Revelation 1:7 and Partial-Preterism

[Covenanter]

Also another verse is Matt 26:64 (NIV)

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[a]

Jesus was speaking to the high priest so surely he was speaking of a AD 70 fulfillment.

Jesus is making a prophecy they would immediately understand as claiming for himself the fulfilment of Daniel 7:

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.​

WOW!! So they judged him guilty of blasphemy & condemned him.

Jesus is prophesying his ascension rather than his coming to judge them. Soon his Apostles will preach the risen Lord Jesus, and thousands will see him by faith, or shut their eyes to that glorious truth, until they see him as their judge at their death, or if they are still alive, in the fulfilment of his Olivet prophecy in the destruction.

 

[agedman]

Jesus is making a prophecy they would immediately understand as claiming for himself the fulfilment of Daniel 7:

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.​

WOW!! So they judged him guilty of blasphemy & condemned him.

Jesus is prophesying his ascension rather than his coming to judge them. Soon his Apostles will preach the risen Lord Jesus, and thousands will see him by faith, or shut their eyes to that glorious truth, until they see him as their judge at their death, or if they are still alive, in the fulfilment of his Olivet prophecy in the destruction.

Actually, there is no reason to place Jesus’ statement as fulfilled at His ascension.

John in the Rev3lation puts such thinking to be inaccurate.

 

[robycop3]

So those that pierced him will see him from Hell?

No, from HADES.

 

[asterisktom]

This verse of prophecy, Rev. 1:7 written by John the apostle in approx. A.D. 96 deals a death blow to preterism which assigns Jesus Matt. 24 prophecy of the end of the world to the years surrounding A.D. 70.

All Jews who disbelieved will see Jesus come with all his saints at the 2nd coming. But most of them will see Him from hell. The rapture, Antichrist, plagues, mark of the beast, and the visible 2nd coming is yet to come. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

I was looking for the "sad" clickwidget but had to settle for "funny". There are just so many things wrong with this post, starting with the knee-jerk assumption of a late date for Revelation.

 

[asterisktom]

Two things come to mind,

1) I am too old to chase after much reading. I do well enough, but I have no interest in much words. So, no.
2) visual aids are generally helpful in putting a great amount of information on a single or a few pages. However the problem with putting a great amount of information in a chart is that it by default must leave out a great amount of information.

You chided me for giving you just one verse to chew on. And you grouse to Evan about too much to read. Is there a happy medium here?

 

[Calypsis4]

I was looking for the "sad" clickwidget but had to settle for "funny". There are just so many things wrong with this post, starting with the knee-jerk assumption of a late date for Revelation.

It will only seem 'funny' or 'sad' to you until you observe the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.... from whatever vantage point you will see it on that day ---on that yet future date determined by Almighty God. That coming will be literal, visible, and physical; so saith the scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

I was looking for the "sad" clickwidget but had to settle for "funny". There are just so many things wrong with this post, starting with the knee-jerk assumption of a late date for Revelation.

Well, at least the parts that he said are still yet to come was true!

 

[asterisktom]

That coming will be literal, visible, and physical; so saith the scriptures.

Chapter and verse? Especially the physical part.

 

[Calypsis4]

Chapter and verse? Especially the physical part.

Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

You can't get more physical than that. But that prophecy has not bee fulfilled...yet. Furthermore, your position on the timing of Revelation is in error also.

Quote: "Eusebius, in summing up the tradition of the Church on this subject, assigns John's exile to Patmos, and consequnetyly the compostion of the Apocolypse, to the latter part of the reign of Domitian (81-96 A.D.) Irenaeus (c 180) say of the book, 'For it was seen, not long ago, but almost in our generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.' " (The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Vol. IV p. 2584)

That, my friend, is evidence to the contrary of preterist thought. Preterists are very bad theologians almost on the same level as the Watchtower of Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Yeshua1]

Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

You can't get more physical than that. But that prophecy has not bee fulfilled...yet. Furthermore, your position on the timing of Revelation is in error also.

Quote: "Eusebius, in summing up the tradition of the Church on this subject, assigns John's exile to Patmos, and consequnetyly the compostion of the Apocolypse, to the latter part of the reign of Domitian (81-96 A.D.) Irenaeus (c 180) say of the book, 'For it was seen, not long ago, but almost in our generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.' " (The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Vol. IV p. 2584)

That, my friend, is evidence to the contrary of preterist thought. Preterists are very bad theologians almost on the same level as the Watchtower of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Preterists MUST have the earlier date for theology to work, we the futurists can take either date!

 

[robycop3]

Jesus said EVERY EYE shall see His return, even the eyes of those who pierced Him. Now, we know those who pierced Him are now in the "torments" area of hades. So, some of you say, how can THEY see Him?

I don't know the "nutz-n-boltz" of how jesus will accomplish this, but if MAN can show an event as it occurs all over the earth via satellite TV, how much more can JESUS do by His supernatural might?

All I know is what SCRIPTURE says, that EVERY EYE shall see Him, and that's what I believe 100%!

Now, had this event already occurred, it'd be well-known, no?

Just another reason why preterism is false.

 

[Covenanter]

Jesus said EVERY EYE shall see His return, even the eyes of those who pierced Him. Now, we know those who pierced Him are now in the "torments" area of hades. So, some of you say, how can THEY see Him?

I don't know the "nutz-n-boltz" of how jesus will accomplish this, but if MAN can show an event as it occurs all over the earth via satellite TV, how much more can JESUS do by His supernatural might?

All I know is what SCRIPTURE says, that EVERY EYE shall see Him, and that's what I believe 100%!

Now, had this event already occurred, it'd be well-known, no?

Just another reason why preterism is false.

What did Isaiah hear from the LORD Jesus when he saw him glorious on his throne?

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Isaiah 6:9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Acts 28:
25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,
‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’
28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.​

The Jews, Priests, Pharisees & people, did see & hear the Lord Jesus in his ministry, teaching & miracles. BUT thy did not really see, hear, nor understand who & what they were seeing & hearing. The blind & deaf could see & hear what the Pharisees & priests could not.

They will see & understand when all his words come true, first in the destruction suffered by this generation then when at the judgment they stand before him in his resurrection glory & hear those dreadful words:

Mat. 25:41 ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
​

 

[Yeshua1]

What did Isaiah hear from the LORD Jesus when he saw him glorious on his throne?

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Isaiah 6:9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Acts 28:
25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,
‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’
28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.​

The Jews, Priests, Pharisees & people, did see & hear the Lord Jesus in his ministry, teaching & miracles. BUT thy did not really see, hear, nor understand who & what they were seeing & hearing. The blind & deaf could see & hear what the Pharisees & priests could not.

They will see & understand when all his words come true, first in the destruction suffered by this generation then when at the judgment they stand before him in his resurrection glory & hear those dreadful words:

Mat. 25:41 ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
​

The NT passage states that when he physically appears, all eyes will see him. correct?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Also another verse is Matt 26:64 (NIV)

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[a]

Jesus was speaking to the high priest so surely he was speaking of a AD 70 fulfillment.

It is incredibly unlikely that all the chief priests who heard our Lord's words would have lived another 40 years so as to be present in AD 70.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What about the More than Conquerors book?

More than Conquerors (Baker Book House) was written by William Hendricksen back in 1945. It sets out the same 'Progressive Parallelism' scheme as does Kistemaker, and is very good in explaining the structure of Revelation. As a commentary, it is perhaps a little thin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Chapter and verse? Especially the physical part.

Acts 1:11.

 

[asterisktom]

Acts 1:11.

You are reading "physical" into "manner" because you desperately need a verse to even hint of a physical return. And this is the only one that even comes close.

But "manner" describes the way He was to return. And that is found in "a cloud took Him out of their sight".

An interesting study is how many times "cloud" is associated with various God visitation or "coming" verses.

Also interesting how futurists pass over this detail.

 

[Covenanter]

It is incredibly unlikely that all the chief priests who heard our Lord's words would have lived another 40 years so as to be present in AD 70.

Maybe - but it wasn't long before the glorious risen Lord was described to them in such clarity that they reacted violently.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him.
​

They saw & heard exactly what Stephen described - what Jesus prophesied when he was accused.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You are reading "physical" into "manner" because you desperately need a verse to even hint of a physical return. And this is the only one that even comes close.

But "manner" describes the way He was to return. And that is found in "a cloud took Him out of their sight".

An interesting study is how many times "cloud" is associated with various God visitation or "coming" verses.

Also interesting how futurists pass over this detail.

No. You are conveniently forgetting part of the text because you are desperately clinging to your false belief system.

'This Jesus [houtos ho Iesous. 'This very Jesus,' 'this same Jesus'] who was taken from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

If I tell my wife that I'm going into town and will be back later, she will naturally assume that it will be the same me that goes who will return. There is no need for me to add anything else. But supposing that she has gone mad and asks me, "Will it really be you or will it be a ghost?" I will reassure her by telling her, "it will be the very same me that goes who will return in just the same way as I left."
This is the reassurance that the angels gave the apostles. "It will be the same Jesus who will return in the same manner. He left visibly, He will return visibly; He left in a physical body, He will return in a physical body; You saw Him go; you will see Him return." It's so clear a child could understand. Only someone with a special agenda could possibly argue against it.

Acts 1:11 blows all forms of Preterism, but especially Hyper-preterism, out of the water.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

They saw & heard exactly what Stephen described - what Jesus prophesied when he was accused.

Who saw and heard? And where is it recorded? The Pharisees stopped their ears and ran at Stephen because they thought he was speaking blasphemy.
My friend, I don't want to treat you as roughly as I do Asterisktom, because I know that you believe in a Physical return of Christ in glory at the end of time, and that is what really matters. But I have to say that I find any form of Preterism a bit of a stretch.