REVELATIONS ANTICHRIST

[Alex]

I guess anyone who isn't a Christian is an antichrist but the one I would like us to discuss is the REAL one referenced in Revelations. I know there are many books and theories as to who this antichrist will be and how his "career" unfolds in the end times. Now this end times is in itself another topic with also many versions as to when, how, etc..

My understanding up to know, the way I see it, is that he(the reference from now on to the antichrist), will not suddenly apear as a full grow person but will be born such as you and I. This means to me that he could be a baby now, a teenager or a grown adult or not yet born as I suspect that he hasn't, yet.

Now as my story unfolds, this new born baby will seemingly be as pure as any other baby as well as a growing clild. My problem lies in the fact that this infant has NO other future than to be th antichrist in the future as an adult no matter how much he wa involved in Christianity while growing up. This doesn't seem fair but unless someone else's comments prove otherwise, that is the cold, hard truth in my perspective.

This grown person would have to be very smart and at the same time seem like a good person or maybe even seem to be a Christian as he would eventually have to "fool" most of the world, including Christians and would have to gain confidence with most or all of the world leaders so he could eventually gain control over the world.

There are a lot of if's and why's when dealing with him. Is he doomed even before birth to have this final power as described in Revelations? At some point, satan completely controls him. As it is know that he will not succeed in defeating Christ, does he not know this at an early time in his life also or is it that he doesn't ever really know he is the Bibical antichrist until it is too late? Being born as a normal human(my opinion), wouldn't he have a chance to accept Christ or again, is his fate sealed from the beginning? There are many questions that could be asked about him and his evidently unentend quests that follow later as a adult. Maybe I am way off base and he just appears as a human adult???

So, I hope for many to place there thoughts and expertise on the subject which has been debated many times and to some, think it is a useless discussion but again for many, it is a learning experience. There is more to being a Christian than accepting Jesus as your Savior, which to me, is to learn as much as possible about the more mysterious aspects of the Bible, from beginning to end. Ironic, but my last topic was about the beginning and now it is about the end. We may or maynot be on this earth when his time comes but it is possible and much more for our grandchildren and their children OR it may be 10,000 years from now. I have no predictions and think it it is folly to even think you can predict the actual end times.

So, your thoughts please and thanks in advance. I would ask that we carry on in a civil manner. This is actually in the Baptist section but unless the Moderators have a problem with it, I would like for even non-Baptists opinions.

God Bless............Alex

 

[Grasshopper]

Non Pre-Millinialist believe "the" Antichrist was Nero.

 

[Tim]

Perhaps a little explanation is necessary about Nero as a candidate for the Antichrist.
This view holds that the Revelation was written in the 60's (as opposed to the 90's) and was a prophecy of Christ's judgement upon the nation of Israel for their rejection of the gospel. Futurists (like premillenialists) criticize this view as disregarding specific language (like the 1000 years in Rev. 20 and cataclysmic events throughout), and yet they disregard specific language at the very introduction of the book (1:3)"the time is at hand".
So goes the debate.
At least Nero as antichrist resolves some of your conflicts about his role--he was already an adult when this prophecy was made.

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
Non Pre-Millinialist believe "the" Antichrist was Nero.

So where do that get this from? As I have often said, someone has to be wrong as there is only one right. At the least, IF they were right, it seems that as seen in REV., Christ would soon follow to reign for the 1000 years. Again, none of this type difference hurts our salvation but it would be good to come to some common ground. It also seems that no one even wants to discuss this unless I put it on a wrong main topic for the thread. Can you go farther into your personal thoughts?

God Bless............Alex

PS: If I understand it right, he would have to become a world leader......totally in charge. So far in history no one has succeeded in this as of now.

 

[tyndale1946]

I John 2:[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I John 4:[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John [7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Apostle Paul was beheaded by Nero and Apostle Peter was crucified by him according to Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History. If you want to read a good book on this I recommend... Before Jerusalem Fell by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. Check here to order your copy... Read it Alex and then come to your own conclusion!... Brother Glen

http://www.discerningreader.com/befjerfelken.html

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
If you want to read a good book on this I recommend... Before Jerusalem Fell by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. Check here to order your copy...

"Before Jerusalem Fell is an attempt by Gentry to prove that Revelation is all past. He is a preterist. Of course, his entire theory depends on Revelation being written before AD 70. It isn't possible to prove this in any way. He does attempt it though.

 

[tyndale1946]

While a agree with what Preach the word said... btw Gentry is not a full preterist only partial and there is a difference. His view of that time and the worship of the Ceasars especially Nero is well worth the price of the book... IMHO!

There are views that the Antichrist is the pope... Or some other great leader to come in the future... There are views on the Antichrist aplenty... Read Gentry's book for a different view and then come to your own conclusion!... Brother Glen

 

[Grasshopper]

IF they were right, it seems that as seen in REV., Christ would soon follow to reign for the 1000 years.

Those who hold to that view believe we are in the reign of Christ. 1000 years isn't a literal 1000 but a general term. Much like "God owns the cattle on a 1000 hills" God owns more than that. I don't know which is right , but it is very interesting to read and hear what non-Premillinial dispensationalist believe. Makes you think a little.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
Makes you think a little.

It makes me glad I am premillenial.

 

[Tim]

Come on Preach,

You know premillenialists can't deal with all the language of a soon return in the New Testament without doing some fancy hermaneutical footwork.

Nobody's got it easy

 

[Frogman]

Some may not accept what I believe, but if we all agreed this board would be doing more praising and less debating, regardless of your agreement here goes...

I believe the Anti-Christ will be Jewish, not raised in a Christian background.

I believe the Anti-Christ must be Jewish because he must convince the nation of God, not the church.

Revelation 13 says: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea" before the opening of this chapter is the closing of ch. 12 which states "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

At the present time Israel does not have the testimony of Christ. However, the woman is Israel for it is through Israel whereby a man child was brought forth, not the church; so 13.1 is speaking of a time yet future when the church is absent and Israel is present. Those with the testimony of Christ are those whom are of course known to God and it is in the devil's interest to keep Israel down thus to make war with her.

Now back to 13.1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea..."

In scripture the sand is often figurative of Israel while the sea is often figurative of the gentile nations.

Because of grammer and vs. 17 of ch. 12 I believe the subject here (I) should be "he" thus making the dragon or satan the one standing upon the sand of the sea. As the Anti-Christ will rise out of the sea, I believe he will be one who is of Jewish background, but still outside of Israel, or in the Gentile nations.

Israel is expecting the coming of a Messiah from the line of David. This person came in Christ, but they rejected him because he did not establish the Kingdom at that time; The Anti-Christ will have the ability to establish a Pseudo-Kingdom, thus satisfying the Jewish expectation.

The False Prophet I believe is the beast from out of the earth. He is of the earth and will represent a religious system. The Anti-Christ will represent the political system.

It is misleading to think the Anti-Christ must deceive the whole world alone. Rather the propensity toward a unified world government will aid him in decieving the world; or in subdueing those not deceived.

A peace will be established in which the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jewish worship again brought back; including the sacrifice.

(Articles from Arutz-7, a Jewish news magazine, claim that a 'red heifer' has been born in Israel) This is being pursued in order to re-establish the Temple worship.

The Anti-Christ, False Prophet and Satan all will work to form the False Trinity, this is shown in 13.18 "666" is the number of man and is a trinity number.

These are some of my thoughts on the Anti-Christ

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Tim:
You know premillenialists can't deal with all the language of a soon return in the New Testament without doing some fancy hermaneutical footwork.

Actually, I don't know of a single passage that presents even a hint of a problem. Do you know of one?

 

[CompassionFlower]

from Alex
"There are a lot of if' and why's when dealing with him. Is he doomed even before birth to have this final power as described in Revelation. At some point, satan completely controls him. As it is know that he will succeed in defeating Christ-does he know this at an early time in his life also or is it that he doesn't even really know he is the Biblical antichrist?"

Dear Alex:

Your thoughts bring my mind to Judas Iscariot. The bible does not tell us when Jesus chose Judas Iscariot to be His disciple, that Judas than at that time knew he would be the one who would betray Jesus. Judas seemed to start out all right but later he would start to become disobedient to Christ. Remember when Jesus was anointed with the expensive perfume by Mary. She poured it on Jesus feet and than wiped his feet with her hair. How upset Judas Iscariot became at John 12: 4-6 and said "why wasn't this perfume sold and the money give to the poor...he did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what ws put into it." It is here we can see how Judas true heart was coming to the fore.

Later on Jesus predicts who will betray him to his disciples. John 13:26-27 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish. Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him."

This would be a critical moment, for if the giving of bread to Judas was a mark of honor, it seems it would have been a final appeal to Judas not to betray Jesus. By accepting the bread Judas was allowing Satan to enter him to fullfill what was to be done to Jesus.

The antichrist will he always know who he is? It seems he too will show himself as to where his heart is. Not immediately as you say he would be born into this world and will grow to his adulthood. At what point he takes the authority of the antichrist, will probably show where his heart also is. In that sense than God knew all along what the antichrist was going to do and it was written before time in Revelation. Just some thoughts, hope this would make sense.

Sincerely, Pam

 

[Alex]

Thanks to all for participating in this discussion. The problem I have had for years and to some extent, still now, is that form God's view, you might say some are predestioned to do certain things that are future tense. To this end, it seems that someone is already know by God as to be the person for any specific future event to unfold.

Someone had to betray Jesus to fulfill His already predetermined Crucifiction for our salvation by means of grave and acceptance of Jesus as our Savior. In this case, as mention in the above post, was to be Judas. The same question applies here as to the antichrist, where they both in a part of Bibical history that they have no control over? If you say they had control, then it would STILL have to fall on someone and that someone, I feel has no choice as they are part of the unfolding story of Bibical prophesys.

As for my views, I believe in a future rapture, not one we are living in now, nor in the past. How do y'all feel about the book series of "Left Behind"? Although it is fiction and I only read the first 3 books, I find it a very reasonable story line of the future antichrist, etc..

Revelations is a book that most sermons or Bible studys seem to be left out as well as Genesis. Revelations I would say is the most difficult to understand and I often wonder WHY God would have had it to be so hard to understand. Each person's view is easy for them but there are many, many different views as well as books.

So, lets go on with more input......thanks and

God Bless...........Alex

PS: Even though I mentioned predestination, I do not believe in it as I still believe we all have a free will choice even though for some Bibical characters, it seems otherwise.

 

[Tentmaker]

I may join this discussion later, but for, I don't want to seem trivial, can we please get it right--it is Revelation, no s. There is only one Revelation, and that of Christ, pretrib., and premill. thank you very much

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by Tentmaker:
I may join this discussion later, but for, I don't want to seem trivial, can we please get it right--it is Revelation, no s. There is only one Revelation, and that of Christ, pretrib., and premill. thank you very much

Sorry, a bad habit of mine as I look at the overall book of Revelation as "revelations" to us, in a general sense. You might just call it Louisiana southern slang.

God Bless...........Alex

 

[CompassionFlower]

Dear Friends:

First I think of Romans 3:10 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away ... Total depravity, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, he will not choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. God choses certain individuals, it is His sovereign will. God chooses the sinner. This of course is my opinion and all others have their way of looking at things.

Left behind series, I don't believe we should use fiction to come to an understanding of spiritual things, rather using God's Word and allowing Holy Spirit to direct, guide your thoughts and heart.

Things are not always easy to understand. A person in Christ can be in any religious organization, baptist, lutheran, ect... Yet one can be baptist and believe totally different than another baptist. One thing for sure, my heart's desire is to stay away from any teachings in the least way lean towards a JW. Just an opinion.

Blessings, Pam

 

[tyndale1946]

Here is an article by Elder Michael Gowens called Revelation The Big Picture... Which I feel puts it all into perspective!... Brother Glen

http://www.sovgrace.net/rev.htm

[ February 09, 2003, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Richard1458]

Brothers & sisters, if anyone would like, you need to read "Revelation Unveiled". It deals solely with the book of Revelation and the end time prophecies being fulfilled. It also helps make the book of Revelation much easier to understand, as this book I mentioned is written in "laymans'" terms.

God bless you all,

Richard

"I've got my feet on the ROCK & my name on the Roll!"

 

[Alex]

To the comments about the series "Left Behind", even though a book of fiction it very clearly follows scripture and was aurthored by many theologians and their combined views. I reccommend it for an easy laymens reading. I will also try to get the book mentioned in the above post. Some of the better learning for laypeople such as myself often comes from books like these and by your own references to Revelation. However, ALL book, no matter who the author is, is basically their views but when you put together many for comparison you often get a good deal of knowlede. The same thought holds from Ministers as a lot of their sermons, even though referenced to scriptures has a lot of there personal views added. That is why so many denonimations and different ways of presenting the Gospel. I dought if we will ever know the total "truth" until we talk to God. But, all of this said, the main closness we all have is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and is our Lord and Savior which is the main part for us to know and to believe.

God Bless..........Alex