Revelation 17:8

[Scott J]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
BTW, the only way any translation into any language is the "Word of God" is if word=meaning and not word=perfectly and exclusively worded.

Scott, it looks as if I was typing when you posted. "Great minds think alike." Well, maybe not, but you get the point!

I would like to take one small exception to how you stated your case regarding translation. I do not believe that "word=meaning" is entirely accurate, although in the added context of "not word=perfectly and exclusively worded" I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

However, there are two translational philosophies currently being championed by bible translators. One is Dynamic Equivalence which tends to focus on the meaning sometimes at the expense of the grammar and syntax of the original. The other is Verbal and Formal Equivalence which focuses on the grammatical and syntactical qualities of the original and attempts, whenever possible, to bring the word into the receptor language in the same form as found in the original.

I tend to be a "Verbal and Formal whenever possible" kind of guy. I believe that philosophy better maintains the concept of verbal inspiration (which, of course, cannot be applied to translations) and gives a more accurate, but sometimes less understandable, rendering of the original in the receptor language. Granted verbal and formal equivalence translations will sometimes require more study, but that study will be, in my opinion, much more fruitful than a dynamic equivalence "here is what the writer probably meant" type of translation.

(I know, this has nothing to do with the thread, but there has been so little posting containing any intelligent thought at all on this forum lately I thought I would try to raise the bar a bit!) </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with everything you wrote here.

My point was that "word" as relating to the Bible means what was "said" rather than a requirement for a single way of saying it. We can have the inspired "Word" in English... a Bible that transmits the complete and accurate sayings of God... but we cannot have the "words" as in an exclusively perfect set of words.

I wish I could explain this better but hopefully we're in agreement.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Now you could have been nice and let me continue under my euphoric delusion.

Okay! Okay! Maybe it was you who is having a really bad day!

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by william s. correa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by EdSutton:
C4K writes:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Of course, like I said, I am totally ignorant - I thought Revelation was in Greek, not Hebrew as william told us in his post.

I don't have a clue, but...

Ya' see there, C4K, we can all learn something every day!

Seriously, I suggest that you are not the one that doesn't have a clue, on this one.

Ed </font>[/QUOTE]well was John Greek? or Erasmus? or are You? why cant you try and translate from Hebrew the book of Revelation Why cant you try and use the KJB to figure out you delema? Why are you asking Me? </font>[/QUOTE]Uh, I think Dr. Cassidy answered far better and more eloquently than I could have, what with my being a 'dumb redneck farmer' and all that.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Did not mean to overlook Scott, just did not see it at first, after I saw a 'response' (using that term rather loosely, I admit) to my own post.

But hey! Scott and Doc Cassidy- Y'all just proved that great minds do indeed run in the same gutter!

Ed

P.S. Go for it, C4K!

 

[EdSutton]

(I know, this has nothing to do with the thread, but there has been so little posting containing any intelligent thought at all on this forum lately I thought I would try to raise the bar a bit!)

If ever there needed to be an increase in the number of Graemlins allowed on a post, this is it!

Sorry, eight is all I'm allowed, but this one is worth eight laughs alone, at a minimum, in addition to the others.

Ed

 

[DesiderioDomini]

Whats funny, is I would like to see if any other KJVO is going to second William's idea of how this reading is authentic.

William, first off, you claimed that this reading IS in some manuscript. Would you name that manuscript? If not, I will go ahead and state the newsflash of the century:
YOU ARE FAKING YOUR WAY THROUGH THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You didnt even look it up. Otherwise, you would have posted the manuscript which supports this reading.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Scott J:
My point was that "word" as relating to the Bible means what was "said" rather than a requirement for a single way of saying it. We can have the inspired "Word" in English... a Bible that transmits the complete and accurate sayings of God... but we cannot have the "words" as in an exclusively perfect set of words.

I wish I could explain this better but hopefully we're in agreement.

Amen! I agree wholeheartedly! Well said.

 

[william s. correa]

Originally posted by DesiderioDomini:
Whats funny, is I would like to see if any other KJVO is going to second William's idea of how this reading is authentic.

William, first off, you claimed that Would you name that manuscript? If not, I will go ahead and state the newsflash of the century:
YOU ARE FAKING YOUR WAY THROUGH THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You didnt even look it up. Otherwise, you would have posted the manuscript which supports this reading.

All of that, including DD's absurd question, is designed to divert us from the topic at hand; namely, where is the TR’s rendering of Rev. 17:8 to be found, prior to 1516?
When I said this reading IS in some manuscript!I can prove a reading’s EXISTENCE, regardless of its whereabouts, I was making reference to corruptions such as occur in Aleph; e.g., "Christ was killed with a spear". That certainly is not a Authentic (God-given) reading, but the very fact that it appears in Aleph at all proves that the reading was in EXISTENCE as far back as the 4th century, even if in Aleph alone.If you are a Bible Scholar and read out of the KJB then your Focus aswell as
Your faith must first be placed in Erasmus’s Greek text, from whence that translation came. You can trust he english translation of a greek text only if you put you faith in the greek in what you are translating it from first!If Erasmus’s text had a typo at Rev. 17:8, then the English translation of that typo, naturally, could be nothing less than an error. Which is Not! then again I have answered your Question and Forgive me But I have been under some stress but nothing that I and the Good Lord cant handle together!

 

[DesiderioDomini]

All of that, including DD's absurd question, is designed to divert us from the topic at hand; namely, where is the TR’s rendering of Rev. 17:8 to be found, prior to 1516?
When I said this reading IS in some manuscript!I can prove a reading’s EXISTENCE, regardless of its whereabouts, I was making reference to corruptions such as occur in Aleph; e.g., "Christ was killed with a spear". That certainly is not a Authentic (God-given) reading, but the very fact that it appears in Aleph at all proves that the reading was in EXISTENCE as far back as the 4th century, even if in Aleph alone.If you are a Bible Scholar and read out of the KJB then your Focus aswell as
Your faith must first be placed in Erasmus’s Greek text, from whence that translation came. You can trust he english translation of a greek text only if you put you faith in the greek in what you are translating it from first!If Erasmus’s text had a typo at Rev. 17:8, then the English translation of that typo, naturally, could be nothing less than an error. Which is Not! then again I have answered your Question and Forgive me But I have been under some stress but nothing that I and the Good Lord cant handle together!

William, there is no record of this reading anywhere on the planet before 1516. Where did you see a reference to it? I fail to see any evidence of its existence in your previous posts. Please forgive my ignorance, and repost it.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

{quote}Your faith must first be placed in Erasmus’s Greek text[/quote]

And where in the word of God do you find an admonition to put your faith in Erasmus' Greek text? I think I must have missed that passage.

 

[TCassidy]

Where does Aleph say "Christ was killed with a spear"?

Give me chapter and verse and I will post what Aleph really says there.

 

[DesiderioDomini]

I dont have a copy of Aleph, and I have no where near the knowledge of it that Cassidy does, but I dont remember hearing that before either...

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Where does Aleph say "Christ was killed with a spear"?

Give me chapter and verse and I will post what Aleph really says there.

Mt. 27:49-50 in MS 01 might give such an impression to an ordinary reader.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
Mt. 27:49-50 in MS 01 might give such an impression to an ordinary reader.

Yes, I am familiar with the reading, but I was asking william to back up his assertion. I am of the opinion william is simply parroting what somebody else told him and has never seen a copy of Aleph, and even if he had, he couldn't read it, and has no first hand knowledge of what it says.

 

[thjplgvp]

Dr.

This has nothing to do with this thread (which has been entertaining).

I am pretty sure I was your daughters youth director at Fairhaven many years ago. Larry was my pastor and after we left we ended up in OK. where I pastored for several years and now teach at a Bible institute here OK.

As relates (somewhat) to the thread below is a link where you might get some interesting feed back from a man who is very proficient with several languages including Hebrew, Greek.

http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/

http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/doug/erasmus.htm

The last site deals with Erasmaus his Greek text and this Theology.

Have a blessed day and treat each other with kindness.

 

[DesiderioDomini]

I would be shocked if Dr. Cass wasnt familiar with Brian already.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by thjplgvp:
I am pretty sure I was your daughters youth director at Fairhaven many years ago. Larry was my pastor and after we left we ended up in OK. where I pastored for several years and now teach at a Bible institute here OK.

Okay, I'll bite, who are you?

(The only one I can think of was the guy out of Midway that came to Spring Valley in the mid 1980s. I am sorry I don't remember the name.)

April is married and living in Riverside. Her husband is career Air Force. They have two boys who are the apples of their granddaddy's eye.

As relates (somewhat) to the thread below is a link where you might get some interesting feed back from a man who is very proficient with several languages including Hebrew, Greek.

The last site deals with Erasmaus his Greek text and this Theology.

Have a blessed day and treat each other with kindness.

I am familiar with both writers and, in some areas agree with them, but disagree in others. Especially the assertion by Doug Kutilek that Erasmus was a loyal, life-long Roman Catholic. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church disagrees. A Catholic historian, Hugh Pope, under an official Roman Catholic imprimatur and nihil obstat, says:

Erasmus was a heretic from Rome. He scoffed at images, relics, pilgrimages and Good Friday observances.

Pope suggested Erasmus had serious doubts about every article of Catholic faith: the mass, confession, the primacy of the Apostolic See, clerical celibacy, fasting, transubstantiation and abstinence. (Hugh Pope, English Versions of the Bible. St. Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1952, p. 105 and Schaff, p. 413.)

The quotes Doug uses came from the early years of Erasmus's life, not the latter years when he spent all of his time with his Protestant friends, and was buried in the Prostestant cemetary in Basel in 1536 after the cemetary became Protestant.

 

[william s. correa]

When He was on earth Jesus constantly affirmed that His message was eternal, that the very words which He spoke had been given to Him by God the Father before the creation of the world.

Please see these links for source of this material

http://www.fbinstitute.com/Hill/Chapter4.htm

http://p076.ezboard.com/fav1611godswordfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=1429.topic&start=121&stop=140


I am more likely to believe the discoverer of the manuscript over TCassidy

[ May 13, 2006, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[TCassidy]

LOL! ROFLOL! ZOOM! Right over william's head! I thought so! He doesn't even know what we are talking about! LOL! Some "expert!"

The issue is not kai palin parestai verses kai parestai! The issue is kai parestai verses kaiper estin.

Duh! So, William has proven he does not have a clue what he is talking about, just as I thought! He is trying to do a Google search then cutting and pasting other peoples works as his own, failing to realize he not only doesn’t understand the answer, he doesn’t even understand the question!

 

[DesiderioDomini]

Wow William, I just finished my first year of Greek, and I knew the difference.

Do you really know what you are talking about, or are you arguing strictly from tradition?