Rev. 9:10: Historical Facts vs. Futurist Fiction

[Yeshua1]

I am a Partial Preterist, still looking for Christ to return again.

Full blown view is heresy!

 

[Lodic]

Full blown view is heresy!

Many Christians - including a lot of Partial Preterists - hold that view full Preterism is heresy. Personally, I think it's unorthodox, but not heretical in the sense of denying the Trinity or the divinity of Christ.

 

[Lodic]

HIS soon is different from mere human soon.

And all the rhetoric one can post is no substitute for the FACT that those events haven't yet happened.

The flip side of that also holds. No amount of rhetoric can change these events to future fulfillment, nor change any past fulfilled events. Just a circular argument.

 

[robycop3]

The flip side of that also holds. No amount of rhetoric can change these events to future fulfillment, nor change any past fulfilled events. Just a circular argument.

Not at all. SCRIPTURE says they'll happen, so they will, as Scripture is always right. History says they haven't yet happened, so they're still future.

Again, no amount of rhetoric, posturing, or guessing can overcome the FACT that the eschatological prophecies have NOT yet come to pass.

 

[Lodic]

Not at all. SCRIPTURE says they'll happen, so they will, as Scripture is always right. History says they haven't yet happened, so they're still future.

Again, no amount of rhetoric, posturing, or guessing can overcome the FACT that the eschatological prophecies have NOT yet come to pass.

That's the point - Scripture said they would happen, and history shows they have. Repeating the same points over and over doesn't change anything. Neither of us are saying anything we haven't said before. Shall we just accept the fact that neither of us will change the other's mind?

 

[robycop3]

That's the point - Scripture said they would happen, and history shows they have.

No, history does NOT show they have! Please show us from history they have ! !
Tell us who the beast & false prophet were.
Tell us what the marka the beast looked like.
Tell us when all life in the Mediterranean Sea died.
Tell us when all the water turned to blood since the plagues of Egypt.
Tell us when the antichrist & false prophet entered the temple in Jurusalem, which doesn't now exist.

Repeating the same points over and over doesn't change anything. Neither of us are saying anything we haven't said before. Shall we just accept the fact that neither of us will change the other's mind?

I, & many others here, have proven preterism false, so we seek to prevent others from believing that lie that you're apparently in thrall to.

 

[37818]

I am a Partial Preterist, still looking for Christ to return again.

Thank you.
For all here to note that @Lodic is an Orthodox Preterist.

 

[Lodic]

As I've said before, the Beast was Nero/Rome; False Prophet was apostate Israel; the Mark of the Beast may not have been a literal mark, just as those marked for Christ don't have a literal mark.

All life in the sea dying and the waters becoming red with blood both refer to the massive slaughter of the Jewish Wars ending in 70 A.D. Since the FP is Apostate Israel, they were in Jerusalem in 70. As a student of history, you know that Titus led the Roman army into Jerusalem.

Since I've repeated things that I've told you before, I'm sure you will reply with things you've told me before. Our discussion just recycles the same points over and over.

 

[37818]

As I've said before, the Beast was Nero/Rome; False Prophet was apostate Israel; the Mark of the Beast may not have been a literal mark, just as those marked for Christ don't have a literal mark.

All life in the sea dying and the waters becoming red with blood both refer to the massive slaughter of the Jewish Wars ending in 70 A.D. Since the FP is Apostate Israel, they were in Jerusalem in 70. As a student of history, you know that Titus led the Roman army into Jerusalem.

Since I've repeated things that I've told you before, I'm sure you will reply with things you've told me before. Our discussion just recycles the same points over and over.

Can you give the steps of understanding, step by step, how you came to your understanding? [FYI, I hold a post trib pre mill futurist view point.]

 

[robycop3]

As I've said before, the Beast was Nero/Rome;

No; Nero failed tp meet many of the Scriptural criteria for the beast, even though he was a bad guy. For instence, he was ELECTED caesar by the Senate; he did not overthrow 3 other rulers to gain his office. Nor was he ever in Jerusalem, let alone entered the temple. And clearly the beast will be a man.

False Prophet was apostate Israel;

No; clearly he will be a man. How could ALL of apostate Israel enter the temple ????????????

the Mark of the Beast may not have been a literal mark, just as those marked for Christ don't have a literal mark.

No; it'll be literal. Nothing figurative/symbolic can go onto one's hand or forehead.

All life in the sea dying and the waters becoming red with blood both refer to the massive slaughter of the Jewish Wars ending in 70 A.D.

A pure stretch! However, iron won't stretch too far. This is pure guesswork.

Since the FP is Apostate Israel, they were in Jerusalem in 70. As a student of history, you know that Titus led the Roman army into Jerusalem.

ALL of apostate Israel couldn't even fit into Jerusalem!

Not trying to be smart-aleck, but all you've offered is fantasy, imagination, & guesswork!
I provided facts.

Since I've repeated things that I've told you before, I'm sure you will reply with things you've told me before. Our discussion just recycles the same points over and over.

You're correct; it'll take the HOLY SPIRIT to cause you to see the truth. But perhaps I can help others not to fall for that fairy tale of a false doctrine.

 

[Lodic]

Can you give the steps of understanding, step by step, how you came to your understanding? [FYI, I hold a post trib pre mill futurist view point.]

I was just thinking of a scene from "The Princess Bride". Indigo: "Let me explain. No, it's too much. Let me sum up." I adopted the Preterist view after a detailed study of the Olivet Discourse. I never bought into the Dispensational view, but I became disillusioned with the futurist view during the Persian Gulf War, when things really happen as I expected.

I ran across some articles on the American Vision website that I found intriguing. "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar was the first book I read with the Preterist perspective. DeMar made lots of sense, so I read more books from him, Ken Gentry, R.C. Sproul, and others.

Partial Preterism answers all the questions about the End Times that the "futurist" left unanswered. What had been confusing has become clear.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I was just thinking of a scene from "The Princess Bride". Indigo: "Let me explain. No, it's too much. Let me sum up." I adopted the Preterist view after a detailed study of the Olivet Discourse. I never bought into the Dispensational view, but I became disillusioned with the futurist view during the Persian Gulf War, when things really happen as I expected.

I ran across some articles on the American Vision website that I found intriguing. "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar was the first book I read with the Preterist perspective. DeMar made lots of sense, so I read more books from him, Ken Gentry, R.C. Sproul, and others.

Partial Preterism answers all the questions about the End Times that the "futurist" left unanswered. What had been confusing has become clear.

To hold that Nero/Rome was the beast and apostate Israel was the false prophet is to so distort the language of Scripture as to make language meaningless.

 

[Lodic]

No; Nero failed tp meet many of the Scriptural criteria for the beast, even though he was a bad guy. For instence, he was ELECTED caesar by the Senate; he did not overthrow 3 other rulers to gain his office. Nor was he ever in Jerusalem, let alone entered the temple. And clearly the beast will be a man.


No; clearly he will be a man. How could ALL of apostate Israel enter the temple ????????????

No; it'll be literal. Nothing figurative/symbolic can go onto one's hand or forehead.


A pure stretch! However, iron won't stretch too far. This is pure guesswork.


ALL of apostate Israel couldn't even fit into Jerusalem!

Not trying to be smart-aleck, but all you've offered is fantasy, imagination, & guesswork!
I provided facts.


You're correct; it'll take the HOLY SPIRIT to cause you to see the truth. But perhaps I can help others not to fall for that fairy tale of a false doctrine.

The Holy Spirit has led me to the true views of the "End Times". That's why I am a Partial Preterist.

I'm don't have time to rehash the same arguments now. It doesn't matter what I say though. You have your views, I have mine, and time will tell.

 

[37818]

. . . that the "futurist" left unanswered. . . .

Well, what? I hold that there are to be only two appearings of our Lord Jesus Christ, Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13.

 

[robycop3]

I was just thinking of a scene from "The Princess Bride". Indigo: "Let me explain. No, it's too much. Let me sum up." I adopted the Preterist view after a detailed study of the Olivet Discourse. I never bought into the Dispensational view, but I became disillusioned with the futurist view during the Persian Gulf War, when things really happen as I expected.

I ran across some articles on the American Vision website that I found intriguing. "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar was the first book I read with the Preterist perspective. DeMar made lots of sense, so I read more books from him, Ken Gentry, R.C. Sproul, and others.

Partial Preterism answers all the questions about the End Times that the "futurist" left unanswered. What had been confusing has become clear.

Just study history more-closely, with a Bible handy while you do. See where the empires fell, as shown to Daniel. None of them fell overnight. The Medo-Persian empire at first was dominated by the Medes til Cyrus The Great became king of the Persians, & forced the king of the Medes out, then the Persians became dominant. Cyrus forced Nabonidas, king of Babylon to surrender, & made Babylon a province pf Persia, as it grew less-important & powerful.

In 330 BC, Alexander The Great defeated the army of Darius & pretty well ended the Persian empire, as its non-Persian or Mede peoples formed their own nations without a persian leader & army to cpntrol them, & Alexander & his successors ruled them loosely. And we all know that when Alex died, his empire was split by his 4 generals into 4 separate empires. Scripture deals only with the Seleucid & Ptolemaic empires. Then, of course, as the Roman empire grew, it absorbed the old empires of Alex's generals. The last sovereign nation among them to fall to the Romans was Cleopatra's Egypt in 31 BC.

So, Danny's vision LITERALLY came to pass, over the course of some 500 years. There's absolutely NO REASON to believe the rest won't come to pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

The beast will be a prince of the people daniel was told would destroy Jerusalem.Since J was already destroyed at the time, this could only have been future in Danny's time, & the only other time it ws destroyed after then was in 70 AD by the Romans. And Titus did NOT rule in J nor enter the temple, so he was not the beast. After sacking J, the Roman army returned home with Titus, to great honor.("Titus' arch" still stands in Rome today !)

DeMar, Gentry, Preston, Sproul, & other pret authors are all charlatans, out to sell boox, truth be dipped. People, please don't believe their garbage, as Scripture & history together prove it to be garbage!

 

[robycop3]

The Holy Spirit has led me to the true views of the "End Times". That's why I am a Partial Preterist.

I'm don't have time to rehash the same arguments now. It doesn't matter what I say though. You have your views, I have mine, and time will tell.

Are you sure it was the HOLY Spirit?????????????(Lying demons are spirits, too!)

He doesn't lie, & preterism is a whole pack of lies. You cannot prove a single one of its points, while I can easily & quickly DISprove any of them.

 

[Lodic]

Well, what? I hold that there are to be only two appearings of our Lord Jesus Christ, Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13.

Agreed. The unanswered questions were more about how the prophecies play out. When looking at the prophecies as fulfilled in 67-70 A.D., the puzzle came together.

 

[Lodic]

To hold that Nero/Rome was the beast and apostate Israel was the false prophet is to so distort the language of Scripture as to make language meaningless.

I don't see how that is distorting the language of Scripture. Most Christians agree that Revelation uses a lot of symbolism. Just a matter of proper interpretation.

 

[37818]

Agreed. The unanswered questions were more about how the prophecies play out. When looking at the prophecies as fulfilled in 67-70 A.D., the puzzle came together.

I honestly do not see Jesus answering any were in Matthew 24 Jesus teaching Matthew 24:2 re:70AD having to do with His coming Matthew 24:27-31, etc.

 

[Lodic]

Just study history more-closely, with a Bible handy while you do. See where the empires fell, as shown to Daniel. None of them fell overnight. The Medo-Persian empire at first was dominated by the Medes til Cyrus The Great became king of the Persians, & forced the king of the Medes out, then the Persians became dominant. Cyrus forced Nabonidas, king of Babylon to surrender, & made Babylon a province pf Persia, as it grew less-important & powerful.

In 330 BC, Alexander The Great defeated the army of Darius & pretty well ended the Persian empire, as its non-Persian or Mede peoples formed their own nations without a persian leader & army to cpntrol them, & Alexander & his successors ruled them loosely. And we all know that when Alex died, his empire was split by his 4 generals into 4 separate empires. Scripture deals only with the Seleucid & Ptolemaic empires. Then, of course, as the Roman empire grew, it absorbed the old empires of Alex's generals. The last sovereign nation among them to fall to the Romans was Cleopatra's Egypt in 31 BC.

So, Danny's vision LITERALLY came to pass, over the course of some 500 years. There's absolutely NO REASON to believe the rest won't come to pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

The beast will be a prince of the people daniel was told would destroy Jerusalem.Since J was already destroyed at the time, this could only have been future in Danny's time, & the only other time it ws destroyed after then was in 70 AD by the Romans. And Titus did NOT rule in J nor enter the temple, so he was not the beast. After sacking J, the Roman army returned home with Titus, to great honor.("Titus' arch" still stands in Rome today !)

DeMar, Gentry, Preston, Sproul, & other pret authors are all charlatans, out to sell boox, truth be dipped. People, please don't believe their garbage, as Scripture & history together prove it to be garbage!

Oddly enough, I used to be guilty of "newspaper eiseges", reading prophecies in the news because that's what I was looking for. Now I carefully study Scripture and see where prophecies have been fulfilled in history. That is, it's because I understand the Bible and history that I have a Preterist view.
DeMar, etc al understand the proper view of eschatology.