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Revelation's Harlot

GraceSaves

New Member
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation ... thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."


How do I not understand this ? The way it is written, Baptists can't be saved. It's in plain english. Those who reject the Catholic Church can't be saved. That's what it says.

And it is wrong!!!!
Brother Curtis,

I severely question you. Did you copy this from a source? A nice chunk of that paragraph is missing (replaced with ...). The full paragraph reads:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

It means quite a different thing, making Christ the object of the necessity, and not the Church.

So, where did you get the paragraph? Did you cut out the middle portion, or did they? If you did, I really question why you wold be deceiving like that. If they did, you are still pulling your sources from a third party, who are making changes to fit an agenda.

God bless,

Grant
 
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation ... thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

How do I not understand this ? The way it is written, Baptists can't be saved. It's in plain english. Those who reject the Catholic Church can't be saved. That's what it says.

And it is wrong!!!!
How do you not understand this? Good question, but it is obvious that you do not.

"...knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ..."

Do you know that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God thorugh Christ?

No, you say?

Well then, does this apply to you? (Hint - No)

Does it say then that as a Baptist you can't be saved? (Hint - No)

I must say, Curtis, it really does not appear to me that you have any real interest in understanding what the Church actually teaches. You seem to have an deliberate intent to misunderstand. After all, your quote above really isn't that hard to understand if one wants to.

Ron
 

Dualhunter

New Member
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
Somebody said that being included in the plan of salvation basically just means a potential to be saved (i.e. if the person later turns to Christ), however because it says "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator", it is therefore implied that those who do not acknowledge the Creator have no potential to be saved.

The rest of the paragraph does not shed extra light on this key sentence, rather it simply causes more confusion:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Before the above sentence, the Catechism was talking about the Jews who also profess the faith of Abraham and have a better claim than the Muslims.

So who gets saved and who comes first?
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
Originally posted by GraceSaves:


I severely question you. Did you copy this from a source? A nice chunk of that paragraph is missing (replaced with ...). The full paragraph reads:

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

It means quite a different thing, making Christ the object of the necessity, and not the Church.

God bless,

Grant
The last sentence in YOUR quote says tha nobody who rejects the Catholic Church can be saved. Grant, that's what it says. No matter what the previous or following sentences say, the last sentence says all I need to see. I can read.
 

GraceSaves

New Member
Brother Curtis,

Thank you for avoiding the issue of the missing portion of the quote. I find that very dishonest of you.

Jesus said for all to believe and be baptised. The Catholic Church carries out that message. Therefore, he who denies the message of the Catholic Church denies He who sent him.

It's a simple concept, and you're deliberately using it to claim damnation for yourself so that you can call the Church evil. You have yet to read the context, and I will not argue this any further, for its a waste of my breath. There is nothing more I can say to you to make it clearer. Believe what you want to believe, Curtis; I can't change your mind. I'm arguing that you are a saved Christian, and you're telling me I'm wrong in saying that.

I suggest you pray about this.

God bless,

Grant
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DualHunter,

Are the Jews not awaiting the Messiah, the Son of God? We as Christians know that He has already come; they have rejected Him. However, they still believe that He exists and is still to come. So, while they believe in the Creator, they also believe in the Messiah to come. That differs from the Muslims who believe that God is One in the sense that he cannot be Triune or otherwise. Their religion is fundamentally different than that of the Jews. Therefore, when speaking of the Creator only, this is a closer example of Muslims, which is why they would be named as "first." That has nothing to do with some sort of order that you might be implying, like they are more favorable. It has nothing to do with favor; it's finding common ground that we can use to bring them to know Jesus.

I'm not going to repeat myself for 20 pages about this. The answer is clear.

God bless,

Grant
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
My argument was never with you, Grant. It's the RCC that I have the issue with.

Don't take it personal.

And it fits right in with the thread. Once a church claims it is the only truth, that those who reject it reject the truth, the end-times church is present.


Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
 
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
And now this little tidbit...

http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news/pope02.html

Seems like he's making his own theology up as he goes along.
You're the victim of a hoax, Curtis.
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Gull-a-bull. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
So I'll watch that site, and see if the RCC goes after them for libel. After all, that's what it is, correct ?
 

GraceSaves

New Member
Curtis,

Thank you for making all of my points so clear, that you will post anything to tear down a Church that you don't know the first thing about in reality.

Here is another story, just a few down from the one you posted:

http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news/rapturetalk.html

As you see by his commentary, this is a comedy site, where the writer makes up funny religious stories. Take this sentence, and apply it to the way you're acting:

"Many people said they didn't even care if it was true, but that it deserved to be true, just because they found it so funny."

The fact that you thought the Catholic Church would define a new dogma on "physical immortality," and then read an article that expressly makes fun of the pope, and then promulgate it here as truth, clearly shows that you have no respect for our Church (which you'll likely openly admit), and that this lack of respect is grounded on a breaking of the 8th commandment (or 9th commandment, most likely, as you recite them).

Please, Brother Curtis, open your eyes.

God bless,

Grant
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
Well I don't hear anybody coming right out and refuting the article, only poking fun at the source.

So which is it ? Is it true ? Are you going to pursue charges ?
 
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
So I'll watch that site, and see if the RCC goes after them for libel. After all, that's what it is, correct ?
No, Curtis, I doubt anyone is going to sue over this. It is obviously a joke.

To me the bigger joke is that anyone would actually believe it!!!
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Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
Well I believe it. Since you are only poking fun at the source, and can only offer insults, then what choice do I have. Refute it, if you can.
 

jasonW*

New Member
The story is not true.
From site:
Some of the stories below are really true. See if you can figure out which ones they are.
and

From bottom of site (disclaimer)
All (EAP) stories are the property of Elroy Willis and may not be reproduced for profit without permission. Email Elroy
First paragraph of story
VATICAN CITY (AEP) -- In a Papal decree published Monday, John Paul II proclaimed the doctrine of "Physical Immortality" of the Sovereign Pontiff. From now on, the bishop of Rome will "possess the temporal immanence with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed."
Similiar to the onion site, this is a satire site.

In Christ,
jason

[ November 21, 2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: jasonW* ]
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
I get about 30 a day. And today I took for granted a pretty reliable source. I take the blame. We have enough real issues to discuss, and I should have checked these more carefully.

Learn sumpthin' new everyday.

Carry on.

And if you want to berate me, I deserve it, but use the PM so we don't wastre more space than I already have.

Again, my apologies.
 
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