Reverend?

[preacher4truth]

Please consider the following scripture:



The word reverend here clearly refers to the Lord.

Should we use the word reverend when referring to a minister?

After looking at the word definition, and its relation to the LORD, I feel it is better to not accept, covet, nor use this title for a slave/servant of Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

As John of Japan correctly stated the modern definition of the word reverend is different that the Hebrew. But, if you look at the entomology of reverend you see that it comes for the word reverence.

Thanks for the agreement. :thumbsup:

To answer your question. I guess that my problem with using reverend is that a pastor is supposed to be a shepherd or keeper of the flock, not one to be feared or held in awe. See the entomology below of the word reverend and reverence below.

I got busy with my software and noticed that the Hebrew word yare' in Ps. 111:9 is also used of things other than God. It actually has a wide range of meaning:
1. We are to revere (NKJV) our parents in Lev. 19:3.
2. We are to reverence God's sanctuary in Lev. 19:30.
3. It's the word often translated "fear" in the OT, whether of man or God.

reverend
early 15c., "worthy of respect," from M.Fr. reverend, from L. reverendus "(he who is) to be respected," gerundive of revereri (see reverence). As a form of address for clergymen, it is attested from late 15c.; earlier reverent (late 14c. in this sense). Abbreviation Rev. is attested from 1721, earlier Revd. (1690s). Very Reverend is used of deans, Right Reverend of bishops, Most Reverend of archbishops.
reverent
late 15c., from L. reverentem, prp. of revereri (see reverence). From 14c. through 17c., commonly also used for reverend (adj.). Related: Reverently.
reverence
late 13c., from O.Fr. reverence, from L. reverentia "awe, respect," from revereri "to revere," from re-, intensive prefix, + vereri "stand in awe of, fear," from PIE *wer- "to be or become aware of" (cf. O.E. wær "aware, cautious;" see wary). The verb is first attested c.1300
Source for entomology http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=reverend&searchmode=none

Alas, attributing a present day meaning to the word's etymology is called the root fallacy in linguistics. Words change meaning over the years and often do not retain the meaning of the original usage.

Having said that, I note that my English dictionary definition has one meaning of "deserving reverence," I think it was. Well, I believe that when I show honor to a pastor by showing respect, I am simply respecting the office that God created.

I agree with HAMel where he wrote:

You can't demand respect you have to earn it.

I agree with this to a certain extent. The pastor as a person must earn respect. However, as I said above, we should honor the office God created (1 Tim. 5:17). This does not mean the pastor can be a dictator, of course. I believe the pastor is to be a servant of the flock (Luke 22:26).

Just one more point that I think does go along with the OP. I believe the pastor should never insist upon being called anything, or even ask the people to call him by a particular title. This is based on Matt. 23:8-11, where Christ warned the disciples not to be called rabbi, father or master. So my flock simply calls me "Himes San" (Mr. Himes), and I've never asked them for anything else.

 

[David Lamb]

I can imagine that most pastors have been called a whole lot worse than "Reverend". :tongue3:

Personally, I don't support the title "Reverend" as to me it's someone who desires respect from all others. I have the same problem with a man who is a Preacher/Pastor referred to as Doctor John Doe, Pastor. Is he a Doctor or a Pastor?

And then comes the Reverend, Doctor John Doe, Pastor, First Self-Righteous Baptist Church, or some other nonsense of a title. Does a Preacher "Doctor" a church or "Pastor" a church?

I wrote to the Sword of the Lord a few years back asking why all their printed sermons were from Doctors. Didn't they have any pastors? Talk about upsetting the Apple Cart. Wow!!!

Ever listen to Brother Mayes (Spelling) on the Radio? The Truck Drivers Special? That man knew how to preach and to get people excited for the Lord. I'm sure he's passed away by now.

Surely that's a one of the many problems of the English language (whether British, American, New Zealand or Australian versions. ) We are so used to calling our medical practitioners Doctor So-and-So, that we tend to forget that a doctorate is a post-graduate degree, of any subject, not just medicine. There are, I am sure, pastors who, like Martyn Lloyd-Jones, have a doctorate in medicine, but it's surely more likely that a Pastor who has the title "Doctor" would have the degree "Doctor of Divinity" or "Doctor of Theology".

 

[JohnDeereFan]

We call our pastor brother Mike or just Mike (and he is a Dr). He won't preach from the stage or whatever you call it. He preaches down on the floor where the pews are because he doesn't like the idea of looking down at us. He says he's just one of us and should never be put on a pedestal.

I'm not sure I follow his logic. What, specifically, does he feel is wrong with speaking from a pulpit?

"Hey, Brother Jeff, explain this Scripture to me..., rather than, uh, Reverend Doctor Jeff Oldunionbrother, Sir, may I schedule an appointment so you can explain this Scripture to me?"

Is it bad to make an appointment to speak with somebody?

 

[annsni]

I know that in correspondence and stuff, my husband is Rev. Robert Lastname but everyone either calls him Bob or Pastor Bob. So it's just an official address like Mr. would be.

 

[HAMel]

Is it bad to make an appointment to speak with somebody?

You are contrary aren't you? No, nothing wrong with it at all but a Pastor would probably respond with something like, "Yes indeed".

A Revered Reverend Doctor on the other hand might request you make an appointment with his Secretary.

Are you aware of anyone who had to make an appointment with the Lord Jesus? As I understand it any of us can call out to Him at any time..., night or day.

 

[mandym]

As John of Japan correctly stated the modern definition of the word reverend is different that the Hebrew.

Which makes all the difference in the world.

But, if you look at the entomology of reverend you see that it comes for the word reverence.

But it is used in this sense with a lesser value.

To answer your question. I guess that my problem with using reverend is that a pastor is supposed to be a shepherd or keeper of the flock, not one to be feared or held in awe. See the entomology below of the word reverend and reverence below.

It is a mistake to give them equivalence based on a root word. D. A Carson refers to this as the root word fallacy.

You can't demand respect you have to earn it.

It is in error to assume anyone is demanding respect. I do not like the word. People just call me preacher. But terms like preacher, pastor etc are all equivalent to reverend. It is about preference more than anything.

 

[matt wade]

Reverend is not a proper way to address any man. It's only use in the Bible is referring to God Himself.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm not sure I follow his logic. What, specifically, does he feel is wrong with speaking from a pulpit?

I never said he felt it was wrong. It's his personal preference. He feels he is one of us, just another servant in the body of Christ. He has never criticized anyone for doing it differently.

 

[Jim1999]

Methinks we get hung up at times on words and make a moehill out of nothing. In England a medical doctor did not have a medical doctorate. Have another look at the medical degree! We called our medical practitioners, "Mr." It was an insult to call him "doctor". The doctoral degree was originally in other professional categories and not medicine.

Further, the official full and proper address for the clergy was; The Reverend Mr. John Doe, and he was addressed as the pastor of a church. It was made simpler to use Rev'd John Doe.

To satisfy some of the simpletons, maybe we should just use our Canadian designated number, the same number we apply to official documents, such as married, death and even birth certificates.

Personally, my name has always been Jim.....then, in England, it was improper to address a man by his first name until he gave you permission to do so.

The fact remains, my post office directs my mail to me whether I am addressed as Rev., Dr., Mr., or even just Jim.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[drfuss]

It is interesting that none of the previous posts here have included what the scripture says about addressing another Christian by an elvated title. Elevated titles would include: Reverend, Pastor, Father, Master, Teacher, etc.
Note that is says do not directly address any other Christian with any elevated title; however, it does not prohibit using elevated titles in talking about them to someone else, i.e. the Apostle Paul, Pastor Joe, Pastor Smith, etc.

Matt 23:8-10:
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Is it bad to make an appointment to speak with somebody?

You are contrary aren't you? No, nothing wrong with it at all but a Pastor would probably respond with something like, "Yes indeed".

I'm a pastor and there are many times I appreciate it when people make an appointment or call ahead. There are times when I'm available to drop what I'm doing and talk and there are times when I'm not. Anybody who knows me knows that I love to talk, whether it's just shooting the breeze making small talk, or talking about serious things. But just because I like to do it doesn't mean that it's always possible for me to do it right at that moment. There are times when I simply have to say, "Hey, that's a great question and I want to talk with you some more about that, but I've got to get back to you. When would be a convenient time for you to talk about this?" It's always nice when people show me the courtesy of recognizing that I'm in the middle of something. It's also nice when they show the humility of understanding that the world doesn't stop for them and that there may be times when they have to wait in line.

We have 340 people in our church. Are we supposed to see them all at once? If somebody comes to me while I'm counselling someone and wants to talk, should I just end the counselling session to talk with them? If I'm sitting down to supper with my family (which the Bible says is my first priority, even before the church) and somebody calls me wanting to know the difference between predestination and predeterminism, is it really that big a crime to ask them to call me back at a specific time when I'm free to talk?

What other areas of life does this apply to? Can I just walk into my doctor's office without an aapointment and demand that he send his other patients home so he can see me on the spur of the moment?

Just because it's church doesn't mean that good manners and common sense don't apply.

 

[annsni]

It is interesting that none of the previous posts here have included what the scripture says about addressing another Christian by an elvated title. Elevated titles would include: Reverend, Pastor, Father, Master, Teacher, etc.
Note that is says do not directly address any other Christian with any elevated title; however, it does not prohibit using elevated titles in talking about them to someone else, i.e. the Apostle Paul, Pastor Joe, Pastor Smith, etc.

Matt 23:8-10:
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

We are not using "elevated titles" but instead titles of respect. When one is called "Reverend", we are not elevating them to anything but their job. Just as I would use Mr. or Miss or Mrs. or Doctor or sir or ma'am. There is nothing wrong with using the term Reverend Smith - even according to Scripture.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I never said he felt it was wrong. It's his personal preference. He feels he is one of us, just another servant in the body of Christ. He has never criticized anyone for doing it differently.

What I mean is, why does he feel that he is not "one of you" by preaching from a pulpit?

 

[matt wade]

We are not using "elevated titles" but instead titles of respect. When one is called "Reverend", we are not elevating them to anything but their job. Just as I would use Mr. or Miss or Mrs. or Doctor or sir or ma'am. There is nothing wrong with using the term Reverend Smith - even according to Scripture.

Where does Scripture tell us nothing is wrong with it?

 

[drfuss]

We are not using "elevated titles" but instead titles of respect. When one is called "Reverend", we are not elevating them to anything but their job. Just as I would use Mr. or Miss or Mrs. or Doctor or sir or ma'am. There is nothing wrong with using the term Reverend Smith - even according to Scripture.

IF Rabbi, Master, and Teacher are not titles of respect, then what are they?

I know the church has violated this scripture over and over again, and this is encouraged by many Pastors. But the scripture is the scripture, which has been violated for many years. I suspect that those that wish to be addressed by an elevated title, can come up with an innovative interpretation to explain away what it says..

I am thankful that my Pastor refers to himself by his first name and incourages people to call him by his first name. I never discussed it with him, but I suspect that this scripture is the reason.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I am thinkful that my Pastor refers to himself by his first name and incourages people to call him by his first name. I never discussed it with him, but I suspect that this scripture is the reason.

What do you think calling your pastor by his first name says about your view of his authority or the importance of the task of preaching God's Word and shepherding the flock God has entrusted to him?

Doesn't calling someone by their first name imply an informal and casual relationship?

 

[annsni]

Where does Scripture tell us nothing is wrong with it?

No, what I meant is that there is nothing in Scripture that says it's wrong to use terms of respect.

 

[webdog]

Scripture uses Bishop, Overseer, Elder and shepherd to describe a pastor...where does it ever use Reverend?

 

[Jerome]

I am thinkful that my Pastor refers to himself by his first name

So does Elmo on Sesame Street.

Other famous Illeists.