Rev. 9:10: Historical Facts vs. Futurist Fiction

[37818]

As a former "futurist", I understand the viewpoint. I think there is no basis for not connecting the questions. Jesus was talking about the end of the Old Covenant system. Their world was about to come crashing down.

I do not understanding a connection. There is something you are are understanding I am not getting.

 

[robycop3]

Or so you keep trying to convince me.

Then, simply **PROVE** it.

Again, tell us when all life in the Mediterranean died.

And when did an earthquake split Jerusalem into 3 parts? the last major quake to hit J was in 1927, killing 130 people, and it was far from the biggest quake the world had ever seen.

 

[robycop3]

While Mighty Casey struck out, I have not. We agree that "The End" refers to the end of the Age. We disagree on what "Age" is in view. It's the end of the Old Covenant system.

I have carefully studied Daniel, Thessalonians, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse. I know eschatology a lot better than you think that I do. I have learned to discern between passages that are to be taken literally and symbolic language. I know for a fact that these prophecies have been fulfilled.

I am familiar with Antiochus Epiphanes, and I agree this was an abomination of desolation. A foreshadowing of the Roman army's AOD. I have been on the road for the past week, so I can't go into detail about my views. I'm sure I've shared them before in a different discussion.

The WHOLE eschatological set of Scriptures should be taken literally, except where it's obviously symbolic, such as the dragon pursuing the woman, etc. And the LITERAL meanings are easily seen.

If you knew eschatology that well, you'd know preterism is false, & there are plenty of events yet to come.

And the Roman army didn't commit the AOD. Remember, SCRIPTURE says that it'll be the antichrist, Paul's man of sin, & the false prophet that'll do it, and that the antichrist shall declare himself to be God. The Romans didn't do THAT, nor did they issue any marka the beast from the temple, nor set up a statue in it that was supernaturally made to talk, causing the world to marvel. You're 'WAY off the mark !

 

[Yeshua1]

Many Christians - including a lot of Partial Preterists - hold that view full Preterism is heresy. Personally, I think it's unorthodox, but not heretical in the sense of denying the Trinity or the divinity of Christ.

Would be the same though as say Infant regeneration!

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you give the steps of understanding, step by step, how you came to your understanding? [FYI, I hold a post trib pre mill futurist view point.]

Premil is still the most biblical position!

 

[robycop3]

Premil is still the most biblical position!

I believe the order of events is clearly laid out in Scripture: coming of the beast/antichrist, rapture, AOD & marka the beast, great trib, Jesus' return, millenium.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe the order of events is clearly laid out in Scripture: coming of the beast/antichrist, rapture, AOD & marka the beast, great trib, Jesus' return, millenium.

I see the Rapture as the Second Coming event, but either way, still premil fits the messianic Age much better!

 

[timtofly]

Can you quote one verse that proves Jesus was talking about events hundreds or thousands of years in the future (of His original audience)? I am traveling for the next few days so I can't answer in much detail. The OD is literal history that was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.


Revelation 6:12-13

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The stars are the angels coming to earth. After this the 7 angels sound the Trumpet.

This is the Second Coming. The end of the church. The final harvest of Christ, Himself on earth. The 144k are His Second Coming disciples.

 

[Lodic]

I do not understanding a connection. There is something you are are understanding I am not getting.

Either that or I am missing what you are saying. You see the Disciples asking different questions about different topics, and Jesus giving separate answers. I see them asking one question and Jesus answering only that question.

 

[Lodic]

Then, simply **PROVE** it.

Again, tell us when all life in the Mediterranean died.

And when did an earthquake split Jerusalem into 3 parts? the last major quake to hit J was in 1927, killing 130 people, and it was far from the biggest quake the world had ever seen.

All life in the sea did not literally die. This was hyperbole.

 

[Lodic]

The WHOLE eschatological set of Scriptures should be taken literally, except where it's obviously symbolic, such as the dragon pursuing the woman, etc. And the LITERAL meanings are easily seen.

If you knew eschatology that well, you'd know preterism is false, & there are plenty of events yet to come.

And the Roman army didn't commit the AOD. Remember, SCRIPTURE says that it'll be the antichrist, Paul's man of sin, & the false prophet that'll do it, and that the antichrist shall declare himself to be God. The Romans didn't do THAT, nor did they issue any marka the beast from the temple, nor set up a statue in it that was supernaturally made to talk, causing the world to marvel. You're 'WAY off the mark !

A lot of eschatological passages are symbolic, especially in the Book of Revelation. There is no mention of "The Antichrist" anywhere in Scripture except in 1st and 2nd John.

The Futurist view simply doesn't make sense to me, and the Preterist view doesn't make sense to you.

 

[Lodic]

Would be the same though as say Infant regeneration!

I see your point, and I am tempted to agree. One of the key doctrines of our faith is looking for the return of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Siege of Jerusalem = 14 April – 8 September 70 CE
John wrote the book of Revelation = about 95-96 AD

Ice, Thomas D., "The Date of the Book of Revelation" (2009). Article Archives. 75.
The Date of the Book of Revelation

 

[asterisktom]

A lot of people see separate topics in the Olivet Discourse. It's clear that Jesus points to the destruction of the Temple at the beginning, when He answered thequestions. He never changed the topic.

It is interesting that dispensationalists almost always go to Matthew 24 for their text, hardly ever Mark or Luke. The reason might be twofold. First, the question at the beginning of that chapter is in three phrases, easy for them to cast them as three supposedly very separate questions. Secondly, the ordering of verses makes it easier for them to mark off what they consider is still future.

But the other two Synoptics show the events in a different order. And there are no three questions asked from the disciples - although Christ, in those other two books, answered the question as posed in Matthew 24.

So - there really was only one question.
And there really was one event described in all three of those Synoptics (and in the extended Olivet DIscourse of John - AKA the book of Revelation). That event was the coming of Christ in "this generation" meting out retribution and reward, respectively, to enemies and saints.

 

[robycop3]

I see the Rapture as the Second Coming event, but either way, still premil fits the messianic Age much better!

In the rapture, Jesus will call the saints to Him, rather than Him mcoming to them as He will do when He physically returns to earth & "touches down".

 

[robycop3]

All life in the sea did not literally die. This was hyperbole.

Yes, to a preterist who seeks to find an excuse to try to say it's already happened. That's all prets have-excuses, imagination, & guesswork.

 

[asterisktom]

Siege of Jerusalem = 14 April – 8 September 70 CE
John wrote the book of Revelation = about 95-96 AD

Ice, Thomas D., "The Date of the Book of Revelation" (2009). Article Archives. 75.
The Date of the Book of Revelation

I hope you reconsider the possibility that Ice is off. Aside from the weighty proof for a 60s date for Revelation we have the odd fact that John, supposedly having lived through the fall of Jerusalem and the epochal end of the Jewish Dispensation, makes no mention of it in his Book. He even writes as if the Temple was still standing. Which it was.

 

[robycop3]

A lot of eschatological passages are symbolic, especially in the Book of Revelation. There is no mention of "The Antichrist" anywhere in Scripture except in 1st and 2nd John.

The Futurist view simply doesn't make sense to me, and the Preterist view doesn't make sense to you.

The beast & the antichrist will be one & the same.

OF COURSE preterism doesn't make sense to me because history and reality prove it false.

 

[robycop3]

I hope you reconsider the possibility that Ice is off. Aside from the weighty proof for a 60s date for Revelation we have the odd fact that John, supposedly having lived through the fall of Jerusalem and the epochal end of the Jewish Dispensation, makes no mention of it in his Book. He even writes as if the Temple was still standing. Which it was.

The temples John wrote about are the heavenly one, which he calls just that, the millenial one he was told to measure, & the one the Jews will build in Jerusalem, where the AOD will occur.

Do a little research, & you'll see that the Jews have the construction materials & the instruments for use in a new temple ready. And also, they're breeding animals for use in temple rites, having bred several red heifers a few years back, among others. AND IN 2018, THEY BUILT & CONSECRATED AN ALTAR TO BE USED IN THAT TEMPLE WHEN BUILT ! !

Now, I'm not trying to be smart-aleck, but, as a Christian, I believe reality & history are shaped by Scripture, & reality is, the Jews will build a new temple in J when the time is right. They'll build it in just a few days with modern equipment, pre-fabbed parts, etc.

 

[asterisktom]

The temples John wrote about are the heavenly one, which he calls just that, the millenial one he was told to measure, & the one the Jews will build in Jerusalem, where the AOD will occur.

Do a little research, & you'll see that the Jews have the construction materials & the instruments for use in a new temple ready. And also, they're breeding animals for use in temple rites, having bred several red heifers a few years back, among others. AND IN 2018, THEY BUILT & CONSECRATED AN ALTAR TO BE USED IN THAT TEMPLE WHEN BUILT ! !

Now, I'm not trying to be smart-aleck, but, as a Christian, I believe reality & history are shaped by Scripture, & reality is, the Jews will build a new temple in J when the time is right. They'll build it in just a few days with modern equipment, pre-fabbed parts, etc.

Robycop, I "did a little research". I did a lot of it. I used to believe exactly as you did for around twenty years, giving money to Jews for Jesus, etc. Looking forward to that Third Temple. But at some point, among other red flags, some one pointed out to me just how would it be possible for any future temple to have an abomination on it. An abomination, biblically, is a violation of God's Law. How can this supposed temple be abominated when it in itself would be an abomination. The very building of it would be an abomination.

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)" - Matt. 24:15

"The Holy Place". That is a real problem for your view. There are no more holy places. So there cannot be any more abominations done in it, or to it.