Rev. 9:10: Historical Facts vs. Futurist Fiction

[Lodic]

Are you sure it was the HOLY Spirit?????????????(Lying demons are spirits, too!)

He doesn't lie, & preterism is a whole pack of lies. You cannot prove a single one of its points, while I can easily & quickly DISprove any of them.

Of course the Holy Spirit doesn't lie. I ask the same of you. You are unable to provide anything except opinions and conjecture. I've proven Preterism many times. You remain willfully blind to the evidence.

 

[Lodic]

I honestly do not see Jesus answering any were in Matthew 24 Jesus teaching Matthew 24:2 re:70AD having to do with His coming Matthew 24:27-31, etc.

A lot of people see separate topics in the Olivet Discourse. It's clear that Jesus points to the destruction of the Temple at the beginning, when He answered thequestions. He never changed the topic.

 

[robycop3]

Agreed. The unanswered questions were more about how the prophecies play out. When looking at the prophecies as fulfilled in 67-70 A.D., the puzzle came together.

The only ones then fulfilled were the destruction of J & the temple, & the carrying out of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews, as Jesus prophesied.

Oddly enough, I used to be guilty of "newspaper eiseges", reading prophecies in the news because that's what I was looking for. Now I carefully study Scripture and see where prophecies have been fulfilled in history. That is, it's because I understand the Bible and history that I have a Preterist view.
DeMar, etc al understand the proper view of eschatology.

Thing is, even if your partial pret view was correct (which it ISN'T !) there's a big prob, as Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. So, if the trib had noccurred then, (Which it DIDN'T !) then, Jesus would be 'WAY overdue !

I've read some of De Mar's stuff, & it's all conjecture, imagination, & guesswork, same as all other pro-pret literature.

Now, Revelation says the antichrist/beast will be ruling every people on earth. Nero, Titus, etc. never did that. Nor did any of them have a prominent miracle-working false prophet as a deputy. There was no statue set up in the temple in Jerusalem since Antiochus Epiphanes did it in the 160s BC, & it was a statue of Zeus, not himself. And the marka the beast will certainly be physical. The tech for implantable microchips exists now, & that's what I think it'll be. And who's to say what kinda mark God will bestow on the 144K during the trib?

Now, don't forget that the prophecies must be fulfilled EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER. And many were NOT thus fulfilled in 66-70 AD besides nthe destruction of J & the temple, & the "days of vengeance" upon that generation of Jews.

 

[robycop3]

Of course the Holy Spirit doesn't like. I ask the same of you. You are unable to provide anything except opinions and conjecture. I've proven Preterism many times. You remain willfully blind to the evidence.

No; you haven't proven preterism by the slightest quark And I'm not blind to your"evidence"; it's simply incorrect, a fairy tale.

I have pointed out several of the eschatological prophecies, and you've given fantastic, guesswork answers about their fulfillment.

Then, there's your unsolvable problem (for all prets) about Jesus' return. He plainly said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB. You may use any legitimate Bible version, or any ancient Greek ms. of the Book of Matthew; they all say the same thing. So, either Jesus is 'WAY-overdue, or the trib hasn't yet happened! No other possibilities !

 

[Lodic]

The only ones then fulfilled were the destruction of J & the temple, & the carrying out of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews, as Jesus prophesied.


Thing is, even if your partial pret view was correct (which it ISN'T !) there's a big prob, as Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. So, if the trib had noccurred then, (Which it DIDN'T !) then, Jesus would be 'WAY overdue !

I've read some of De Mar's stuff, & it's all conjecture, imagination, & guesswork, same as all other pro-pret literature.

Now, Revelation says the antichrist/beast will be ruling every people on earth. Nero, Titus, etc. never did that. Nor did any of them have a prominent miracle-working false prophet as a deputy. There was no statue set up in the temple in Jerusalem since Antiochus Epiphanes did it in the 160s BC, & it was a statue of Zeus, not himself. And the marka the beast will certainly be physical. The tech for implantable microchips exists now, & that's what I think it'll be. And who's to say what kinda mark God will bestow on the 144K during the trib?

Now, don't forget that the prophecies must be fulfilled EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER. And many were NOT thus fulfilled in 66-70 AD besides nthe destruction of J & the temple, & the "days of vengeance" upon that generation of Jews.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, plus the end of the Old Covenant system is the topic of the entire Olivet Discourse.

Jesus didn't literally, but He did return when He "came" in judgment in 70 A.D.

Revelation doesn't tell us that the Beast will rule kosmos, but oikumene. Big difference between the entire world and the Roman Empire.

Yes, the prophecies were indeed fulfilled to the letter.

 

[Lodic]

No; you haven't proven preterism by the slightest quark And I'm not blind to your"evidence"; it's simply incorrect, a fairy tale.

I have pointed out several of the eschatological prophecies, and you've given fantastic, guesswork answers about their fulfillment.

Then, there's your unsolvable problem (for all prets) about Jesus' return. He plainly said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB. You may use any legitimate Bible version, or any ancient Greek ms. of the Book of Matthew; they all say the same thing. So, either Jesus is 'WAY-overdue, or the trib hasn't yet happened! No other possibilities !

To state the obvious, we have entirely different interpretations, and will not agree. I say the Futurist view is wrong and you say the Preterist view is wrong. Each of us give the same arguments. Don't you feel like a broken record?

 

[37818]

A lot of people see separate topics in the Olivet Discourse. It's clear that Jesus points to the destruction of the Temple at the beginning, when He answered thequestions. He never changed the topic.

Matthew 24:3, ". . . And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus spoke only of the distruction of the temple as in verse 2. His disiples asked 3 questions. Please. What evidence was there recorded that Jesus anywhere at any time answered the first of those three questions?

 

[timtofly]

???

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?`
34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass. Mt 24 YLT

26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested; Heb 9 YLT

11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come, 1 Cor 10 YLT

Which age? The one they were in ended in a few hours on the Cross. Jesus did not explain that in the Olivet Discourse. The church will end at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Then the last age of the Lord's Day itself. Jesus never said when these 3 ages would end in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[timtofly]

Oddly enough, I used to be guilty of "newspaper eiseges", reading prophecies in the news because that's what I was looking for. Now I carefully study Scripture and see where prophecies have been fulfilled in history. That is, it's because I understand the Bible and history that I have a Preterist view.
DeMar, etc al understand the proper view of eschatology.

History is all "newspaper eiseges". Trying to fit the "record" into Biblical Prophecy.

 

[timtofly]

A lot of people see separate topics in the Olivet Discourse. It's clear that Jesus points to the destruction of the Temple at the beginning, when He answered thequestions. He never changed the topic.

Yes He changed the topic. He never told them when Jerusalem would be destroyed in Matthew 24. And He pointed out the end was not yet, even after many wars and other nations would come and go. The end would not happen until the whole world heard the Gospel. Then He pointed out He would come again and gather His people out of the nations like sheep and goats. He did not say out of the Roman Empire. He also said the whole world would be troubled. How did the attack in 70AD effect India, China, Japan, and the Americas?

 

[timtofly]

The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, plus the end of the Old Covenant system is the topic of the entire Olivet Discourse.

Jesus didn't literally, but He did return when He "came" in judgment in 70 A.D.

Revelation doesn't tell us that the Beast will rule kosmos, but oikumene. Big difference between the entire world and the Roman Empire.

Yes, the prophecies were indeed fulfilled to the letter.

Which verse in Matthew 24 and 25 shows the end of the Old Covenant?

The destruction in 70AD was not the end of the church. Jesus was talking about the end of the church, before it had even started.

The whole problem is that neither the OD nor Revelation is talking about the end of the OT. That is full preterism applying the church age to the events leading up to 70AD, and claiming both the OT and NT all ended in 70AD. That is the full letter of prophecy. Literally there has been no age since 70AD, is the twisted claim.

The end is the end, period. Satan, the FP, and the beast can only appear after the church is taken out of the earth. Then the Separation of the sheep and goats and the final harvest by Jesus Christ Himself on the earth, then Satan is allowed if there are any leftovers. The church is still reaping the harvest, so the end has not happened, nor any of the Trumpets. All this has to happen before Satan is given control of the earth. Conflating Revelation with the OD and stamping the date 70AD on it, is not even historically accurate to Revelations. It is like reading a bad newspaper headline and guessing at fulfillment. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke were written after 70AD and not one of them declares that Jerusalem or the Temple was destroyed as fulfilled prophecy. The reader was supposed to know certain things, yet the prophecy was left in written form about things that were still future, after 70AD and the actual writings. If it were not for two Roman historians, we would not even have known from the Bible itself what did happen. The church was not even concerned nor placed 70AD as any importance at all, based on the inspiration and text given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[robycop3]

The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, plus the end of the Old Covenant system is the topic of the entire Olivet Discourse.

Jesus didn't literally, but He did return when He "came" in judgment in 70 A.D.

Revelation doesn't tell us that the Beast will rule kosmos, but oikumene. Big difference between the entire world and the Roman Empire.

Yes, the prophecies were indeed fulfilled to the letter.

No, they weren't. Not yet.

No beast/antichrist.
No world empire that began with 10 nations.
No 'abomination of desolation'.
No great trib.
No marka the beast.

And this is but a short list of prophecies not yet fulfilled.

 

[robycop3]

To state the obvious, we have entirely different interpretations, and will not agree. I say the Futurist view is wrong and you say the Preterist view is wrong. Each of us give the same arguments. Don't you feel like a broken record?

It bears repeating long as you keep posting an incorrect view.

I have many authorative unbiased works of history, as well as 11 English Bible versions before me. The Bible versions all have the same basic translations of Daniel, the Gospels, 2 Thess. & Revelation in them, giving the same prophecies about the eschatological events. And, in all those history boox, the only fulfillment from the Olivet Discourse is the destruction of J & the temple. That was the main event of the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews declared by Jesus.

The Old Covenant ended at the "Last Supper", but didn't go into full effect of being replaced by the New Covenant til Jesus' death & resurrection.

Jesus didn't return at all in 66-70 AD except to be Spiritually present whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, as He is today.

And you forget that the Jews suffered a much-greater & longer punishment for their rejection/murder of Jesus, beginning 135-136 AD when Caesar Hadrian booted them outta their land, a punishment that lasted into 1945, culminating in the nazi holocaust. This is all recorded in the various history worx.

But NONE of the other events have occurred yet. You cannot show us that they have. Your guesswork and "replacement events" don't cut it. The prophecies MUST be fulfilled EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER! The beast will be both the antichrist and his empire. That empire must begin with 10 nations that were once part of the Roman and/or Holy Roman empires,(Rev. 17) who will appoint the antichrist to be their ruler. He will have to overthrow the rulers of 3 of those nations. He & his empire will gain control of virtually every people on earth; none will be able to oppose him. Now you know as well as I do that this is in Scripture & it hasn't yet happened.

And this didn't occur in the Roman empire. The events will have to be from the time of Domitian onward. But let's say Rev was written before 70 AD.(VERY doubtful.) (Nero was Caesar til 68 AD,) NONE of the subsequent Caesars overthrew 3 other rulers to become Caesar, nor entered the temple in Jerusalem, nor had a miracle-working false prophet as his sidekick.(The temple was destroyed against Titus' orders, & despite legends to the contrary, he didn't enter it. Besides, he was not Caesar til 9 years later.) You may search any legitimate work of history on earth to try to find the occurrence of such events, but it'll be in vain.

So see, I CAN, & HAVE PROVEN that preterism is false, & you have no truthful nor correct counters for those FACTS.

So, YES, the TRUTH needs repeating in the face of falsehood !

 

[37818]

The Old Covenant ended at the "Last Supper", but didn't go into full effect of being replaced by the New Covenant til Jesus' death & resurrection.

The Old Covenant did not end with the "Last Supper." But with the finished work on the cross which that supper is to be a rememberance of. The resurrection is its confirmation, Romans 1:4, Romans 4:25.

 

[Lodic]

Matthew 24:3, ". . . And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus spoke only of the distruction of the temple as in verse 2. His disiples asked 3 questions. Please. What evidence was there recorded that Jesus anywhere at any time answered the first of those three questions?

These three questions are about the same thing. The Disciples saw this as one event, and Jesus answered by describing one event. History records the destruction of Jerusalem and the and the Temple in 70 A.D.

 

[Lodic]

History is all "newspaper eiseges". Trying to fit the "record" into Biblical Prophecy.

Newspaper eiseges is when you try to read prophecies into today's news. Proper Biblical exegesis is to study Scripture without a bias of looking for evidence to support any particular view.

 

[Lodic]

Yes He changed the topic. He never told them when Jerusalem would be destroyed in Matthew 24. And He pointed out the end was not yet, even after many wars and other nations would come and go. The end would not happen until the whole world heard the Gospel. Then He pointed out He would come again and gather His people out of the nations like sheep and goats. He did not say out of the Roman Empire. He also said the whole world would be troubled. How did the attack in 70AD effect India, China, Japan, and the Americas?

Jesus was answering His disciples' questions. He had no reason to change the subject and possibly leave them wonder what He was talking about.

The world Jesus was talking about was the Roman Empire, not the entire world. More specifically, He was describing the end of the Old Covenant system.

 

[Lodic]

Which verse in Matthew 24 and 25 shows the end of the Old Covenant?

The destruction in 70AD was not the end of the church. Jesus was talking about the end of the church, before it had even started.

The whole problem is that neither the OD nor Revelation is talking about the end of the OT. That is full preterism applying the church age to the events leading up to 70AD, and claiming both the OT and NT all ended in 70AD. That is the full letter of prophecy. Literally there has been no age since 70AD, is the twisted claim.

The end is the end, period. Satan, the FP, and the beast can only appear after the church is taken out of the earth. Then the Separation of the sheep and goats and the final harvest by Jesus Christ Himself on the earth, then Satan is allowed if there are any leftovers. The church is still reaping the harvest, so the end has not happened, nor any of the Trumpets. All this has to happen before Satan is given control of the earth. Conflating Revelation with the OD and stamping the date 70AD on it, is not even historically accurate to Revelations. It is like reading a bad newspaper headline and guessing at fulfillment. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke were written after 70AD and not one of them declares that Jerusalem or the Temple was destroyed as fulfilled prophecy. The reader was supposed to know certain things, yet the prophecy was left in written form about things that were still future, after 70AD and the actual writings. If it were not for two Roman historians, we would not even have known from the Bible itself what did happen. The church was not even concerned nor placed 70AD as any importance at all, based on the inspiration and text given by the Holy Spirit.

You are a Dispensational, aren't you?

 

[Lodic]

No, they weren't. Not yet.

No beast/antichrist.
No world empire that began with 10 nations.
No 'abomination of desolation'.
No great trib.
No marka the beast.

And this is but a short list of prophecies not yet fulfilled.

Each of those have been fulfilled.

 

[Lodic]

It bears repeating long as you keep posting an incorrect view.

I have many authorative unbiased works of history, as well as 11 English Bible versions before me. The Bible versions all have the same basic translations of Daniel, the Gospels, 2 Thess. & Revelation in them, giving the same prophecies about the eschatological events. And, in all those history boox, the only fulfillment from the Olivet Discourse is the destruction of J & the temple. That was the main event of the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews declared by Jesus.

The Old Covenant ended at the "Last Supper", but didn't go into full effect of being replaced by the New Covenant til Jesus' death & resurrection.

Jesus didn't return at all in 66-70 AD except to be Spiritually present whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, as He is today.

And you forget that the Jews suffered a much-greater & longer punishment for their rejection/murder of Jesus, beginning 135-136 AD when Caesar Hadrian booted them outta their land, a punishment that lasted into 1945, culminating in the nazi holocaust. This is all recorded in the various history worx.

But NONE of the other events have occurred yet. You cannot show us that they have. Your guesswork and "replacement events" don't cut it. The prophecies MUST be fulfilled EXACTLY, TO-THE-LETTER! The beast will be both the antichrist and his empire. That empire must begin with 10 nations that were once part of the Roman and/or Holy Roman empires,(Rev. 17) who will appoint the antichrist to be their ruler. He will have to overthrow the rulers of 3 of those nations. He & his empire will gain control of virtually every people on earth; none will be able to oppose him. Now you know as well as I do that this is in Scripture & it hasn't yet happened.

And this didn't occur in the Roman empire. The events will have to be from the time of Domitian onward. But let's say Rev was written before 70 AD.(VERY doubtful.) (Nero was Caesar til 68 AD,) NONE of the subsequent Caesars overthrew 3 other rulers to become Caesar, nor entered the temple in Jerusalem, nor had a miracle-working false prophet as his sidekick.(The temple was destroyed against Titus' orders, & despite legends to the contrary, he didn't enter it. Besides, he was not Caesar til 9 years later.) You may search any legitimate work of history on earth to try to find the occurrence of such events, but it'll be in vain.

So see, I CAN, & HAVE PROVEN that preterism is false, & you have no truthful nor correct counters for those FACTS.

So, YES, the TRUTH needs repeating in the face of falsehood !

I find it odd that although you are quite the expert on history, you fail to recognize fulfillment of "End Times" prophecies. You've only "proven" your views to those who have bought into the "futurist" view.