Review of Free Will 2

[37818]

Election took place from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4. The sanctification by God’s Spirit is proof, confirmation of that election.

God in foreknowing those of us who are saved has no beginning. Our knowing God has a beginning for us. Without the sanctification of the Spirit it would not have happened.

 

[Reformed]

God in foreknowing those of us who are saved has no beginning. Our knowing God has a beginning for us.

Of course, God foreknew those who would be saved, but that is not what Ephesians 1:4 says. It says:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God did not just foreknow His elect (Rom. 8:29), He chose them before the foundation of the world. God's choosing was a purposeful act that was not based on any future action on the part of the one chosen. Yes. Election plays out in time for the one being chosen, but God is not constrained by time. The Alpha and the Omega operates in and outside of time. It is a small thing for God to choose before creation those who will inherit eternal life, and then let the actual calling and saving take place at a future point in time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God in foreknowing those of us who are saved has no beginning. Our knowing God has a beginning for us. Without the sanctification of the Spirit it would not have happened.

You have the wrong definition of God's foreknowledge. Try again later.

 

[37818]

You have the wrong definition of God's foreknowledge. Try again later.

Really? Give the correct definition.

God is absolutely omniscient of all things. God foreknows His. before time. We ourselves do not become His until in time we know Him (John 17;3).

 

[37818]

Of course, God foreknew those who would be saved, but that is not what Ephesians 1:4 says. It says:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God did not just foreknow His elect (Rom. 8:29), He chose them before the foundation of the world. God's choosing was a purposeful act that was not based on any future action on the part of the one chosen. Yes. Election plays out in time for the one being chosen, but God is not constrained by time. The Alpha and the Omega operates in and outside of time. It is a small thing for God to choose before creation those who will inherit eternal life, and then let the actual calling and saving take place at a future point in time.

". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . ." (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

 

[Reformed]

". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . ." (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

OK. What is your point? God has chosen His elect before the foundation of the world. That has already been proven from verses shared earlier. God calls and saves His elect in time. That point has already made as well. How does God call His elect? By the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and faith in the preaching of the Gospel. The Greek word for sanctification is ἁγιασμῷ (hagiasmo). It is the noun form of the word for holy or set apart. Since hagiasmo is in the middle voice, it is the Holy Spirit that makes one holy.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Really? Give the correct definition.

God is absolutely omniscient of all things. God foreknows His. before time. We ourselves do not become His until in time we know Him (John 17;3).

God does not foreknow as you say He does. You say He sees those who will have faith and those who don't have faith, and in this foreknowledge, He elected those He foresaw having faith. That's not the biblical definition of foreknowledge.

First all, no one dead in their sins has faith. Faith is a gift of God, per Ephesians 2:8-9. It is also a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22. No one lost has a fruit of the Spirit. Also, we are justified by faith, per Romans 5:1.

God did not foresee any fallen person having faith, when none had it. Foreknowledge is a verb in the Greek, so God's foreknowledge is not merely knowing something, but actually doing something. Whom He foreknew, not what He foreknew. He foreknows ppl, not their actions.

 

[JonShaff]

Election took place from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4. The sanctification by God’s Spirit is proof, confirmation of that election.

It says that we are chosen in Him (does not say *election* took place) to be Holy, and Blameless before Him. A simple reading of the Passage Says that God Chose Christ before the Foundation of the World to make sinners Holy and Blameless.

Christ is the Elect One before the foundations of the World

Christ is the Elect One of Abraham's Seed.

Both Pharisees and Calvinists misunderstand the nature of election.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It says that we are chosen in Him (does not say *election* took place) to be Holy, and Blameless before Him. A simple reading of the Passage Says that God Chose Christ before the Foundation of the World to make sinners Holy and Blameless.

Christ is the Elect One before the foundations of the World

Christ is the Elect One of Abraham's Seed.

Both Pharisees and Calvinists misunderstand the nature of election.

Boy, you sure missed your calling as a stand-up comedian, because this is hilarious. When the plain reading is against what you want it to say, change the meaning. Youse guise do this all the time.

Boy, that post is rich! Hilarious!

 

[SovereignGrace]

It says that we are chosen in Him (does not say *election* took place) to be Holy, and Blameless before Him. A simple reading of the Passage Says that God Chose Christ before the Foundation of the World to make sinners Holy and Blameless.

Christ is the Elect One before the foundations of the World

Christ is the Elect One of Abraham's Seed.

Both Pharisees and Calvinists misunderstand the nature of election.

eklektoß

Eklektos

==picked out, chosen
==chosen by God,
==to obtain salvation through Christ
==Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

1. the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
2. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Eklektos - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[1689Dave]

I believe the core issue comes down to offering the gospel instead of preaching the gospel. Offering salvation needs a response from the hearer to activate it. The Catholics made the response terminate on the sacraments. As did the Lutherans and Reformed to an extent. And today Evangelicals do the same "Billy Graham" style. The sacrament is choosing to believe and "going forward". And the will is perfectly free, as sinful and incapacitated as it might be, to do any of this.

But the gospel preached is an entirely different story. It simply announces after providing certain details, whosoever believes has eternal life. And in understanding how wicked and incapacitated the flesh is by sin, we understand that only the born again can appreciate and respond to this simple message. In this understanding, belief is not a choice. It comes from experiencing the new birth that happens before, during or after hearing the gospel message. But nonetheless, belief is not a choice, it is a reaction to the new birth, when it happens.

Those who choose to believe however must already believe because of the new birth, before they choose to believe, or they wouldn't choose to believe.

 

[37818]

From the recently closed thread on Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will.


How do we turn when we are inextricably bound? We are set free from sin and thus enabled to believe, turn, and obey. God does that by removing your cold, dead, heart of unbelief and replacing it with a warm, living, heart of faith.

Think for a moment on the illustration Christ uses to shed light on this subject. He told Nicodemus "You must be born again."

What did you do that resulted in your being born? Nothing? Exactly.

And what did you do that resulted in your being born again? Nothing? Exactly.

This is a very simple subject, but to understand it you have to do something this is very difficult for people to do. You have to lay aside the idea that you are good enough to do something to merit your salvation. It flies in the face of our "self-esteem." It flies in the face of our pride. It flies in the face of our insistence that we are somehow better than the lost because we were able to do something to merit salvation and those poor lost people could not. "I thank God I am not as other men . . . " (Luke 18:11).

Here is the bottom line: Assuming one could decide one wants to be born again, one could do so until one dies, and that in no way can or would cause one to be born over. So unless God gives one this new birth it is not going to happen.

 

[JonShaff]

eklektoß

Eklektos

==picked out, chosen
==chosen by God,
==to obtain salvation through Christ
==Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

1. the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
2. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Eklektos - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Great, except that's not what Ephesians 1:4 says...





And i still stand by what i said in my post...

It says that we are chosen in Him (does not say *election* took place) to be Holy, and Blameless before Him. A simple reading of the Passage Says that God Chose Christ before the Foundation of the World to make sinners Holy and Blameless.

Christ is the Elect One before the foundations of the World

Christ is the Elect One of Abraham's Seed.

Both Pharisees and Calvinists misunderstand the nature of election.

 

[Reformed]

So unless God gives one this new birth it is not going to happen.

Welcome to the Monergist position!

 

[robycop3]

I don't believe God made anyone for the purpose of just sending them to hell with no chance for salvation. That would make a mockery of Jesus' suffering & death.

And Peter, who, like Paul, had a 'hotline' to Jesus, wrote, in 2 Peter 3:5," The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

In other words, He gives EVERYONE the chance tobe saved. Peter didn't just make that verse up.

And we see, in Jesus' dealings with Iscariot that He have him the chance to repent when He made it clear to Judah that He knew of his plan to betray Him by saying He would be betrayed, & it'd be better for His betrayer if he'd never been born. And He even told Judas, "Go quickly to do what you must do".

Had Judas repented then, someone else woulda betrayed Jesus to fulfill prophecy. But Jesus, knowing Iscariot's mind was made up, still wanted to be fair & let him know the coming betrayal was known to Jesus. Yes, Judas COULD have repented, since the deed wasn't yet done!

Can't speak for anyone else, but I heard the word of God often enough for years til I finally BELIEVED it!

 

[Rockson]

Exactly! Nothing. Nothing at all.

This is a way to answer a point? I said the physically born don't have to do anything. They're not called to believe in order to be born. Spiritually reborn people are! Sometimes I think you just put down words having no meaning in particular to make it appear that you addressed an issue.

You have it just backward. Until you are born again you cannot see, perceive, or even know of the Kingdom of God. Believing is the RESULT of regeneration. There is no such thing as an "unbelieving believer."

See in the greek also means "experience" ὁράω. Unless one is born again they cannot "experience" the Kingdom of God" Such doesn't mean you can't know from a mental standpoint certain things about it. Didn't you read where Jesus pretty much reproves Nicodemus for not having even the vaguest notion about what he meant?

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? John 3:9

Point...You can know and basically understand God's plan without being born again to do so.

 

[TCassidy]

I said the physically born don't have to do anything.

Exactly!

They're not called to believe in order to be born.

Exactly.

Spiritually reborn people are!

Yes! Now you've got it! Those who are ALREADY Spiritually reborn and THEN called to believe!

Sometimes I think you just put down words having no meaning in particular to make it appear that you addressed an issue.

I am sorry you didn't understand. Tell me which words you didn't understand and I will explain them to you.

Didn't you read where Jesus pretty much reproves Nicodemus for not having even the vaguest notion about what he meant?

Yes. And He explains to Nicodemus WHY he didn't have the vaguest notion. He had to be born again FIRST in order to understand. Jesus said so!

You can know and basically understand God's plan without being born again to do so.

So you think 1 Cor 2:14 is wrong? "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And you also deny Romans 8:7? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[InTheLight]

So you think 1 Cor 2:14 is wrong? "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Does the natural man know that Christians believe in the Resurrection?
That Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
That Jesus was crucified on a cross?
Are there LITERALLY millions of unregenerate people going to churches and learning and knowing things about God.

Obviously, yes there are people that KNOW these things about God. So your interpretation of this verse is obviously faulty.

 

[TCassidy]

It says that we are chosen in Him (does not say *election* took place) to be Holy, and Blameless before Him. A simple reading of the Passage Says that God Chose Christ before the Foundation of the World to make sinners Holy and Blameless.

Uh, you may want to read that verse again.

καθως εξελεξατο ημας εν αυτω προ καταβολης κοσμου ειναι ημας αγιους και αμωμους κατενωπιον αυτου εν αγαπη.

Pay close attention to that word εξελεξατο. You do understand, I am sure, that the word is a compound from "εκ" meaning "out" and "λεγο" meaning to "call." Note also it is a verb in the middle voice. Note also the word Paul uses for "us" - ημας. The word “us” here shows that the apostle had reference to individuals, and not to communities. Not the Jews. Not the Church. Individuals.

Now, why is it important that the word εξελεξατο is in the middle voice? Simple. We were elected, chosen, individually, in Him, for Himself. We were elected by Him, in Him, for Himself.

 

[TCassidy]

Obviously, yes there are people that KNOW these things about God. So your interpretation of this verse is obviously faulty.

And once again you display this remarkable inability to discern the difference between the physical and the spiritual.