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Revisiting Isaiah 7:14

reformed_baptist

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Quote from Rob: "It's my suspicion that this verse has caused so much controversy in the past that translators are catering to the public."



If your statement wasn't an ad homenem, you were stepping on the line. ;)



I've tried to clearly lay out the evidence from which I've drawn a conclusion - rather than attacking a characteristic or attribute and drawn conclusions based on that.

So no, my suspicion was not an ad-hom attack.

Rob

So, in your estimation, my comments about motives that some theistic evolutionists might possibly be biased towards reading things in a certain way is not acceptable, but your suspicion that translators are catering to the public is acceptable - I'm sorry sir, but that smacks of double of standards in my opinion ;)
 

McCree79

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If you considered my statements Ad-hom then isn't this also Ad-hom :)

However that isn't my real reason for posting - this is what I really want to add:

"On the assumption that the Bible is the best evidence for the meaning of its words, we note that bĕtûlâ occurs fifty times. Of these, twelve are metaphorical (e.g. 37:22) and fourteen are general, where (e.g. Ps. 148:12) ‘young men and maidens’ is equivalent to ‘young people’ and there is no more ground for demanding that the ‘maidens’ are unmarried than that the men in question (bāḥûrîm) must be bachelors. There are twenty-one cases (such as Exod. 22:16; Deut. 22:19) where the bĕtûlâ in question would be, or be assumed to be, a virgin, but the requirement is in the context, not in the word itself. The idea is ‘of marriageable age/ready for marriage’.

By contrast ‘almâ is found only eight other times. Of these, 1 Chronicles 15:20 and Psalm 46 (title) use the word in a musical direction that is no longer surely understood. Three further references are indeterminate. It is hard to see that the tambourine-girls (Ps. 68:25) would have to be specified as unmarried; in Proverbs 30:19 many commentators hold that the reference is to the mysteries of procreation, though it more reasonably suggests the often much less explicable matter of sexual attraction! Song 1:3 is more likely to mean ‘unmarried girls’ looking for a good match than the longing gaze of ‘young married women’! But Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8 and Song 6:8 refer unquestionably to unmarried girls. Genesis 24 is particularly important as bringing ‘almâ and bĕtûlâ together. Abraham’s servant prays (24:14) for a ‘girl’ (na‘ărâ) to marry Isaac; the approaching Rebekah (24:16) is described as female (na‘ărâ), of marriageable age (bĕtûlâ) and single (‘no man had ever lain with her’). It is important to note that bĕtûlâ is not sufficient by itself to denote virginity but needs the explanatory qualification (‘no man …’). Finally (24:43), in the light of the knowledge of Rebekah that he has thus accumulated, the servant describes her as ‘almâ—i.e. female, marriageable and unmarried.

In the light of this there is no ground for saying that ‘almâ must mean ‘young woman’ and that bĕtûlâ is the technical word for ‘virgin’. Rather, to the contrary: Isaiah used the word which, among those available to him, came nearest to expressing ‘virgin birth’ and which, in the event, with linguistic propriety, accommodated that meaning. It is also worth noting that outside the Bible, ‘so far as may be ascertained’, ‘almâ is ‘never used of a married woman’." [Motyer, J. A. (1999). Isaiah: an introduction and commentary (Vol. 20, pp. 90–91). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.]
So do you feel that there was not an initial fulfilment in Isaiah's day, or is there a "virgin" birth that took place in Isaiahs day?

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reformed_baptist

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So do you feel that there was not an initial fulfilment in Isaiah's day, or is there a "virgin" birth that took place in Isaiahs day?

I don't rule out an initial fulfillment in Isaiah's day (most probably his own son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz) but in the light of the NT I don't see it as terribly important either way, Matt 1:23 guides us as to the primary prophecy of this text and I think that is where our focus should lay - any speculation beyond that, is just speculation! if there was a fulfillment in Isaiah day that is not clearly recorded in scripture.
 

rlvaughn

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Hebrew generally uses three-letter words and adds to them to form related words, in Isa 54:4 the words, 'youth' and 'widowhood' are related to 'almah.
Right, related, though Walton gives the impression it is 'almah when he says, "Isa 54:4 demonstrates that an 'alma could be married and barren." I don't think that is a "that follows" conclusion, and that Walton may be exhibiting what D. A. Carson calls the "root fallacy".

It's my suspicion that this verse has caused so much controversy in the past that translators are catering to the public.
I can live with that suspicion. The proliferation of Bibles in our modern era demonstrates that there is some "catering to the public" (and perhaps the bottom line, as well) going on. With that suspicion, though, we have to take the suspicion on the other side of the coin -- that some translators and commentators are catering to something else (for example, liberal scholarship). I see no reason to suspect all catering is one-sided.

It is interesting to go back to the earliest English Bibles. I haven't checked every one, but the 1395 Wycliffe Bible, 1535 Coverdale, 1541 Great Bible, 1568 Bishops Bible and 1560 Geneva Bible consistently render it "the/a virgin shall conceive and bear a son" (spelling modernized). There may be issues to bring up re their translations, but probably not the modern concept of catering to the public.

That and the idea that there is just not a suitable English word to distinguish the term.

The term ‘almāh (“maiden”) has in the past evoked much controversy, initially because of its translation in Greek by the LXX as parthénos (“virgin”), and its subsequent role in Matt. 1:23. The noun is derived, not from the root “to be concealed” as suggested already by Jerome, but from a homonym, meaning “to be full of vigor,” “to have reached the age of puberty.” Thus the noun refers to a female sexually ripe for marriage. The emphasis does not fall on virginity as such and, in this respect, differs from the Hebrew betûlāh. However, apart from the controversial reference in Prov. 30:19, the women in all the other references to an ‘almāh do actually appear to be virgins (e.g., Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; Ps. 68:26). It is very unlikely that a married woman would still be referred to as an ‘almāh. In sum, the English translation of the Hebrew by the AV as “virgin” is misleading in too narrowly focusing on virginity rather than on sexual maturity. Conversely, the preferred modern translation of “young woman” (NRSV) is too broad a rendering since it wrongly includes young wives.
Brevard S. Childs, Isaiah: A Commentary, ed. William P. Brown, Carol A. Newsom, and Brent A. Strawn, 1st ed., The Old Testament Library (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2001), 66.​
While we can say that there is not "a word" to distinguish ‘almâ in English (with which I don't agree), those who don't think there is "a word" would be free to translate it with several words that express it correctly as they see it, such as "unmarried young woman" or something like that.

There is no dispute that Matthew clearly identifies Jesus' conception as immaculate.
Agreed, and I did not mean to suggest you were disputing that. Just putting clearly on the table where I'm coming from.

"On the assumption that the Bible is the best evidence for the meaning of its words, we note that bĕtûlâ occurs fifty times. Of these, twelve are metaphorical (e.g. 37:22) and fourteen are general, where (e.g. Ps. 148:12) ‘young men and maidens’ is equivalent to ‘young people’ and there is no more ground for demanding that the ‘maidens’ are unmarried than that the men in question (bāḥûrîm) must be bachelors. There are twenty-one cases (such as Exod. 22:16; Deut. 22:19) where the bĕtûlâ in question would be, or be assumed to be, a virgin, but the requirement is in the context, not in the word itself. The idea is ‘of marriageable age/ready for marriage’.

By contrast ‘almâ is found only eight other times. Of these, 1 Chronicles 15:20 and Psalm 46 (title) use the word in a musical direction that is no longer surely understood. Three further references are indeterminate. It is hard to see that the tambourine-girls (Ps. 68:25) would have to be specified as unmarried; in Proverbs 30:19 many commentators hold that the reference is to the mysteries of procreation, though it more reasonably suggests the often much less explicable matter of sexual attraction! Song 1:3 is more likely to mean ‘unmarried girls’ looking for a good match than the longing gaze of ‘young married women’! But Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8 and Song 6:8 refer unquestionably to unmarried girls. Genesis 24 is particularly important as bringing ‘almâ and bĕtûlâ together. Abraham’s servant prays (24:14) for a ‘girl’ (na‘ărâ) to marry Isaac; the approaching Rebekah (24:16) is described as female (na‘ărâ), of marriageable age (bĕtûlâ) and single (‘no man had ever lain with her’). It is important to note that bĕtûlâ is not sufficient by itself to denote virginity but needs the explanatory qualification (‘no man …’). Finally (24:43), in the light of the knowledge of Rebekah that he has thus accumulated, the servant describes her as ‘almâ—i.e. female, marriageable and unmarried.

In the light of this there is no ground for saying that ‘almâ must mean ‘young woman’ and that bĕtûlâ is the technical word for ‘virgin’. Rather, to the contrary: Isaiah used the word which, among those available to him, came nearest to expressing ‘virgin birth’ and which, in the event, with linguistic propriety, accommodated that meaning. It is also worth noting that outside the Bible, ‘so far as may be ascertained’, ‘almâ is ‘never used of a married woman’." [Motyer, J. A. (1999). Isaiah: an introduction and commentary (Vol. 20, pp. 90–91). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.]
Thanks for quoting Motyer. I had thought about doing so, but didn't seem to have the energy to type it up! I will add a brief statement from page 85. "...wherever the context [in the Bible, rlv] allows a judgment, ‘almâ is not a general term meaning 'young woman' but a specific one meaning 'virgin'."

I don't rule out an initial fulfillment in Isaiah's day (most probably his own son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz) but in the light of the NT I don't see it as terribly important either way, Matt 1:23 guides us as to the primary prophecy of this text and I think that is where our focus should lay - any speculation beyond that, is just speculation! if there was a fulfillment in Isaiah day that is not clearly recorded in scripture.
This pretty well sums it up for me as well. There seems there should be/could be a fulfillment of some kind in Isaiah's day, but the primary interpretation of the text is fixed by the New Testament.
 

Deacon

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Charles Feinberg has also commanded my deep respect
He too has written on this passage, with the same conclusion.

THE VIRGIN BIRTH AND ISAIAH 7:14 [LInk]

Abstract:

Isaiah 7:14 continues to be one of the most debated texts in the Bible. After surveying various scholarly opinions, two key Hebrew words, ʻalmâ (young woman) and betûlâ (maiden) are discussed as to the immediate historical and prophetic intent of Isaiah. After also consulting the LXX version and Matthew’s use (1:23) of Isaiah 7:14, it is concluded that the passage is a signal and explicit prediction of the miraculous conception and nativity of Jesus Christ.​

Rob
 

McCree79

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I don't rule out an initial fulfillment in Isaiah's day (most probably his own son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz) but in the light of the NT I don't see it as terribly important either way, Matt 1:23 guides us as to the primary prophecy of this text and I think that is where our focus should lay - any speculation beyond that, is just speculation! if there was a fulfillment in Isaiah day that is not clearly recorded in scripture.
I have always struggled with an initial fulfillment here. I have spent many of hours trying to fit it together. Let me run this past you guys and gals. Is it possible that God was not speaking of a sign that Ahaz would see. Ahaz refuses to ask for a sign. God(v.13) then addresses the house of David. So is it possible that God was never speaking of a sign to Ahaz personally and was only speaking of a future sign.

Either way with "alma", Isaiah's wide would not qualify either as a young woman, maiden, nor virgin. Hezekiah has never seemed a good fit either.

I also have an issue with the idea of God making a prophecy and us not see the fulfillment that came from it. One could then argue perhaps it was unfulfilled. It seems the best way to go is with a single fulfillment(Mary/Jesus).

If someone brought this up already I apologize. I have not read the entire thread thoroughly. I just skimmed it and possible I missed it.

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rlvaughn

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I have always struggled with an initial fulfillment here. I have spent many of hours trying to fit it together. Let me run this past you guys and gals. Is it possible that God was not speaking of a sign that Ahaz would see. Ahaz refuses to ask for a sign. God(v.13) then addresses the house of David. So is it possible that God was never speaking of a sign to Ahaz personally and was only speaking of a future sign.
Isaiah changes from singular to plural, which can be noted with the "thee" and "you" in the KJV.

11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

There are different opinions of the meaning of the change in number, but the change is there. I take it as the sign of the virgin being a future sign to the whole house of David and not to Ahaz.

Either way with "alma", Isaiah's wife would not qualify either as a young woman, maiden, nor virgin. Hezekiah has never seemed a good fit either.
Haven't looked at the timeline recently, but I think a study of it will suggest Hezekiah was already born at the time the prophecy was given.
 

Deacon

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A great site to see the singular and plural 'you'se' is the Ya'll Version [LINK]

Isaiah 7:10-14 NASB Ya’ll Version

Then the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; make the request deep or high make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!” Then he said, “Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for y’all to try the patience of men, that y’all will try the patience of my God as well? Therefore the Lord Himself will give y’all a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.​

Rob
 

Deacon

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I began this tread since I’d been studying the passage in preparation to teaching Matthew in the Adult Bible Study at our church in the not-so-distant future.

This is a basic outline of my conclusions regarding the fulfillment passages in chapter 1 and 2 of Matthew.

Concerning the first prophecy, that of Isaiah 7:14 found in Matthew 1:23:

  • Since the problem presented in Isaiah concerned an immediate threat, the fulfillment (IMO) should concern its resolution
  • The Lord demanded a faith commitment from the House of David (plural); ‘if you don’t amen, you will not be amen’ed’ (7:9)
  • Chapter 7’s oracle reveals the Lord’s judgement upon Judah’s enemies and a promise of peace (God with us)
  • Chapter 8’s oracle reveals the Lord’s judgement upon a faithless Judah (vs 5-8)
  • In the same way God offered salvation to the House of David in Ahaz’ time, so he offered in Jesus time, through faith.
  • The five OT prophecies that Matthew uses don’t always appear to be prophecies. A scholar today using scripture this way would be accused of mishandling the word of God.
  • But each of the five OT prophecies that Matthew uses have themes of faith and deal in some way with exile and restoration.
  • Ultimately we see the offer of salvation fulfilled through faith fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Rob
 

rlvaughn

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  • The five OT prophecies that Matthew uses don’t always appear to be prophecies. A scholar today using scripture this way would be accused of mishandling the word of God.
Which five prophecies are you referencing here? I realize one is Isaiah 7:14 and I think I remember your mentioning "Out of Egypt called my son" elsewhere. What are the others?

Thanks.
 

Deacon

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Working outline of Matthew

1. Introduction - Matthew 1:1
a. Generations – reminds Jews of heritage, beginnings
b. Children of Abraham and of David’s kingdom​

2. Genealogies
a. Observations: What things stand out?
i. Women mentioned (#5 – repeated special number)
ii. The number 14 is emphasized. Hebrew Gematria (David is written as daleth vav daleth = 4+6+4=14) Jesus is the successor to David’s throne​

3. Outline of Matthew
a. Five sections of narrative followed by discourse (Why would Matthew use the number five? - 5 books of Moses)
Preparation and Program of Ministry (Matt 3–7)
Authority of Jesus Established (Matt 8–10)
The Kingdom and Its Coming (Matt 11–13)
Life in the New Community (Matt 14–18)
Consummation of the Age (Matt 19–25)​
b. Who was the greatest leader/prophet of Israel? Deuteronomy 18:14-16 (>>New Moses)​

4. How does Matthew prove that Jesus was the New Moses?
a. Five key scripture parallels, Matthew calls them prophecies
Fulfillment #1 Virgin birth (Isa 7:14; Matt 1:22–23)
Fulfillment #2 Born in Bethlehem (Mic 5:2; Matt 2:5–6)
Fulfillment #3 Out of Egypt (Hos 11:1; Matt 2:15)
Fulfillment #4 Weeping Over “Children” (Jer 31:15; Matt 2:17–18)
Fulfillment #5 The “Nazarene” (Isa 11:1?; Judg 13:5?; Matt 2:23)
Craig A. Evans, NT314 Book Study: The Gospel of Matthew in Its Jewish Context, Logos Mobile Education (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2014).​
 
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rsr

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From looking at your outline you seem to be leaning toward what some scholars have described as a midrashic exegesis of the text as opposed to the traditional conservative grammatical-historical approach.

Martin Pickup has explored this theme (Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, June 2008, http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/51/51-2/JETS 51-2 353-381 Pickup.pdf) and contended that the exegetical framework used by the writers of the New Testament would have been readily understood by contemporaries.

... The simple truth is that when we analyze the intertestamental literature, the Qumran scrolls, the targums, and the rabbinic corpus, we find the same phenomenon of exegesis that we observe in the NT: the tendency to read OT statements in something other than their grammatical-historical sense.13 In my opinion, the problem with prior studies of the issue is that they have failed to fully appreciate the theological rationale of the midrashic method of exegesis that was assumed by Jews of late antiquity.

... Many people think of midrashic exegesis as just a fanciful way of making Scripture say whatever one wants it to say — which, if that were true, would make it a hermeneutic that undermined biblical inspiration and authority. But the irony here is that midrashic exegesis is actually dependent upon the verbal inspiration and inerrancy of the OT — a fact that even liberal scholars of midrashic literature have pointed out. Evangelical scholarship is actually in the best position to appreciate fully the theological rationale of this Jewish method of exegesis. ...

It should be noted, however, that the grammatical-historical approach does not require a belief in the divine inspiration of Scripture, for it is the same hermeneutic one would use to interpret any human document. ... But what if one regards the OT books as the ancient Jews did —as the verbally inspired word of God?20 How might this affect the way one reads an OT verse? If every word of the OT is truly the utterance of God, then a given statement in one OT book would need to be considered not only within its own documentary context, but also in light of the broader contexts of the canon as a whole. The reason is twofold. First, one recognizes that the OT canon is something more than just an anthology of religious documents. These writings are the work of one divine author, who foreordained in eternity a plan for the world that he revealed gradually over time, using human spokesmen throughout Israel’s history.

Michael Heiser has explicated something similar, but in less academic terms, at Were New Testament Writers Hermeneutical Hacks? | Dr. Michael Heiser.

(The New Testament writers) can’t be abusing a method that they never intended to use (his – and our – grammatical historical approach). That’s like criticizing your dog for not being a cat. Pointless. But understandable nonetheless. You basically have to say you know better than they did (in which case you have forfeited the coherence of the claim that you are evaluating them in context — in favor of doing so out of context).

Specifically referring to Hosea 11:11 ("out of Egypt I called my son"), Heiser contends that Matthew knew full well that the text was not strictly a prophecy in context.

Well, Matthew would have to be an inept reader to think that Hosea 11:1 looked forward. He wasn’t a doofus, so he wasn’t looking at it that way. But he knew the profile. Here are some obvious mosaic pieces that Matthew would have known (they are transparent from the text):

1. Messiah would be a descendant of David, who was a descendant of Abraham.
2. Descendants of Abraham were Israelites.
3. Israelites were referred to as God’s son (corporately) in the OT.
4. Israel was in bondage in Egypt.
5. God delivered Israel from Egypt.

All of this very obvious information was floating around in Matthew’s head when one day (we don’t know how, but I’m betting Mary told the story often enough) he heard about Jesus, whom he believed the [individual] son of God, had to flee to Egypt until God told his parents in a dream to bring him out of Egypt and back to Judea. And so the lights went on in Matthew’s head; he saw an amazing analogy. He decided it was one that was worth recording. It’s safe to say he believed God brought to his attention and that God had ordered the events of Jesus’ life in such as way as to have the analogy exist for him to see. That’s why he’d use a word like “fulfilled” – but not in the 1:1 correspondence way we imagine.

Sorry the post is so long, but I think it sheds some light on the use of almah vs. parthenos and why the NT writer felt free to specify parthenos, among other things.

(BTW: Walton's comment that parthenos doesn't necessarily mean virgin in classical Greek seems to me almost irrelevant since the LXX wasn't written in classical Greek. IMHO.)
 

Deacon

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From looking at your outline you seem to be leaning toward what some scholars have described as a midrashic exegesis of the text as opposed to the traditional conservative grammatical-historical approach.

In a post a while back I called myself an 'awkward inerrantist', chiefly due to what you've noted.
I've been following Michael Heiser from the beginning of his blogs on Biblical Inerrancy.
There are some issues that the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy did not address.
Michael Heiser and Peter Enns are highly educated scholars and have been able to separate themselves from denominational pressures enough (each in their own unique way) to confront these issues directly. They write in a clear enough manner that an modestly educated person can follow their reasoning.

Rob
 
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