Revelation 1:7 and Partial-Preterism

[asterisktom]

No. You are conveniently forgetting part of the text because you are desperately clinging to your false belief system.

'This Jesus [houtos ho Iesous. 'This very Jesus,' 'this same Jesus'] who was taken from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

I was not "forgetting" anything. I was trying to get you on a certain part of your verse. I don't know why I bother, though. You see what you want to see.

And why the Greek lesson? I know that. The same Jesus of Acts 1:11 is the same One who returned at the Parousia. He is the same Jesus of the Old Testament too. And the same Jesus of eternity past and eternity future.

Seeing that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" why are you even making this comment?

His sameness does not mean that because He was physical during the Incarnation that He will always be thus - or that He always was thus.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are reading "physical" into "manner" because you desperately need a verse to even hint of a physical return. And this is the only one that even comes close.

But "manner" describes the way He was to return. And that is found in "a cloud took Him out of their sight".

An interesting study is how many times "cloud" is associated with various God visitation or "coming" verses.

Also interesting how futurists pass over this detail.

The Messiah will return and step upon the Mount of Olives, did that happen AD 70? was to be a great earthquake when that event happened also!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I was not "forgetting" anything. I was trying to get you on a certain part of your verse. I don't know why I bother, though. You see what you want to see.

I don't know why you bother either.

His sameness does not mean that because He was physical during the Incarnation that He will always be thus - or that He always was thus.

His sameness means that he will be the same when He returns. If He returned as a Sprit, He would be different. Duh!
"Behold My hands and feet, that it is I myself. handle Me and see....." (Luke 24:39). See what? That it was He Himself. That He was not a sprit. When the Lord Jesus comes again it will be He Himself. That is what Acts 1:11 says.

 

[asterisktom]

I don't know why you bother either.

His sameness means that he will be the same when He returns. If He returned as a Sprit, He would be different. Duh!
"Behold My hands and feet, that it is I myself. handle Me and see....." (Luke 24:39). See what? That it was He Himself. That He was not a sprit. When the Lord Jesus comes again it will be He Himself. That is what Acts 1:11 says.

"If He returned as a Spirit He would be different." Really? Then when He came to Earth He was different also - according to your logic. The Jesus of the Old Testament was a different Jesus. Yet He said "Before Abraham was I AM".

Your twisted logic gives us two Jesus's. Jesus Pre-incarnate and Jesus Incarnate.

Think, man. Look at the verse I gave you and reevaluate what you are saying.

If my positing Jesus being now pure Spirit, having no physical body, is a different Jesus then, ergo, your Jesus would also be a different Jesus from the Old Testament (since - surely you agree, unless you are a Mormon - that Jesus had no physical body then. This puts the lie to three things (at least three):

1. The verse I quoted twice, which you ignored twice
2. The whole doctrine of the Incarnation
3. The whole doctrine of soteriology.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"If He returned as a Spirit He would be different." Really? Then when He came to Earth He was different also - according to your logic. The Jesus of the Old Testament was a different Jesus. Yet He said "Before Abraham was I AM".

Your twisted logic gives us two Jesus's. Jesus Pre-incarnate and Jesus Incarnate.

Think, man. Look at the verse I gave you and reevaluate what you are saying.

Of course He would be different, not in essence, but in form. He would not be 'That same Jesus' as I already proved by quoting Luke 24:39. If you were to die and return as a ghost, you would obviously be different-- you wouldn't have a body, would you? Sheesh!

If my positing Jesus being now pure Spirit, having no physical body, is a different Jesus then, ergo, your Jesus would also be a different Jesus from the Old Testament (since - surely you agree, unless you are a Mormon - that Jesus had no physical body then. This puts the lie to three things (at least three):

1. The verse I quoted twice, which you ignored twice
2. The whole doctrine of the Incarnation
3. The whole doctrine of soteriology.

At the Incarnation, the Lord Jesus became something He had never been-- He took on flesh. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that He removed it.

Now, let's get to business.
The Lord Jesus returned to heaven with a physical body. I suppose that you will not deny that. He will return in the same manner in which He left.
He left visibly. 'While they watched.' Ergo, He will return visibly. Now you tell me who saw Him return in AD 70. That's right, no one. He will return 'in like manner,' that is, visibly.
He left physically, unless you believe that He hung up the body He appeared with in Luke 24:36ff somewhere. He will return 'in like manner.'
His leaving was eventually obscured by clouds. He will return with clouds; that is, clouds will part to reveal Him.

It is so clear a child could understand it.

 

[asterisktom]

Of course He would be different, not in essence, but in form. He would not be 'That same Jesus' as I already proved by quoting Luke 24:39. If you were to die and return as a ghost, you would obviously be different-- you wouldn't have a body, would you? Sheesh!

At the Incarnation, the Lord Jesus became something He had never been-- He took on flesh. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that He removed it.

Now, let's get to business.
The Lord Jesus returned to heaven with a physical body. I suppose that you will not deny that. He will return in the same manner in which He left.
He left visibly. 'While they watched.' Ergo, He will return visibly. Now you tell me who saw Him return in AD 70. That's right, no one. He will return 'in like manner,' that is, visibly.
He left physically, unless you believe that He hung up the body He appeared with in Luke 24:36ff somewhere. He will return 'in like manner.'
His leaving was eventually obscured by clouds. He will return with clouds; that is, clouds will part to reveal Him.

It is so clear a child could understand it.

The usual insult. In lieu of actually addressing the points I raised. No sense quoting the verse a third time, or repeating my points. Your theology has hemmed you in so you are unwilling to see the true force of these verses.

The real Jesus is not summed up in a physical body. He always was and is God, before, during and after the Incarnation. Likewise, when we die we do not lose our sameness. We are still the persons we were. Otherwise the term eternal life would be a lie.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The real Jesus is not summed up in a physical body. He always was and is God, before, during and after the Incarnation. Likewise, when we die we do not lose our sameness. We are still the persons we were. Otherwise the term eternal life would be a lie.

Oh, come on, man! At least read what I've written. The Lord Jesus Christ is the same in essence, 'yesterday, today and forever,' but at the incarnation, He took on human flesh-- and became different in form.
And God forbid that I should be the same when the Lord Jesus returns: 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye......' (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). If we shall all be changed, we shall not be the same QED. But when the Lord Jesus Christ returns, it will be the same Jesus who left, in the same body of 'flesh and bones' in which He left. The same Jesus; get it?

 

[asterisktom]

Oh, come on, man! At least read what I've written. The Lord Jesus Christ is the same in essence, 'yesterday, today and forever,' but at the incarnation, He took on human flesh-- and became different in form.
And God forbid that I should be the same when the Lord Jesus returns: 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye......' (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). If we shall all be changed, we shall not be the same QED. But when the Lord Jesus Christ returns, it will be the same Jesus who left, in the same body of 'flesh and bones' in which He left. The same Jesus; get it?

Well, I tried. But, yes, I read everything you wrote. I don't skim over others' posts just to hurry back an answer. It is you, I believe, who did not duly consider my point.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well, I tried. But, yes, I read everything you wrote. I don't skim over others' posts just to hurry back an answer. It is you, I believe, who did not duly consider my point.

If you're referring to your post #57, I have answered it, although I am not a 'futurist' as you seem to suggest.
Acts 1:11 helps to explain the various 'coming with the clouds' verses. Just as clouds closed over the Lord Jesus to conceal Him from the apostles' sight, so at the end of time they will part to reveal Him so that 'every eye shall see Him.' The same Jesus will be returning in the same way.

 

[asterisktom]

If you're referring to your post #57, I have answered it, although I am not a 'futurist' as you seem to suggest.
Acts 1:11 helps to explain the various 'coming with the clouds' verses. Just as clouds closed over the Lord Jesus to conceal Him from the apostles' sight, so at the end of time they will part to reveal Him so that 'every eye shall see Him.' The same Jesus will be returning in the same way.

I didn't mean to pigeonhole you by the term "futurist". I realize that there are great differences between your view and, say, robycop3.

 

[robycop3]

What did Isaiah hear from the LORD Jesus when he saw him glorious on his throne?

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Isaiah 6:9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Acts 28:
25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,
‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’
28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.​

The Jews, Priests, Pharisees & people, did see & hear the Lord Jesus in his ministry, teaching & miracles. BUT thy did not really see, hear, nor understand who & what they were seeing & hearing. The blind & deaf could see & hear what the Pharisees & priests could not.

They will see & understand when all his words come true, first in the destruction suffered by this generation then when at the judgment they stand before him in his resurrection glory & hear those dreadful words:

Mat. 25:41 ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
​

WE have the benefit of hindsight, with ALL of God's word to man in front of us. Now, while jesus spoke MILLIONS of words during His life as a man, He chose which ones were to be preserved forever and available to us.

Those words include certain prophecies He made, which MUST come to pass, EXACTLY, AS HE CAUSED THEM TO BE WRITTEN. And he spoke them in plain language that cannot be mistaken for anything else.

The mark of a cultist or false worshipper is to say, "Here's what this verse REALLY means..." or "That verse doesn't mean what it SEEMS to say..."

That's what preterism does! prets ask us to believe THEIR interps of certain Scriptures, reducing them to "figurative" language to fit their agenda. Well, the whole pret thingie is MAN-MADE & FALSE, phony as a Ford Corvette!

Preterists CANNOT prove one of their pro-pret statements!

 

[robycop3]

You are reading "physical" into "manner" because you desperately need a verse to even hint of a physical return. And this is the only one that even comes close.

But "manner" describes the way He was to return. And that is found in "a cloud took Him out of their sight".

An interesting study is how many times "cloud" is associated with various God visitation or "coming" verses.

Also interesting how futurists pass over this detail.

The Revelation says the armies OF THE EARTH shall twice gather against Jesus, both at His return, and at the end of the millenium.

 

[robycop3]

No. You are conveniently forgetting part of the text because you are desperately clinging to your false belief system.

'This Jesus [houtos ho Iesous. 'This very Jesus,' 'this same Jesus'] who was taken from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

If I tell my wife that I'm going into town and will be back later, she will naturally assume that it will be the same me that goes who will return. There is no need for me to add anything else. But supposing that she has gone mad and asks me, "Will it really be you or will it be a ghost?" I will reassure her by telling her, "it will be the very same me that goes who will return in just the same way as I left."
This is the reassurance that the angels gave the apostles. "It will be the same Jesus who will return in the same manner. He left visibly, He will return visibly; He left in a physical body, He will return in a physical body; You saw Him go; you will see Him return." It's so clear a child could understand. Only someone with a special agenda could possibly argue against it.

Acts 1:11 blows all forms of Preterism, but especially Hyper-preterism, out of the water.

ALL preterism is false. Matthew 24:29 nollies partial preterism. If the great trib had already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!

And there have been meny worse events than the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem. But JESUS said the trib would be the worst-ever! I believe JESUS, not the pronouncements of men, made from imagination, conjecture, & guesswork.

 

[robycop3]

Once again....

The preterist case is futile without ***PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION*** that the events they SAY have occurred, HAVE actually occurred! And just SAYING they've occurred isn't PROOF!

Those events are completely absent from history. Given their huge size & profound nature, history would NOT have missed them!

Preterism is simply man-made hooey.