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Revelation is not about the FUTURE

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Basically its the view that the second coming and RTevelation evets fully fulfilled in AD 70 when Rome wiped out the Holy City and destroyed temple so really nothing left to happen anymore
Then, no. I don’t think that I believe that. Revelation speaks about God’s triumph and Satan’s ultimate defeat and a time AFTER “that day” when God and man will be forever together in His eternal now … that didn’t happen in AD 70. On the other hand, WHEN future prophetic events will happen is NOT what Revelation is about.

Just as the point of Genesis 1 is not to focus on “6 days of exactly 24 hours each” (that is not the important part of Genesis 1).
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
many things address there in Revelation yet to have happened yet though

Just none on Earth, certainly, after Jesus' Return in Judgment. That is The End of The World.

THIS LINK has: the Sixty-Six NEW TESTAMENT Passages, in which THE TRIUNE GODHEAD REVEALS

and TEACHES THAT THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST is THE END of TIME,

as they list and show ALL of THE STRAIGHTFORWARD, NEW TESTAMENT VERSES

from ‘The Didactic New Testament’, i.e., The Gospels, The Book of Acts, and The Epistles (w/o Revelation)


THAT TEACH THE SECOND COMING of JESUS ( PAROUSIA ) is THE END of THE EARTH AS WE KNOW IT,

for Example, Upon Jesus' Return, He Said that He would SEPARATE THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS!!, in Matthew 25:31-34, 41.

The Sheep and the Goats.

31; "When the Son of man shall Come in His Glory, and all the Holy Angels with Him,
then shall He Sit upon the Throne of His Glory:


32; "And before Him shall be Gathered all Nations:
and He shall Separate them one from another, as a Shepherd Divideth his sheep from the goats:

33; "And He shall Set the sheep on His Right Hand, but the goats on the Left.

34; "Then shall the King say unto them on His Right Hand,
Come, ye Blessed of My Father, Inherit the Kingdom Prepared for you from the Foundation of the World:"

41; "Then shall He Say also unto them on the Left Hand,
Depart from Me, ye Cursed, into Everlasting Fire, Prepared for the Devil and his angels:"


AND THAT'S IT!!!! THE END OF TIME!!!

THE SECOND COMING of JESUS ( PAROUSIA ) is THE END of TIME

AND WILL BE: God’s Consummation of All Things and The End of The World.


Revelation 10:7
  • "But in the Days of the Voice of the Seventh Angel, when He shall begin to Sound,
  • the Mystery of God should be Finished, as He hath Declared to His servants the Prophets."
"When the Seventh Angel Sounds the Trumpet (Rev. 11:15) it's the End of the World and the Mystery of God is Finished.

"This again obviously is at the Last Trumpet. The exact same Last Trumpet of God that 1st Corinthians 15:51 says is the Rapture of believers.

"For then shall we see Him Face to Face and Know Him even as we are Known (1st Cor. 13:12).
i.e., the Mystery of God shall be Finished, just as it states. Rapture and the end of the world are synonymous events.

"This is the only way scripture agrees consistently down the line.

"More than that, God likewise says the End of the World is at the last day and the rapture of the churches is at the Last Day.

"Again, Scriptural Redundancy, which is in Total Agreement with this Truth throughout the Word."

John 6:40;
  • "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the son
  • and believeth on Him may have Everlasting Life: and I Will Raise Him Up at the Last Day!"
John 6:54;
  • "Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath Eternal Life; and I Will Raise Him Up at the Last Day!"
John 7:37;
  • "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My Words hath One that Judgeth him;
  • the Word that I have Spoken, the Same shall Judge him in The Last Day!"
"Again, what's to debate? God clearly says that the Judgment is at the Last Day, and the Raising Up of believers is at the Last Day.

"Just as with the Last Revelation of the Last Trumpet. These events of are all on the Same Last Day,
and there is no mention of another Return of Christ or a Pretribulation Rapture.

"Again, there is total consistency throughout Scripture."

"By contrast, did God say after the tribulation I'll reign "on the earth" 1000 years,
or did man say that and then privately interpret other scriptures to "mean" this, though they don't say it?


"Revelation 20 speaks of souls of the dead which reign in Heaven, not on Earth.

"Did God say before the tribulation I'll take My Church out of the world, or did man say that?

"Did God say My Son has no Kingdom yet and there must be a Future 1000 year Reign on earth,
or did man say that in direct contradiction of God?

Man said these things!
God said nothing about Coming before the Tribulation. That is not in Scripture.

"What is in Scripture is that Christ "already" has a Kingdom, and is already Reigning, and has already Brought Peace on Earth,
and that in the World the Church will have Tribulation as normaltive, and near the End, Great (greater or increased) Tribulation,
and that immediately after this Period of Great Tribulation, the Trumpet will Sound and the Angels will Gather the Chosen,
and all the tribes of the Earth will mourn!" This is what God says!


"And with good reason the people of the Earth will mourn,
because it's not only the Gathering of the Chosen in the Air (Rapture) but it's also Judgment Day.

"Therefore do they mourn."*

THIS LINK has: the Sixty-Six NEW TESTAMENT Passages, in which THE TRIUNE GODHEAD REVEALS

and TEACHES THAT THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST is THE END of TIME.

PREACH TO LOST SOULS WHILE WE CAN, BROTHERS, BEFORE IT IS FOREVER TOO LATE.


*adapted from: An Exposition of Revelation Chapter Twenty
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” … now what did John promise would happen to this multitude of God’s People … and remember that he made this promise to people that were LIVING (and dying) through the events of the Horsemen. Do you think that might have offered some encouragement to them in the middle of their hard times? Do you think it might still offer some encouragement to people living through their own personal hard times TODAY?
John hears the number 144,000, but when he looks (Revelation 7:9ff), he sees 'a great multitude which no one could number, out of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.....' Read on to the end of the chapter to get your encouragement.
Revelation is about the future, but also the past and present. It is seven visions of the time between the ascension of our Lord until the time of His return. It therefore spoke encouragement to the people of John's day, speaks to our day and will continue to speak until the Lord Jesus returns.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
John hears the number 144,000, but when he looks (Revelation 7:9ff), he sees 'a great multitude which no one could number, out of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.....' Read on to the end of the chapter to get your encouragement.
Revelation is about the future, but also the past and present. It is seven visions of the time between the ascension of our Lord until the time of His return. It therefore spoke encouragement to the people of John's day, speaks to our day and will continue to speak until the Lord Jesus returns.
The 144000 though are saved out Jews, remnant of spiritual israel within nation israel of the end times, while the great crowd wetre all saved out during Great tribulation of end time days
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member

THIS LINK has: the Sixty-Six NEW TESTAMENT Passages, in which THE TRIUNE GODHEAD REVEALS

and TEACHES THAT THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST is THE END of TIME,

as they list and show ALL of THE STRAIGHTFORWARD, NEW TESTAMENT VERSES

from ‘The Didactic New Testament’, i.e., The Gospels, The Book of Acts, and The Epistles (w/o Revelation)


THAT TEACH THE SECOND COMING of JESUS ( PAROUSIA ) is THE END of THE EARTH AS WE KNOW IT,

for Example, Upon Jesus' Return, He Said that He would SEPARATE THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS!!, in Matthew 25:31-34, 41.

The Sheep and the Goats.

31; "When the Son of man shall Come in His Glory, and all the Holy Angels with Him,
then shall He Sit upon the Throne of His Glory:


32; "And before Him shall be Gathered all Nations:
and He shall Separate them one from another, as a Shepherd Divideth his sheep from the goats:

33; "And He shall Set the sheep on His Right Hand, but the goats on the Left.

34; "Then shall the King say unto them on His Right Hand,
Come, ye Blessed of My Father, Inherit the Kingdom Prepared for you from the Foundation of the World:"

41; "Then shall He Say also unto them on the Left Hand,
Depart from Me, ye Cursed, into Everlasting Fire, Prepared for the Devil and his angels:"


AND THAT'S IT!!!! THE END OF TIME!!!

THE SECOND COMING of JESUS ( PAROUSIA ) is THE END of TIME

AND WILL BE: God’s Consummation of All Things and The End of The World.


Revelation 10:7
  • "But in the Days of the Voice of the Seventh Angel, when He shall begin to Sound,
  • the Mystery of God should be Finished, as He hath Declared to His servants the Prophets."
"When the Seventh Angel Sounds the Trumpet (Rev. 11:15) it's the End of the World and the Mystery of God is Finished.

"This again obviously is at the Last Trumpet. The exact same Last Trumpet of God that 1st Corinthians 15:51 says is the Rapture of believers.

"For then shall we see Him Face to Face and Know Him even as we are Known (1st Cor. 13:12).
i.e., the Mystery of God shall be Finished, just as it states. Rapture and the end of the world are synonymous events.

"This is the only way scripture agrees consistently down the line.

"More than that, God likewise says the End of the World is at the last day and the rapture of the churches is at the Last Day.

"Again, Scriptural Redundancy, which is in Total Agreement with this Truth throughout the Word."

John 6:40;
  • "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the son
  • and believeth on Him may have Everlasting Life: and I Will Raise Him Up at the Last Day!"
John 6:54;
  • "Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath Eternal Life; and I Will Raise Him Up at the Last Day!"
John 7:37;
  • "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My Words hath One that Judgeth him;
  • the Word that I have Spoken, the Same shall Judge him in The Last Day!"
"Again, what's to debate? God clearly says that the Judgment is at the Last Day, and the Raising Up of believers is at the Last Day.

"Just as with the Last Revelation of the Last Trumpet. These events of are all on the Same Last Day,
and there is no mention of another Return of Christ or a Pretribulation Rapture.

"Again, there is total consistency throughout Scripture."

"By contrast, did God say after the tribulation I'll reign "on the earth" 1000 years,
or did man say that and then privately interpret other scriptures to "mean" this, though they don't say it?


"Revelation 20 speaks of souls of the dead which reign in Heaven, not on Earth.

"Did God say before the tribulation I'll take My Church out of the world, or did man say that?

"Did God say My Son has no Kingdom yet and there must be a Future 1000 year Reign on earth,
or did man say that in direct contradiction of God?


Man said these things!
God said nothing about Coming before the Tribulation. That is not in Scripture.

"What is in Scripture is that Christ "already" has a Kingdom, and is already Reigning, and has already Brought Peace on Earth,
and that in the World the Church will have Tribulation as normaltive, and near the End, Great (greater or increased) Tribulation,
and that immediately after this Period of Great Tribulation, the Trumpet will Sound and the Angels will Gather the Chosen,
and all the tribes of the Earth will mourn!" This is what God says!


"And with good reason the people of the Earth will mourn,
because it's not only the Gathering of the Chosen in the Air (Rapture) but it's also Judgment Day.

"Therefore do they mourn."*

THIS LINK has: the Sixty-Six NEW TESTAMENT Passages, in which THE TRIUNE GODHEAD REVEALS

and TEACHES THAT THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST is THE END of TIME.

PREACH TO LOST SOULS WHILE WE CAN, BROTHERS, BEFORE IT IS FOREVER TOO LATE.​


*adapted from: An Exposition of Revelation Chapter Twenty
The Kingdom Age where Jesus established his kingdom upon this earth as is in heaven for that 1000 years will end with the Eternal State All wrapped up for eternity going foward
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
The Kingdom Age where Jesus established his kingdom upon this earth as is in heaven for that 1000 years will end with the Eternal State All wrapped up for eternity going foward
I think you missed it.

I'm pretty sure about that.

Luke 3:8-9;
  • "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of Repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father:
  • for I say unto you, That God is Able of these stones to Raise Up children unto Abraham.
  • And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees:
  • every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is Hewn Down, and Cast into the Fire."
"The Political Nation Israel rejected Christ's Truth concerning this, and it seems that much of the Church today is following in that same error.

"They don't understand the concept of the external Church contrasted with the indivisible Church.

"They neglect the concept of "types" and the Fulfillment thereof.

"Considering these things in light of Scripture illustrates that the Millennial Reign, and the Redemption of Israel, both started at the cross.

"The Promises to Israel are not now null and void as some might suppose. Nor has the Church replaced Israel as some boastfully claim.

"Indeed Israel has not been abandoned. The Promises to Israel "stand" because they were not made to a literal Earthly Nation,
but to a Chosen people who bring forth the fruits worthy of Repentance.

"Unfortunately, some people have no concept of the way Old Testament Prophecy is Fulfilled in Christ.

"Those Promises to Israel are Kept, and are Fulfilled in Christ, and in whosoever God Chooses to Call Israel, by reason of their being in Christ.

"He is the True Israel of God."

Hosea 11:1;
  • "When Israel was a child, then I Loved Him, and Called My Son Out of Egypt."
Matthew 2:15;
  • "And was there until the death of Herod:
  • that it might be Fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet,
  • saying, Out of Egypt have I Called My Son."
God is plainly talking about His Son Christ, and Speaking of Him as the Fulfillment of the Prophecy concerning Israel.

"So, whosoever man defines as Israel is insignificant. For Christ is the "True" Israel and the essence of its being.

"Therefore, those in Him are Israel, because they get their Fundamental New Nature, Virtue, and Qualities from Him.

"Which of course is why we are called Christ-ians, and why we can be Grafted into the Covenant Olive tree (Romans 11) Israel.

"Because we are the body of Christ.

"If we look carefully at the Promises made to Israel, and their Fulfillment,
we will get a better understanding of the Mystery of the Old Testament, in the "Light" of the New Testament.

The Promise made to Israel.

Hosea 1:10

  • "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered.
  • And it Shall Come to Pass in the Place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people,
  • there it shall be said unto them, Ye are sons of the Living God."
The Promised Fulfillment in Israel, The Lord's Churches, in Romans 9:22-26.
  • "What if God, Willing to Shew His Wrath and to Make His Power Known,
  • Endured with Much Long Suffering the vessels of Wrath Fitted to Destruction,
  • and that He Might Make Known the Riches of His Glory on the vessels of Mercy, which He had afore Prepared unto Glory,
  • even us whom He hath Called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • As He saith also in Hosea: I Will Call them My people, which were not My people, And her Beloved, which was not Beloved."
  • And it Shall Come to Pass in the Place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people;
  • There shall they be Called Children of the Living God."
"There is the undeniable truth of fulfillment in The Lord's Churches of what God had promised to Israel in the book of hosea.

"He would make Israel as the sand of the sea by bringing into her the Gentiles who were not His people, to now be His people.

"The mystery (Romans 11:25; Colossians 1:26-27) of the Old is Revealed in the New Testament.

"He has made both Jew and Gentile one body in Christ, and that is the fulfillment of the promise that the Children of Israel
would become as the sand of the sea because He would make them His people who were formerly not His people.

"To deny this is to deny the very scriptures which say it.

"To the noble, these Truths are made self-evident by the Authority of Scripture, through the Working of the Spirit within them."
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I think you missed it.

I'm pretty sure about that.

Luke 3:8-9;
  • "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of Repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father:
  • for I say unto you, That God is Able of these stones to Raise Up children unto Abraham.
  • And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees:
  • every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is Hewn Down, and Cast into the Fire."
"The Political Nation Israel rejected Christ's Truth concerning this, and it seems that much of the Church today is following in that same error.

"They don't understand the concept of the external Church contrasted with the indivisible Church.

"They neglect the concept of "types" and the Fulfillment thereof.

"Considering these things in light of Scripture illustrates that the Millennial Reign, and the Redemption of Israel, both started at the cross.

"The Promises to Israel are not now null and void as some might suppose. Nor has the Church replaced Israel as some boastfully claim.

"Indeed Israel has not been abandoned. The Promises to Israel "stand" because they were not made to a literal Earthly Nation,
but to a Chosen people who bring forth the fruits worthy of Repentance.

"Unfortunately, some people have no concept of the way Old Testament Prophecy is Fulfilled in Christ.

"Those Promises to Israel are Kept, and are Fulfilled in Christ, and in whosoever God Chooses to Call Israel, by reason of their being in Christ.

"He is the True Israel of God."

Hosea 11:1;
  • "When Israel was a child, then I Loved Him, and Called My Son Out of Egypt."
Matthew 2:15;
  • "And was there until the death of Herod:
  • that it might be Fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet,
  • saying, Out of Egypt have I Called My Son."
God is plainly talking about His Son Christ, and Speaking of Him as the Fulfillment of the Prophecy concerning Israel.

"So, whosoever man defines as Israel is insignificant. For Christ is the "True" Israel and the essence of its being.

"Therefore, those in Him are Israel, because they get their Fundamental New Nature, Virtue, and Qualities from Him.

"Which of course is why we are called Christ-ians, and why we can be Grafted into the Covenant Olive tree (Romans 11) Israel.

"Because we are the body of Christ.

"If we look carefully at the Promises made to Israel, and their Fulfillment,
we will get a better understanding of the Mystery of the Old Testament, in the "Light" of the New Testament.

The Promise made to Israel.

Hosea 1:10

  • "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered.
  • And it Shall Come to Pass in the Place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people,
  • there it shall be said unto them, Ye are sons of the Living God."
The Promised Fulfillment in Israel, The Lord's Churches, in Romans 9:22-26.
  • "What if God, Willing to Shew His Wrath and to Make His Power Known,
  • Endured with Much Long Suffering the vessels of Wrath Fitted to Destruction,
  • and that He Might Make Known the Riches of His Glory on the vessels of Mercy, which He had afore Prepared unto Glory,
  • even us whom He hath Called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • As He saith also in Hosea: I Will Call them My people, which were not My people, And her Beloved, which was not Beloved."
  • And it Shall Come to Pass in the Place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people;
  • There shall they be Called Children of the Living God."
"There is the undeniable truth of fulfillment in The Lord's Churches of what God had promised to Israel in the book of hosea.

"He would make Israel as the sand of the sea by bringing into her the Gentiles who were not His people, to now be His people.

"The mystery (Romans 11:25; Colossians 1:26-27) of the Old is Revealed in the New Testament.

"He has made both Jew and Gentile one body in Christ, and that is the fulfillment of the promise that the Children of Israel
would become as the sand of the sea because He would make them His people who were formerly not His people.

"To deny this is to deny the very scriptures which say it.

"To the noble, these Truths are made self-evident by the Authority of Scripture, through the Working of the Spirit within them."
many see to think God forever stopped dealing with national Israel, but scripturs teach otherwise, as right now dealing with them to call out saved Jews as faithful remnant , but will still swing back to dealing with that nation in last days
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
many see to think God forever stopped dealing with national Israel, but scripturs teach otherwise, as right now dealing with them to call out saved Jews as faithful remnant , but will still swing back to dealing with that nation in last days
"There is no uncertainty therefore regarding what Paul preached as the hope of Israel.

"Evidently then, the Jews of old and the dispensationalists of today were (and are) in error in giving to the Old Testament prophecies a literalistic interpretation.

"For the language of the prophets is figurative and symbolical. In like manner when Jesus showed Nicodemus the true character of the Kingdom of God, asserting with the strongest emphasis that a man must needs be born again in order to enter it, He made use of terms which obviously were figures of speech taken from the familiar elements of nature, water and wind (i.e. breath, or spirit). His language, however, was utterly incomprehensible to that learned Rabbi, "the teacher of Israel," who accordingly manifested his astonishment thereat by exclaiming, "How can these things be?" (John 3:1-9); whereas, being the teacher of Israel, he should have known those things (v. 10).

"It must be remembered that, to him, and according to the settled doctrine of all Jewish teachers of that day, the highest possible thing in the way of parentage was to be born "of the stock of Israel" (Phil. 3: 3); and we must also remember that (to him) the essential condition for admission into the Kingdom of God was to be a natural descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Hence he was quite unable to conceive how the prophecies and promises of God concerning that Kingdom could be fulfilled otherwise than by the national restoration of the Jews, and their exaltation to the place of dominance over the whole Gentile world.

"So likewise today there are teachers who insist upon a naturalistic, or materialistic (they call it a literal) interpretation of the prophecies concerning the Kingdom, Israel, Jerusalem, etc. They too "cannot see" how this prophecy, or that, can be fulfilled except "literally"-- that is, by regathering of the scattered Jewish people, their re-constitution into a nation as of old, and their re-investiture with the proprietorship of the land of Canaan. Thus they make their incapacity to "see" the spiritual realities that correspond to the material types and figures used by the prophets, a rule for the interpretation of the prophecies.

"It is not necessary, of course, to an understanding of the general voice of prophecy and of the general purport of the prophetic message, that one should know the meaning of every symbol and figure used by the prophets, All that is needed is that due heed be given to certain plain statements of the New Testament, and to the way the prophecies of the Old Testament are interpreted and applied therein.

"For example, chapters 8-10 of Hebrews were evidently written in order to make known--and primarily to that saved "remnant" of Israel which had found deliverance through accepting Jesus as their Messiah-- that everything pertaining to the old covenant (people, land, city, sanctuary, priesthood, sacrifices, etc.) was but "a shadow of good things to come" (Heb. 10:1).

"This is quite enough to show that those who insist upon what they call
a 'literal" fulfilment of the promised blessings that were to come to "Israel" through Christ, have completely missed the mark.


"As says Joseph Butler (Butler's Analogy) commenting on Hebrews 8:4,5:

"The priesthood of Christ, and the tabernacle shown to Moses in the mount, were the originals. Of the former of these, the Levitical priesthood was but a type; and of the latter, the tabernacle made by Moses was a copy."

"And so with everything else: The new covenant has the eternal realities ("the originals") whereof the old covenant had but the temporary types or shadows. This being true (and the Epistle to the Hebrews makes the truth of it quite plain); and it being true also that Christ, by His death and resurrection has abolished that entire system of shadows, and has brought to light the spiritual and eternal realities typified thereby (Heb. 10:9), it follows that God's purposes are connected thenceforth with a regenerated people -- "born of water and the Spirit"--"a holy nation," who belong to a "heavenly country"; and with "a spiritual house," and a "Jerusalem which is above" (1 Pet. 1:3; 2: 5, 6, 9; Heb. 12: 22; Gal. 4:26, &c.). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood this (Heb. 11:9).

"THE NATURAL AND THE SPIRITUAL."

"But it may be asked: Are there not prophecies which were to be fulfilled here on earth, and in connection with the earthly people of Israel, their land and their city? Such indeed there are; and hence arises the question: How can it be known with certainty whether a given prophecy relates to the heavenly "Israel" or the earthly? and whether its fulfilment is to be found in the spiritual realm or in the natural?

"Most certainly there is need in many cases for the exercise of discernment, and for the seeking of light from the context and from other parts of Scripture. But the difficulty in such cases is not nearly so great as might be supposed. For, in the light of certain passages in the New Testament, it is clearly to be seen that the prophecies as a whole fall into two great divisions, whereof the first have their fulfilment in the sphere of the natural and the other in the sphere of the spiritual.

"Thus it clearly appears from 1 Peter I:9-I2, that the prophecies in general had to do with these two distinct subjects, namely (1) "the sufferings of Christ," and (2) "the glories (plural) that should follow." And the passage also shows that the prophecies concerning "the sufferings" were to be first fulfilled, and then those concerning "the glories"; this being in agreement with the very explicit statement of 1 Corinthians 15:46, "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
"There is no uncertainty therefore regarding what Paul preached as the hope of Israel.

"Evidently then, the Jews of old and the dispensationalists of today were (and are) in error in giving to the Old Testament prophecies a literalistic interpretation.

"For the language of the prophets is figurative and symbolical. In like manner when Jesus showed Nicodemus the true character of the Kingdom of God, asserting with the strongest emphasis that a man must needs be born again in order to enter it, He made use of terms which obviously were figures of speech taken from the familiar elements of nature, water and wind (i.e. breath, or spirit). His language, however, was utterly incomprehensible to that learned Rabbi, "the teacher of Israel," who accordingly manifested his astonishment thereat by exclaiming, "How can these things be?" (John 3:1-9); whereas, being the teacher of Israel, he should have known those things (v. 10).

"It must be remembered that, to him, and according to the settled doctrine of all Jewish teachers of that day, the highest possible thing in the way of parentage was to be born "of the stock of Israel" (Phil. 3: 3); and we must also remember that (to him) the essential condition for admission into the Kingdom of God was to be a natural descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Hence he was quite unable to conceive how the prophecies and promises of God concerning that Kingdom could be fulfilled otherwise than by the national restoration of the Jews, and their exaltation to the place of dominance over the whole Gentile world.

"So likewise today there are teachers who insist upon a naturalistic, or materialistic (they call it a literal) interpretation of the prophecies concerning the Kingdom, Israel, Jerusalem, etc. They too "cannot see" how this prophecy, or that, can be fulfilled except "literally"-- that is, by regathering of the scattered Jewish people, their re-constitution into a nation as of old, and their re-investiture with the proprietorship of the land of Canaan. Thus they make their incapacity to "see" the spiritual realities that correspond to the material types and figures used by the prophets, a rule for the interpretation of the prophecies.

"It is not necessary, of course, to an understanding of the general voice of prophecy and of the general purport of the prophetic message, that one should know the meaning of every symbol and figure used by the prophets, All that is needed is that due heed be given to certain plain statements of the New Testament, and to the way the prophecies of the Old Testament are interpreted and applied therein.

"For example, chapters 8-10 of Hebrews were evidently written in order to make known--and primarily to that saved "remnant" of Israel which had found deliverance through accepting Jesus as their Messiah-- that everything pertaining to the old covenant (people, land, city, sanctuary, priesthood, sacrifices, etc.) was but "a shadow of good things to come" (Heb. 10:1).

"This is quite enough to show that those who insist upon what they call
a 'literal" fulfilment of the promised blessings that were to come to "Israel" through Christ, have completely missed the mark.


"As says Joseph Butler (Butler's Analogy) commenting on Hebrews 8:4,5:

"The priesthood of Christ, and the tabernacle shown to Moses in the mount, were the originals. Of the former of these, the Levitical priesthood was but a type; and of the latter, the tabernacle made by Moses was a copy."

"And so with everything else: The new covenant has the eternal realities ("the originals") whereof the old covenant had but the temporary types or shadows. This being true (and the Epistle to the Hebrews makes the truth of it quite plain); and it being true also that Christ, by His death and resurrection has abolished that entire system of shadows, and has brought to light the spiritual and eternal realities typified thereby (Heb. 10:9), it follows that God's purposes are connected thenceforth with a regenerated people -- "born of water and the Spirit"--"a holy nation," who belong to a "heavenly country"; and with "a spiritual house," and a "Jerusalem which is above" (1 Pet. 1:3; 2: 5, 6, 9; Heb. 12: 22; Gal. 4:26, &c.). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood this (Heb. 11:9).

"THE NATURAL AND THE SPIRITUAL."

"But it may be asked: Are there not prophecies which were to be fulfilled here on earth, and in connection with the earthly people of Israel, their land and their city? Such indeed there are; and hence arises the question: How can it be known with certainty whether a given prophecy relates to the heavenly "Israel" or the earthly? and whether its fulfilment is to be found in the spiritual realm or in the natural?

"Most certainly there is need in many cases for the exercise of discernment, and for the seeking of light from the context and from other parts of Scripture. But the difficulty in such cases is not nearly so great as might be supposed. For, in the light of certain passages in the New Testament, it is clearly to be seen that the prophecies as a whole fall into two great divisions, whereof the first have their fulfilment in the sphere of the natural and the other in the sphere of the spiritual.

"Thus it clearly appears from 1 Peter I:9-I2, that the prophecies in general had to do with these two distinct subjects, namely (1) "the sufferings of Christ," and (2) "the glories (plural) that should follow." And the passage also shows that the prophecies concerning "the sufferings" were to be first fulfilled, and then those concerning "the glories"; this being in agreement with the very explicit statement of 1 Corinthians 15:46, "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

We who hold to reform Baptist theology as espoused by such as Spurgeon and hold to CT would still still some future hope for national Israel in last days around second coming events
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
The Kingdom Age where Jesus established his kingdom upon this earth as is in heaven for that 1000 years
The 66 verses about Jesus Return, from ‘The Didactic New Testament’, i.e., The Gospels, The Book of Acts, and The Epistles (w/o Revelation) DO NOT mention anything about, "The Kingdom Age", "on this earth", "for that 1000 years",
And these are 7 more verses from the Book of Revelation about Jesus' Return; , DO NOT mention anything about, "The Kingdom Age", "on this earth", "for that 1000 years",

Regardless of anything else, those are 73 verses about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, DO NOT mention anything about, "The Kingdom Age", "on this earth", "for that 1000 years",

And yet
"THIS 1000 YEARS OF JESUS REIGNING ON EARTH" is something you talk about and state in almost EVERY POST you make, WITHOUT GOD BACKING YOU UP.

I'm beginning to need to search for concerns regarding the possibility of a fraud attempting to be perpetrated, or Quackery, or Heresy.

Do you ever feel that way? or that you may be suffering from some kind of disease?

I have an idea! What if you were to "Put Up or Shut Up'?

Am I to be despised for making you uncomfortable, for being rude, or abusive, or for being a controlling bully, regarding these Hate Crimes Against God by you that are discriminating against my religion indiscriminately? IN DENIAL OF HIS WORD?

Otherwise, I'm saying,
YOU ARE OFF IN THE HEAD by, at least, "A THOUSAND YEARS".
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
The 66 verses about Jesus Return, from ‘The Didactic New Testament’, i.e., The Gospels, The Book of Acts, and The Epistles (w/o Revelation) DO NOT mention anything about, "The Kingdom Age", "on this earth", "for that 1000 years",
And these are 7 more verses from the Book of Revelation about Jesus' Return; , DO NOT mention anything about, "The Kingdom Age", "on this earth", "for that 1000 years",

Regardless of anything else, those are 73 verses about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, DO NOT mention anything about, "The Kingdom Age", "on this earth", "for that 1000 years",

And yet
"THIS 1000 YEARS OF JESUS REIGNING ON EARTH" is something you talk about and state in almost EVERY POST you make, WITHOUT GOD BACKING YOU UP.

I'm beginning to need to search for concerns regarding the possibility of a fraud attempting to be perpetrated, or Quackery, or Heresy.

Do you ever feel that way? or that you may be suffering from some kind of disease?

I have an idea! What if you were to "Put Up or Shut Up'?

Am I to be despised for making you uncomfortable, for being rude, or abusive, or for being a controlling bully, regarding these Hate Crimes Against God by you that are discriminating against my religion indiscriminately? IN DENIAL OF HIS WORD?

Otherwise, I'm saying,
YOU ARE OFF IN THE HEAD by, at least, "A THOUSAND YEARS".
All of the OT prophets prophesied a coming messianic era when Messiah rules on earth, as never happened as of yet
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
All of the OT prophets prophesied a coming messianic era when Messiah rules on earth
Nice try to utterly avoid those 73 New Testament Scriptures, as if The Old Testament is supposed to have something taught in it
that just ENTIRELY ESCAPED THE NOTICE OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, FOR ONE, WHO IS ALL KNOWING = BY THE WAY,

ALONG WITH EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE OTHER AUTHORS GOD USED TO PEN ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BOOKS
THAT YOU ARE SAYING SUFFERED FROM SOME KIND OF ALL ENCOMPANCING UTTER, COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE, OBLITEROUSNESS.

Why do you know what Jesus didn't?


as never happened as of yet

Why do you know what Jesus AND ALL OF THE OTHER WRITERS IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE didn't?

"The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him:
neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually Discerned"
, (I Corinthians 2: 14).

SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED?

DON'T BE AFRAID OF SPIRITUAL EXPRESSIONS IN INTERPRETING THE BIBLE.

THE AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE IS SPIRIT.

"GOD IS SPIRIT".

"Since the Bible must First be Interpreted the question is, how must it be Interpreted?

Physically, or Spiritually, or both ways?
and how do we determine which method or methods should be used?

"These are questions that must be answered in a way that will be compatible to God's Word.

"In the above statement you will notice that I used the terms 'Physical' vs Spiritual rather than Literal vs Spiritual.

"To say Literal vs Spiritual is to insinuate that those things that are Spiritual are not Literal.

"To do this would be saying that 'God is not Literal' because God is Spirit.

Therefore, I prefer to use the terms 'Physical' and Spiritual.

With these terms in mind we shall consider the following Rules of Interpretation:

"1. God's Word (the Bible) should be Interpreted 'Physically' wherever and whenever possible,
as long as it doesn't violate other Rules of Interpretation.
"Prophetic and Poetic writings will often have to be Interpreted Figuratively...

"2. The Second Rule of Interpretation is, Passages of Scriptures in Non-Symbolic and Apocalyptic writings
should take pre-eminence in forming doctrine rather than those passages found in symbolic and apocalyptic writings.

"All Scriptures are Inspired, but those that are clear and plain should influence those that are Symbolic rather than vise versa...

"3. The Third Rule is, Old Testament Prophecy should be Interpreted in the manner that we find in the New Testament.

"Without the New Testament Interpretation most all Old Testament Prophecies would continue to be a Mystery.

"For example, if Matthew had not Interpreted Isaiah 40:3 for us we would still be looking for someone
to make a straight highway in the desert for the Lord.

"Matthew also states in Matthew 21: 1-11, that Zechariah 9: 9 was Fulfilled when Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem.
Since Jesus was not a Physical King as the Jews expected, they rejected Him as King.

"Jesus Himself stated in Matthew 17: 11-13 that John the Baptist was Elijah.
If Malachi 4: 5 had not been Interpreted for us by the Lord, we would still be looking for Elijah to come.

"Peter claims that Joel's Prophecy, Joel 2: 28-32, was Fulfilled at Pentecost, Acts 2: 16-21.
There are some that try to claim that only part of this Prophecy was Fulfilled at Pentecost and the rest will be Fulfilled later.
If this were true we would have to admit that they were given more insight to the Scriptures than Peter,
because he did not say that this is part of Joel's Prophecy and the rest will follow,
but Peter say,
"this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."

"Peter continues with the Old Testament Prediction
that Jesus as King would someday sit on David's throne,

Psalms 16: 8-11; 2 Samuel 7: 12,
and declared it Fulfilled by the Resurrection of Christ, Acts 2: 30-31.

"Paul claims that the Promise made to Abraham and his seed, in that through him all Nations would be Blessed, Genesis 18:18,
has been Fulfilled in the Saving of Gentiles, Galatians 3: 8.

"The Promise was not to be Fulfilled through Abraham's fleshly descendants, but his Spiritual Seed.

"Also in this same chapter of Galatians Paul explained that the Promises that God made to Abraham
was not to his Physical Descendants
, as of many, but One which was Christ.

"This means that the Land and Blessings that God Promised to Abraham's fleshly descendants

was to be through Faith in the Coming Messiah.

"This is why Joshua said in Joshua 23: 15;
"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as All Good Things are Come upon you,
which the LORD your God Promised you; so shall the LORD Bring upon you All Evil Things,
until He have Destroyed you from off this Good Land which the LORD your God hath Given you.


16; "When ye have transgressed the Covenant of the LORD your God, which He Commanded you,
and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them;
then shall the Anger of the LORD be Kindled Against you,
and ye shall Perish Quickly from off the Good Land which He hath Given unto you."


The Jews cannot anymore have the Promises made to Abraham and his descendants without Christ,
than we can have Salvation and the Blessings Promised to God's people without Christ.

"When the New Testament Book of Hebrews teaches that the Old Testament System of Sacrifices
is Forever Replaced by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then
Ezekiel chapters 40-48
should be Interpreted as being Fulfilled instead of looking for a Future Fulfillment.


"These are only a few of the many Scriptures where the New Testament writers
Interpreted the Old Testament Prophecies in a Non-Physical, Spiritually Faithful way.


"4. The Fourth rule of Interpretation is, to understand that the Bible itself
shows us that Prophecy is not always Fulfilled in a Physical Sense,
but God is expressing the Spiritual Sense of His Revelation to us.


"Genesis 3: 15 did not have a Physical Fulfillment of a descendant of Eve
stomping the head of a snake or any other Physical Means of bruising its head,
nor that a snake or serpent was to bite the heal of that descendant.

"It is understood that this is talking about Jesus Christ being Victorious on the cross
as He Redeemed His people and Defeated Satan.


"Prophets such as Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, Predicted that the Israelites would find a land which flowed with milk and honey,
but no one has reported finding any Physical streams of either product.

"Neither does it tell us that these Prophecies have been only Partially Fulfilled.
It was just Symbolic Language describing a Fruitful Land.

con't
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
"5. When Scripture is Interpreted, the simplest and most natural Interpretation should be considered first.

"6. Scriptures that are parallel, such as the Gospels, must be in harmony with one another and should be interpreted as such.
When one parallel passage gives added information, then the other should never be Interpreted to contradict that Revelation.

"For example, when
Matthew uses the terminology of, Kingdom of Heaven,
and Luke
in a Parallel Passage uses, Kingdom of God,
these Parallel Passages should not be Interpreted as Two Different Kingdoms, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

"7. Scripture should be Interpreted in its context to determine if it is Physical or Symbolic.
Prophetic Language is different from history because it is often Poetic and Symbolic.


"In Jeremiah 4: 24 he speaks of mountains trembling and hills moving to and fro.
This is Symbolic Language and to interpret it otherwise would be to miss the Prophets meaning
which was God's Judgment on Judah and the Babylonian Captivity.

"Scripture, therefore, must be Interpreted according to its local context, to its Book Context,
and in Harmony with the Context of the Whole Bible.

"Scripture must be Compared with Scripture because the Bible is its Own Best Interpreter.

"8. Bible Prophecy, in most cases, is conditional even though the conditions are not always stated.


"Jonah was told to Prophesy the downfall of Nineveh within a specified time and without any conditions attached.
When the people of Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching, the destruction did not occur as he had Predicted.
The Lord Spared the city but this did not make Jonah a False Prophet just because there was no physical Fulfillment to the Prophecy.

"Many people continue to say that God Promised Abraham's physical descendants the land of Palestine unconditionally forever.
If that were true, why have they spent most of their history in other lands since that Promise was made?

"Ishmael and Esau as well as children born to Abraham after Sarah died were all excluded from the Covenant.
Why would this be if there were no conditions attached?

"9. Old Testament Prophecy is usually addressed to Israel as a Covenant People of God,
therefore, it can be Fulfilled in the New Testament Covenant people of God
because the Old Testament Covenant People and the New Testament Covenant People are both in Christ.

"When Jeremiah was Inspired to say that the Lord would make a New Covenant
with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, (Jeremiah 31: 31-34),
then the writer of Hebrews was Inspired to say that this New Covenant was Established by Christ's Finished Work
and was to Replace the Old Covenant which he stated was ready to vanish away
,
certainly shows that Old Testament Prophecy to Israel can be Fulfilled in New Testament Spiritual Israel.

"10. Last but not least, all Scripture should be understood and Interpreted by the Leadership of God's Spirit,
because God is Spirit and His Word must be Interpreted through that Spiritual Leadership
whether it is talking about a Physical or Symbolic Spiritual Truth.


"The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him:
neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually Discerned"
, (I Corinthians 2: 14).


from: Why I Believe Eschatology the Way I Do
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Nice try to utterly avoid those 73 New Testament Scriptures, as if The Old Testament is supposed to have something taught in it
that just ENTIRELY ESCAPED THE NOTICE OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, FOR ONE, WHO IS ALL KNOWING = BY THE WAY,

ALONG WITH EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE OTHER AUTHORS GOD USED TO PEN ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BOOKS
THAT YOU ARE SAYING SUFFERED FROM SOME KIND OF ALL ENCOMPANCING UTTER, COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE, OBLITEROUSNESS.

Why do you know what Jesus didn't?



Why do you know what Jesus AND ALL OF THE OTHER WRITERS IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE didn't?

"The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him:
neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually Discerned"
, (I Corinthians 2: 14).

SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED?

DON'T BE AFRAID OF SPIRITUAL EXPRESSIONS IN INTERPRETING THE BIBLE.

THE AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE IS SPIRIT.

"GOD IS SPIRIT".

"Since the Bible must First be Interpreted the question is, how must it be Interpreted?

Physically, or Spiritually, or both ways?
and how do we determine which method or methods should be used?

"These are questions that must be answered in a way that will be compatible to God's Word.

"In the above statement you will notice that I used the terms 'Physical' vs Spiritual rather than Literal vs Spiritual.

"To say Literal vs Spiritual is to insinuate that those things that are Spiritual are not Literal.

"To do this would be saying that 'God is not Literal' because God is Spirit.

Therefore, I prefer to use the terms 'Physical' and Spiritual.

With these terms in mind we shall consider the following Rules of Interpretation:

"1. God's Word (the Bible) should be Interpreted 'Physically' wherever and whenever possible,
as long as it doesn't violate other Rules of Interpretation.
"Prophetic and Poetic writings will often have to be Interpreted Figuratively...

"2. The Second Rule of Interpretation is, Passages of Scriptures in Non-Symbolic and Apocalyptic writings
should take pre-eminence in forming doctrine rather than those passages found in symbolic and apocalyptic writings.

"All Scriptures are Inspired, but those that are clear and plain should influence those that are Symbolic rather than vise versa...

"3. The Third Rule is, Old Testament Prophecy should be Interpreted in the manner that we find in the New Testament.

"Without the New Testament Interpretation most all Old Testament Prophecies would continue to be a Mystery.

"For example, if Matthew had not Interpreted Isaiah 40:3 for us we would still be looking for someone
to make a straight highway in the desert for the Lord.

"Matthew also states in Matthew 21: 1-11, that Zechariah 9: 9 was Fulfilled when Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem.
Since Jesus was not a Physical King as the Jews expected, they rejected Him as King.

"Jesus Himself stated in Matthew 17: 11-13 that John the Baptist was Elijah.
If Malachi 4: 5 had not been Interpreted for us by the Lord, we would still be looking for Elijah to come.

"Peter claims that Joel's Prophecy, Joel 2: 28-32, was Fulfilled at Pentecost, Acts 2: 16-21.
There are some that try to claim that only part of this Prophecy was Fulfilled at Pentecost and the rest will be Fulfilled later.
If this were true we would have to admit that they were given more insight to the Scriptures than Peter,
because he did not say that this is part of Joel's Prophecy and the rest will follow,
but Peter say,
"this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."

"Peter continues with the Old Testament Prediction
that Jesus as King would someday sit on David's throne,

Psalms 16: 8-11; 2 Samuel 7: 12,
and declared it Fulfilled by the Resurrection of Christ, Acts 2: 30-31.

"Paul claims that the Promise made to Abraham and his seed, in that through him all Nations would be Blessed, Genesis 18:18,
has been Fulfilled in the Saving of Gentiles, Galatians 3: 8.

"The Promise was not to be Fulfilled through Abraham's fleshly descendants, but his Spiritual Seed.

"Also in this same chapter of Galatians Paul explained that the Promises that God made to Abraham
was not to his Physical Descendants
, as of many, but One which was Christ.

"This means that the Land and Blessings that God Promised to Abraham's fleshly descendants

was to be through Faith in the Coming Messiah.

"This is why Joshua said in Joshua 23: 15;
"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as All Good Things are Come upon you,
which the LORD your God Promised you; so shall the LORD Bring upon you All Evil Things,
until He have Destroyed you from off this Good Land which the LORD your God hath Given you.


16; "When ye have transgressed the Covenant of the LORD your God, which He Commanded you,
and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them;
then shall the Anger of the LORD be Kindled Against you,
and ye shall Perish Quickly from off the Good Land which He hath Given unto you."


The Jews cannot anymore have the Promises made to Abraham and his descendants without Christ,
than we can have Salvation and the Blessings Promised to God's people without Christ.

"When the New Testament Book of Hebrews teaches that the Old Testament System of Sacrifices
is Forever Replaced by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then
Ezekiel chapters 40-48
should be Interpreted as being Fulfilled instead of looking for a Future Fulfillment.


"These are only a few of the many Scriptures where the New Testament writers
Interpreted the Old Testament Prophecies in a Non-Physical, Spiritually Faithful way.


"4. The Fourth rule of Interpretation is, to understand that the Bible itself
shows us that Prophecy is not always Fulfilled in a Physical Sense,
but God is expressing the Spiritual Sense of His Revelation to us.


"Genesis 3: 15 did not have a Physical Fulfillment of a descendant of Eve
stomping the head of a snake or any other Physical Means of bruising its head,
nor that a snake or serpent was to bite the heal of that descendant.

"It is understood that this is talking about Jesus Christ being Victorious on the cross
as He Redeemed His people and Defeated Satan.


"Prophets such as Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, Predicted that the Israelites would find a land which flowed with milk and honey,
but no one has reported finding any Physical streams of either product.

"Neither does it tell us that these Prophecies have been only Partially Fulfilled.
It was just Symbolic Language describing a Fruitful Land.

con't
So any and all who reject seeing and understanding all prophecy as being spiritually fulfilled are "natural men?"
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
"5. When Scripture is Interpreted, the simplest and most natural Interpretation should be considered first.

"6. Scriptures that are parallel, such as the Gospels, must be in harmony with one another and should be interpreted as such.
When one parallel passage gives added information, then the other should never be Interpreted to contradict that Revelation.

"For example, when
Matthew uses the terminology of, Kingdom of Heaven,
and Luke
in a Parallel Passage uses, Kingdom of God,
these Parallel Passages should not be Interpreted as Two Different Kingdoms, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

"7. Scripture should be Interpreted in its context to determine if it is Physical or Symbolic.
Prophetic Language is different from history because it is often Poetic and Symbolic.


"In Jeremiah 4: 24 he speaks of mountains trembling and hills moving to and fro.
This is Symbolic Language and to interpret it otherwise would be to miss the Prophets meaning
which was God's Judgment on Judah and the Babylonian Captivity.

"Scripture, therefore, must be Interpreted according to its local context, to its Book Context,
and in Harmony with the Context of the Whole Bible.

"Scripture must be Compared with Scripture because the Bible is its Own Best Interpreter.

"8. Bible Prophecy, in most cases, is conditional even though the conditions are not always stated.


"Jonah was told to Prophesy the downfall of Nineveh within a specified time and without any conditions attached.
When the people of Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching, the destruction did not occur as he had Predicted.
The Lord Spared the city but this did not make Jonah a False Prophet just because there was no physical Fulfillment to the Prophecy.

"Many people continue to say that God Promised Abraham's physical descendants the land of Palestine unconditionally forever.
If that were true, why have they spent most of their history in other lands since that Promise was made?

"Ishmael and Esau as well as children born to Abraham after Sarah died were all excluded from the Covenant.
Why would this be if there were no conditions attached?

"9. Old Testament Prophecy is usually addressed to Israel as a Covenant People of God,
therefore, it can be Fulfilled in the New Testament Covenant people of God
because the Old Testament Covenant People and the New Testament Covenant People are both in Christ.

"When Jeremiah was Inspired to say that the Lord would make a New Covenant
with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, (Jeremiah 31: 31-34),
then the writer of Hebrews was Inspired to say that this New Covenant was Established by Christ's Finished Work
and was to Replace the Old Covenant which he stated was ready to vanish away
,
certainly shows that Old Testament Prophecy to Israel can be Fulfilled in New Testament Spiritual Israel.

"10. Last but not least, all Scripture should be understood and Interpreted by the Leadership of God's Spirit,
because God is Spirit and His Word must be Interpreted through that Spiritual Leadership
whether it is talking about a Physical or Symbolic Spiritual Truth.

"The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him:
neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually Discerned"
, (I Corinthians 2: 14).


from: Why I Believe Eschatology the Way I Do
Under messianic Age, earth will be Paradise restored, no famines, diseases, wars, false religions,all shall submit to Jesus as Lord, when has that ever happened historically?
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
seeing and understanding all prophecy as being spiritually fulfilled
"Old Testament Prophecy should be Interpreted
in the manner that we find in the New Testament.

"These are only a few of the many Scriptures where the New Testament writers

Interpreted the Old Testament Prophecies in a Non-Physical, Spiritually Faithful way.

I'm glad God has stirred your pot and rattled your cage to finally Bless you,
by His Grace, to see just how Jesus and His New Testament writers
Interpreted Old Testament Prophecy, with Miraculous Substance and Fullness.

The Revelation God has Made to Mankind is Truly a Miracle and Teaches His Truths.


These Methods God Employs by using His New Testament writers Sets us Free.

We can KNOW AND UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT GOD WANTS US TO KNOW.

It's an enormous Blessing to find out that we don't have to guess about Prophecy,
or try to think that it means nothing, really, if it was all future, anyway. What a drag.

And, it is in this way that we see New and Special Ways in which Jesus is Glorified.

So, now, God is a burr under the saddle of your flesh. Good. You won't be comfortable.

And the darkness WILL GIVE WAY TO LIGHT; Just Like a Candle in a Dark Room.

And, you know what? You'll LOVE IT!!

PRAISE GOD!

"Without the New Testament Interpretation
most all Old Testament Prophecies would continue to be a Mystery.


"For example, if Matthew had not Interpreted Isaiah 40:3 for us
we would still be looking for someone
to make a straight highway in the desert for the Lord.

"Matthew also states in Matthew 21: 1-11, that Zechariah 9: 9
was Fulfilled when Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem.

Since Jesus was not a Physical King as the Jews expected, they rejected Him as King.

"Jesus Himself stated in Matthew 17: 11-13 that John the Baptist was Elijah.
If Malachi 4: 5 had not been Interpreted for us by the Lord,
we would still be looking for Elijah to come.

"Peter claims that Joel's Prophecy, Joel 2: 28-32,
was Fulfilled at Pentecost, Acts 2: 16-21.

There are some that try to claim that only part of this Prophecy
was Fulfilled at Pentecost and the rest will be Fulfilled later.


If this were true we would have to admit that they were given
more insight to the Scriptures than Peter, because he did not say that
this is part of Joel's Prophecy and the rest will follow,
but Peter say,
"this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."

"Peter continues with the Old Testament Prediction
that Jesus as King would someday sit on David's throne,
Psalms 16: 8-11; 2 Samuel 7: 12,
and declared it Fulfilled by the Resurrection of Christ, Acts 2: 30-31.

"Paul claims that the Promise made to Abraham and his seed,
in that through him all Nations would be Blessed, Genesis 18:18,
has been Fulfilled in the Saving of Gentiles, Galatians 3: 8.

"The Promise was not to be Fulfilled through Abraham's fleshly descendants,
but his Spiritual Seed.

"Also in this same chapter of Galatians Paul explained
that the Promises that God made to Abraham was not to his Physical Descendants,
as of many, but One which was Christ.

"This means that the Land and Blessings that God Promised
to Abraham's fleshly descendantswas to be through Faith in the Coming Messiah.

"This is why Joshua said in
Joshua 23: 15;
"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as All Good Things are Come upon you,
which the LORD your God Promised you; so shall the LORD
Bring upon you All Evil Things, until He have Destroyed you from off this Good Land which the LORD your God hath Given you.

16; "When ye have transgressed the Covenant of the LORD your God,
which He Commanded you, and have gone and served other gods,
and bowed yourselves to them;
then shall the Anger of the LORD be Kindled Against you,
and ye shall Perish Quickly from off the Good Land which He hath Given unto you."


The Jews cannot anymore have the Promises made to Abraham and his descendants without Christ, than we can have Salvation and the Blessings Promised to God's people without Christ.

"When the New Testament Book of Hebrews
teaches that the Old Testament System of Sacrifices
is Forever Replaced by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ,
then
Ezekiel chapters 40-48 should be Interpreted as being Fulfilled
instead of looking for a Future Fulfillment.

"These are only a few of the many Scriptures where the New Testament writers
Interpreted the Old Testament Prophecies in a Non-Physical, Spiritually Faithful way.

"4. The Fourth rule of Interpretation is, to understand that the Bible itself
shows us that Prophecy is not always Fulfilled in a Physical Sense,
but God is expressing the Spiritual Sense of His Revelation to us.


"Genesis 3:15 did not have a Physical Fulfillment of a descendant of Eve
stomping the head of a snake or any other Physical Means of bruising its head,
nor that a snake or serpent was to bite the heal of that descendant.

"It is understood that this is talking about Jesus Christ being Victorious on the cross
as He Redeemed His people and Defeated Satan.


"Prophets such as Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel,
Predicted that the Israelites would find a land which flowed with milk and honey,
but no one has reported finding any Physical streams of either product.

"Neither does it tell us that these Prophecies have been only Partially Fulfilled.
It was just Symbolic Language describing a Fruitful Land."
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
"Old Testament Prophecy should be Interpreted
in the manner that we find in the New Testament.

"These are only a few of the many Scriptures where the New Testament writers

Interpreted the Old Testament Prophecies in a Non-Physical, Spiritually Faithful way.

I'm glad God has stirred your pot and rattled your cage to finally Bless you,
by His Grace, to see just how Jesus and His New Testament writers
Interpreted Old Testament Prophecy, with Miraculous Substance and Fullness.

The Revelation God has Made to Mankind is Truly a Miracle and Teaches His Truths.


These Methods God Employs by using His New Testament writers Sets us Free.

We can KNOW AND UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT GOD WANTS US TO KNOW.

It's an enormous Blessing to find out that we don't have to guess about Prophecy,
or try to think that it means nothing, really, if it was all future, anyway. What a drag.

And, it is in this way that we see New and Special Ways in which Jesus is Glorified.

So, now, God is a burr under the saddle of your flesh. Good. You won't be comfortable.

And the darkness WILL GIVE WAY TO LIGHT; Just Like a Candle in a Dark Room.

And, you know what? You'll LOVE IT!!

PRAISE GOD!

"Without the New Testament Interpretation
most all Old Testament Prophecies would continue to be a Mystery.


"For example, if Matthew had not Interpreted Isaiah 40:3 for us
we would still be looking for someone
to make a straight highway in the desert for the Lord.

"Matthew also states in Matthew 21: 1-11, that Zechariah 9: 9
was Fulfilled when Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem.

Since Jesus was not a Physical King as the Jews expected, they rejected Him as King.

"Jesus Himself stated in Matthew 17: 11-13 that John the Baptist was Elijah.
If Malachi 4: 5 had not been Interpreted for us by the Lord,
we would still be looking for Elijah to come.

"Peter claims that Joel's Prophecy, Joel 2: 28-32,
was Fulfilled at Pentecost, Acts 2: 16-21.

There are some that try to claim that only part of this Prophecy
was Fulfilled at Pentecost and the rest will be Fulfilled later.


If this were true we would have to admit that they were given
more insight to the Scriptures than Peter, because he did not say that
this is part of Joel's Prophecy and the rest will follow,
but Peter say,
"this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."

"Peter continues with the Old Testament Prediction
that Jesus as King would someday sit on David's throne,
Psalms 16: 8-11; 2 Samuel 7: 12,
and declared it Fulfilled by the Resurrection of Christ, Acts 2: 30-31.

"Paul claims that the Promise made to Abraham and his seed,
in that through him all Nations would be Blessed, Genesis 18:18,
has been Fulfilled in the Saving of Gentiles, Galatians 3: 8.

"The Promise was not to be Fulfilled through Abraham's fleshly descendants,
but his Spiritual Seed.

"Also in this same chapter of Galatians Paul explained
that the Promises that God made to Abraham was not to his Physical Descendants,
as of many, but One which was Christ.

"This means that the Land and Blessings that God Promised
to Abraham's fleshly descendantswas to be through Faith in the Coming Messiah.

"This is why Joshua said in
Joshua 23: 15;
"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as All Good Things are Come upon you,
which the LORD your God Promised you; so shall the LORD
Bring upon you All Evil Things, until He have Destroyed you from off this Good Land which the LORD your God hath Given you.

16; "When ye have transgressed the Covenant of the LORD your God,
which He Commanded you, and have gone and served other gods,
and bowed yourselves to them;
then shall the Anger of the LORD be Kindled Against you,
and ye shall Perish Quickly from off the Good Land which He hath Given unto you."


The Jews cannot anymore have the Promises made to Abraham and his descendants without Christ, than we can have Salvation and the Blessings Promised to God's people without Christ.

"When the New Testament Book of Hebrews
teaches that the Old Testament System of Sacrifices
is Forever Replaced by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ,
then
Ezekiel chapters 40-48 should be Interpreted as being Fulfilled
instead of looking for a Future Fulfillment.

"These are only a few of the many Scriptures where the New Testament writers
Interpreted the Old Testament Prophecies in a Non-Physical, Spiritually Faithful way.

"4. The Fourth rule of Interpretation is, to understand that the Bible itself
shows us that Prophecy is not always Fulfilled in a Physical Sense,
but God is expressing the Spiritual Sense of His Revelation to us.


"Genesis 3:15 did not have a Physical Fulfillment of a descendant of Eve
stomping the head of a snake or any other Physical Means of bruising its head,
nor that a snake or serpent was to bite the heal of that descendant.

"It is understood that this is talking about Jesus Christ being Victorious on the cross
as He Redeemed His people and Defeated Satan.


"Prophets such as Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel,
Predicted that the Israelites would find a land which flowed with milk and honey,
but no one has reported finding any Physical streams of either product.

"Neither does it tell us that these Prophecies have been only Partially Fulfilled.
It was just Symbolic Language describing a Fruitful Land."
The Apostles still saw a future restoration for the kingdom to National israel, just had to learn that until that happens at second coming event, need to be about teaching and preaching Jesus as Lord
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Under messianic Age, earth will be Paradise restored, no famines, diseases, wars, false religions,all shall submit to Jesus as Lord,

"Old Testament prophecy forecasts glorious prospects for Judah and Jerusalem.

"One such passage is Isaiah 65:17-25. Jehovah creates new heavens and a new earth (v.17). In this new world, Jerusalem will be a rejoicing and the citizens of Jerusalem, a joy (v.18). None will die young, and old sinners will be accursed (v. 20). The people of Jerusalem will live productive, profitable, peaceful lives, free from disappointment, opposition, and trouble. They will build houses and live in them; they will plant vineyards and eat of them; theirs will be lives without weeping (vv. 19-23). Such will be the bliss of this new world that even the animals will be at peace: “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together” (v.25).

"Isaiah 65:17ff
... is about Jesus Christ, His church, salvation, eternal life, and a new, different world.

"It is about a spiritual Christ, a spiritual people, spiritual salvation, spiritual blessings, spiritual life, and a spiritual world.

"The New Testament instructs us to interpret Old Testament prophecy spiritually. In the earthly figures familiar to the prophets and their hearers, the Holy Spirit of Christ foretold the spiritual glories of Jesus Christ, His church, and His new creation. Those earthly features of the prophecy — houses, fruitful vineyards, successful labor, trouble-free days, no crying, long earthly life, Jerusalem — are not the reality of the prophecy.

"They never were the reality of the prophecy.

"They were not the reality of the prophecy for the spiritual Israelite at that time. He or she saw through them and beyond them to better and higher prospects: the things that eye has not seen, that ear has not heard, and that never entered into the heart of man to imagine, the things that God has prepared for them that love him (I Cor. 2:9).

"Must it be spelled out? Houses, fruitful vineyards, successful labor, trouble-free days, no crying, long earthly life, and Jerusalem are all things that eyes have seen, ears have heard, and have entered into the heart of man to imagine. These are not the things, therefore, that God prepared for the spiritual Israelites who loved Him.

"Those earthly trivia, once used to represent the heavenly kingdom and life, certainly are not the reality of Old Testament prophecy for us New Testament believers who have already begun to experience the life, riches, and glory of the risen Christ by the gift and indwelling of the Spirit of Pentecost."​
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
when has that ever happened historically?

"What now is the spiritual interpretation and fulfillment of Isaiah 65:17ff.?

"Comprehensively, Isaiah 65:17-25 prophesies the entire saving work of God in Jesus Christ. As is customary with the prophets, Isaiah sees this work as one, great event, much as one sees the distant mountains as one, great range. Included are both the perfection of salvation (and of the Messianic kingdom) in the Day of Christ and the beginning of salvation (and of the Messianic kingdom) throughout the present age between Pentecost and the Day of Christ. All of this salvation, of course, has its basis in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for God’s elect world.

"That this is, in fact, the content of Isaiah’s prophecy is proved from New Testament comment on the passage. In II Peter 3:13, the apostle applies the prophecy of Isaiah 65:17 to God’s work in Jesus Christ on the day of Christ’s second coming. In the context of the teaching that the present creation will be destroyed by fire, Peter says, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

"The apostle Paul, however, instructs us that there is also a fulfillment of the prophecy throughout the present age. In II Corinthians 5:17, he tells us that “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

"The authoritative New Testament explanation of the prophecy is that God’s saving work in Christ will be a renewal of the creation for the benefit of the church, the “elect” of Isaiah 65:22, at the second coming of Jesus, which renewal begins already now in the regeneration of each elect personally.

"There is nothing in the New Testament reflection on the prophecy that so much as hints at an earthly kingdom in history
consisting of carnal benefits, physical dominion, and worldly peace.


"Specifically, Isaiah 65:17ff. is the prophecy of the new world of heavens and earth that Jesus Christ will create at His second coming. This is the plain teaching of Isaiah 65:17ff. itself: “I create new heavens and a new earth.” This is the New Testament explanation both in II Peter 3:13, already quoted, and in Revelation 21:1: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”

"When He comes again in the body, at the end of history, Jesus Christ will destroy the present form of the creation in order to re-create the heavens and earth that God made in the beginning in their new, glorious, final form. The creation will share in the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:19-22).

"This new world will be the dwellingplace the home — of the new human race in Christ, the elect church from all nations, believers and their children (Is. 65:22, 23). The new creation will be home to the saints because Jehovah God will live with them there in Jesus Christ in the fellowship of the everlasting covenant. The new world that is coming will be “my holy mountain” (Is. 65:25).

"There will be no trouble and no sorrow there, absolutely none — not one tear (Is. 65:19). Revelation 21:4, the New Testament light on the prophecy, informs us that the reason is that there will be no death in the new world. Christ, mighty Messianic king, will have destroyed the last enemy for us (II Cor. 15:26).

"As is typical of Old Testament prophecy, the prophet announced this coming deathless world in figurative language: long, earthly life (v.20). No baby will die in infancy; to die at 100 years of age would be accounted mere childhood; all the inhabitants will fill their days. The reality is: no death! everlasting life in resurrected soul and body, because the life of the people of God in the new world will be the immortal life of the risen Christ.

"The New Testament gives this explanation of this and similar, figurative Old Testament prophecies everywhere, e.g., John 5:25, 26. Revelation 21:4, the authoritative New Testament interpretation of Isaiah 65:20, puts beyond any doubt that this is what Isaiah meant: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death.”

"Cursed sinners will be excluded from the new world, existing everlastingly under God’s curse in hell (Is. 65:20b; cf. Rev. 21:8).

"The lifting of the curse from God’s beloved world on the basis of Christ’s redeeming death and by the power of His renewing Spirit will extend to the animals. There will be animals in the new creation, just as there were animals in the original creation of Genesis 1 and 2. Christ’s redemption will be enjoyed by them, so that they will live in peace with each other as they did in the original phase of creation before the transgression of the first and unfaithful king (Gen. 1:29-31). There will be no death in the world of animal and plant.

"The complete absence of death in the new world will be due to the perfect purging of sin from the creation. Peter tells us this “...wherein dwelleth righteousness” (II Pet. 3:13). Only righteousness will dwell there. No unrighteousness whatever will be found there. All ungodly men will have perished under the judgment of God (v.7).

"Is this not a wonderful salvation?

"Do not believers and their offspring have a grand hope, abundantly able to sustain them in all their present tribulations?

"Is not the everlasting kingship and kingdom of Jesus the Messiah glorious?

"Will not His victory be manifested as incomparable? All foes destroyed, even death. All God’s people perfectly delivered from sorrow and death unto the bliss of fellowship with the triune God in His Face, Jesus the Christ. The creation itself transformed into a new world, whose goodness and splendor cause the old form of the world to fade forever into forgottenness.

"All this fulfillment of Isaiah 65:17ff. will be spiritual. The prophecy holds before us, as it held before the true Israelite in Isaiah’s day, a spiritual salvation; spiritual blessings; spiritual life; and, indeed, a spiritual world. For the last Adam is spiritual, and we expect to live a spiritual life in our spiritual body in a spiritual creation (I Cor. 15:42ff).

"The second specific fulfillment of Isaiah 65:17ff. is the spiritual life in Christ by faith of every regenerated child of God in the time between Pentecost and the second coming. This is the authoritative explanation of the Isaiah prophecy by the apostle in II Corinthians 5:17: “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.” He is a new creature already, in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 65:17.

"The new world that is coming in the Day of Christ already breaks into the present world by the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit of Christ. It breaks into the heart of every elect child of God. It makes him a new creature. There is in his life a beginning of the deliverance from sin, sorrow, and death; of the joy; of the profitable, holy work; of the fellowship with God; of the everlasting life, of Isaiah 65:17ff. This shows itself in his confession and behavior. It brings down upon him the persecution of those who hate the Messiah and oppose His reign, the enemies of the new world.

"This powerful beginning of the new world in the life of the Christian here and now does not, however, gradually bring about the culmination of the kingdom of Christ in creation. Regenerated saints do not realize postmillennialism’s “golden age.”

"As our present, earthly body becomes the future, spiritual body by the wonder of resurrection in the Day of Christ, so also does the present, pitiful, earthly creation become the future, glorious, spiritual creation by the wonder of recreation in the Day of Christ.

“Behold,” says Jehovah by the prophet, “I create new heavens and a new earth.”

Excerpts from:​
 
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