Revelation's Harlot

[BobRyan]

Curtis quoting a questionable source:
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation ... thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

First of all the REAL case is much worse than the source above claims.

Notice that the source does NOT say only Catholics are saved. IT specifically identifies the case where "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"

So far that specific point from the source has not been refuted on this thread WITH a quote to the contrary.

The quote about Muslims posted earlier does not address the claim above since they DO NOT believe " that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ".

This thread has covered up the fact that Vatican II created a CHANGE in policy toward non-Catholics from sending them all to hell, to the next step back - ALLOWING them to go to purgatory (AND THEN to heaven after some time in Purgatory - max time in fact) BUT NOT under the New Covenant.

Historically the position seems to have been even stronger - as it came from Popes and councils on the subject of salvation outside the Catholic church.

According to the Cahtolic teaching on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus ("outside the church there is no salvation") "heretics" (including Protestants and Eastern Orthodoxy as the term was applied historically by the Catholic church) cannot be saved (as the original papal decrees imply)

Pope Boniface VIII taught in his Unam Sanctam decree

>>>>> Therefore, this one and single Church has one head and not two heads,- for had she two heads, she would be a monster,- that is, Christ and Christ's vicar, Peter and Peter's successor. For the Lord said unto Peter, "Feed my sheep." "My," he said, speaking generally and not particularly, "these and those," by which it is to be understood that all the sheep are committed unto him. So, when the Greeks [Eastern Orthodox] and others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they must confess that they are not of Christ's sheep, even as the Lord says in John, "There is one fold and one shepherd."...

Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff [the Pope],- this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation. >>>>>

The Council of Florence taught: >>>>> [The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the Sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. >>>>>

The First Vatican Council taught:

"Hence we teach and declare that by the appointment of our Lord the Roman Church possesses a superiority of ordinary power over all other churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate; to which all, of whatever right and dignity, both pastors and faithful, both individually and collectively, are bound, by their duty of hierarchial subordination and true obedience, to submit not only in matters which belong to faith and morals, but also in those which appertain to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world, so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor through the preservation of unity both of communion and of profession of the same faith with the Roman Pontiff. This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Dr Carroll of EWTN confirms that the Catholic church has only recently allowed non-Catholics into heaven IF they are "ignorant" of the claims of the RCC. He also admits that the term "New Covenant" applies ONLY to the Catholic Mass.

Answer by Warren H. Carroll, Ph.D on 08-30-2001:
The reference to the New Covenant does certainly refer to the Mass. Please read John 6, which Protestants seem to avoid "like the plague." When "Unam Sanctam" was issued, there were no Protestants, because the Protestant revolt had not yet happened. For salvation of Protestants, see the recent very important Church statement "Dominus Jesus," which makes it clear that Protestants can be saved if thery are in "invincible ignorance" that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Though many Catholics seem unaware of it, this doctrine was taught as long ago as the 19th century. - Dr. Carroll

The case before the 19th century for Protestants was NOT ONLY that they could not be saved under the New Covenant (as the claim is today that they indeed CAN not be saved under the NEw Covenant - but must be saved ANOTHER way) - it was that they could not be saved AT ALL as the previous post points out.

All this has been covered up in the responses so far in defense of the RCC when responding to Curtis.

How misleading.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Dr Carroll of EWTN confirms that the Catholic church has only recently allowed non-Catholics into heaven IF they are "ignorant" of the claims of the RCC. He also admits that the term "New Covenant" applies ONLY to the Catholic Mass.
The case before the 19th century for Protestants was NOT ONLY that they could not be saved under the New Covenant (as the claim is today that they indeed CAN not be saved under the NEw Covenant - but must be saved ANOTHER way) - it was that they could not be saved AT ALL as the previous post points out.

All this has been covered up in the responses so far in defense of the RCC when responding to Curtis.

[SARCASM]This, of course, cannot be true as it would show what many on this board have pointed out all along; the catholic church has and does change doctrine. Change, thereby implying error or misunderstanding, would discredit the guise of infallibilty, thus showing (rather, exposing) the catholic church's false claims. So, this simply has to be another fabrication by the hellish protestant miscreants whose anti-catholic bias is present in all they do. How sad[/SARCASM]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."


In my opinion, this point has been ignored. The quote is from a reputable source, even if the RCC considers it a hateful source.

There are also too many other statements in the document to doubt that the RCC claims itself as the only true path to salvation. Read the document yourself, and decide.
Exerpts from the New Catholic Catechism

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.

820 Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God ... The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

1493 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.

1497 Individual and integral confession of grave sins followed by absolution remains the only ordinary means of reconciliation with God and with the Church.


These are just the points that deal with the RCC's claims of being the only true church of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Jason W
So, this simply has to be another fabrication by the hellish protestant miscreants whose anti-catholic bias is present in all they do. How sad

Point well made Jason - even if in sarcasm.

Instead of addressing their own historic documents from Pope Boniface VIII to the first Vatican Council and any council in between (Florence comes to mind) - they simply complain that bringing up these RC documents casts a bad light on the church so they should not be quoted.

What is worse is that the criticism Curtis got on his source - was for a quote that actually IS in line with RC doctrine as the historic documents quoted previously show. Why pick THAT to complain about?

It is unclear to me that such a complaint is a compelling argument in favor of the RCC.

IN Christ,

Bob

[ November 25, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Getting back to the original question

IMHO Jerusalem is Babylon,

Back in July I met a young Catholic scholar, Mike Barber?sp? from Carson's school. Who is supposed to come out with a book providing line by line discussion on the Book of Revelation. So I wont try to repeat his work here but the amount of scripture pointing to Jerusalem as Babylon is overwhelming.

For any city to be Babylon it must fit all that scripture reveals about Babylon, For example as it relates to the Blood of the prophets.

REVELATION ON BABYLON

Revelation 17:5-6
"On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, ‘Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.’ I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the holy ones and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her I was greatly amazed."

Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and holy ones and all who have been slain on the earth."

JESUS ON JERUSALEM AS RECORDED IN LUKE AND MATTHEW

Luke 11:47-51

"Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. Therefore, the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill(future tense) and persecute’ in order that THIS GENERATION MIGHT BE CHARGED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS SHED SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. YES I TELL YOU THIS GENERATION WILL BE CHARGED WITH THEIR BLOOD.”

Luke 13:31-34

"At that time some Pharisees came to him and said, ‘Go away, leave this area because Herod wants to kill you.’ … Yet I must continue on my way today, tomorrow, and the following day, FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT A PROPHET SHOULD DIE OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM.’ ‘JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM YOU WHO KILL THE PROPHETS and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling !’

Matthew 23:29-36;

" ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, "If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood." Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out ! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna ? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill(FUTURE TENSE) and crucify, some of them you will scourge(FUTURE TENSE) in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.’ "

God Bless

Dennis