Romans 11:33-36).
Genesis 19:15, Psalms 94:23, and so many curses found in the bible for sin that I don't feel in the mood to find more.
What of Romans 12:19 and Romans 13:3-4? Of course God will punish the wicked in the next world and maybe even in this one, if He gets exactly what He wants: just rulers.
Is pain always caused by sin? No, just look at Job and Jesus.
I guess I fail to see the point of this argument and must step away. It seems you guys are doing what Medieval and Early Christian theologians did: argue over minutiae as you try to describe a God beyond knowing to the point of giving advice (Romans 11:33-36).
If I get a parking ticket all that matters, in terms of justice, is that the ticket is paid. It doesn’t matter who pays the ticket.
If you believe that divine justice is satisfied based on God expending His wrath against sin (the focus being crime and punishment) then you believe in retributive justice. God must be paid in full before He can forgive a debt (forgiveness means someone other than you pays the debt).
It is not minutiae. When Calvin placed the Atonement within the context of retributive justice everything took on a tone foreign to Scripture. It created a form of Christianity that had not existed for fifteen centuries but is often taken for granted in western Christianity today.
I think something that everyone is missing is that the New Testament forgiveness of sins is not a Western courtroom drama like how we are normally told. That Jesus died in our place as an innocent man dying for the guilty man. Like an innocent man can simply tell the warden that he will die for the convict instead. That makes no sense to the bible or our own customs. I also see no evidence of this perspective in the bible.
Instead, I see a courtroom drama before Solomon or Deborah. Where you have a guilty person who is repentant and allowed to live (a remarkable thing in the OT and in line with the bible) but in addition they are atoned for mysteriously by a sacrifice on the altar and made right with God Himself, the chief Person sinned against. In this way the full recompense of their sin is forgiven, something that didn't even happen for David when he repented of adultery with Bathsheba and murdering Uriah. He still lost a young child and was deposed by his son Absalom according to God's will.
Good luck with restoring the guy's eye!
That was funny. On a more sincere note, restorative justice is still a type of justice. In terms of divine justice it means that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. It has God, not man, in view.
Jesus was the Sin Bearer before the father for us, and God treated Him as if he who knew no sin had became sin for us!
You keep on rejecting the wrath of God that must be poured out upon those who have sinned, and that was the very Cup of suffering jesus experienced!
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