Revival is...

[JesusFan]

As I said in my other post, Finney was a lousy theologian! But his books reveal a real dependence on the Holy Spirit for revival, though emotions would happen, of course. I don't think his writings would reveal that he depended on emotional response for revival.

His Reflections on Revival (Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship Inc., 1979) is good on this, and his Autobiography (the short version) also reveals his methods.

From the very lips of Mr Finney Himself

"But for sinners to be forensically pronounced just, is impossible and absurd... As we shall see, there are many conditions, while there is but one ground, of the justification of sinners ... As has already been said, there can be no justification in a legal or forensic sense, but upon the ground of universal, perfect, and uninterrupted obedience to law. This is of course denied by those who hold that gospel justification, or the justification of penitent sinners, is of the nature of a forensic or judicial justification. They hold to the legal maxim that what a man does by another he does by himself, and therefore the law regards Christ’s obedience as ours, on the ground that he obeyed for us."

To this, Finney replies: "The doctrine of imputed righteousness, or that Christ’s obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a most false and nonsensical assumption." After all, Christ’s righteousness "could do no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us ... it was naturally impossible, then, for him to obey in our behalf " This "representing of the atonement as the ground of the sinner’s justification has been a sad occasion of stumbling to many" (pp.320-2).

The view that faith is the sole condition of justification is "the antinomian view," Finney asserts. "We shall see that perseverance in obedience to the end of life is also a condition of justification. Some theologians have made justification a condition of sanctification, instead of making sanctification a condition of justification. But this we shall see is an erroneous view of the subject." (pp.326-7).

The Disturbing Legacy of Charles Finney | Monergism

by Michael HortonNo single man is more responsible for the distortion of Christian truth in our age than Charles Grandison Finney. His "new measures" created a

www.monergism.com

 

[canadyjd]

Great quite by Dr Sproul on his theology

"Finney's not a heretic, he's an Arch-heretic! He out Pelagianized Pelagius"!

Did he preach salvation by faith in Jesus Christ?

Heresy, imo, most frequently involves denial of the essentials of the faith…. Almost always concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ.

I don’t believe human will is “free”. But I don’t believe people are heretics if they don’t agree with me.

Let’s not hijack this thread, though.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Great quite by Dr Sproul on his theology

"Finney's not a heretic, he's an Arch-heretic! He out Pelagianized Pelagius"!

So you are going to a secondary source who is a Calvinist and thus opposed to Finney. At the time of Finney's revivals, many opposed them due to Funney's supposed emotionalism, which was a false charge. It's not good research to quote a secondary source like that.

 

[John of Japan]

From the very lips of Mr Finney Himself


To this, Finney replies: "The doctrine of imputed righteousness, or that Christ’s obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a most false and nonsensical assumption." After all, Christ’s righteousness "could do no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us ... it was naturally impossible, then, for him to obey in our behalf " This "representing of the atonement as the ground of the sinner’s justification has been a sad occasion of stumbling to many" (pp.320-2).

Huh? So do you actually believe that "Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience"? I certainly don't believe that. Christ did not "obey" the Law, He fulfilled it. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matt. 5:17).

The view that faith is the sole condition of justification is "the antinomian view," Finney asserts. "We shall see that perseverance in obedience to the end of life is also a condition of justification. Some theologians have made justification a condition of sanctification, instead of making sanctification a condition of justification. But this we shall see is an erroneous view of the subject." (pp.326-7).

The Disturbing Legacy of Charles Finney | Monergism

by Michael HortonNo single man is more responsible for the distortion of Christian truth in our age than Charles Grandison Finney. His "new measures" created a

www.monergism.com

I don't believe this makes Finney a heretic in the Bible sense. He actually drew churches together with his revivals. Churches who opposed Finney in those days opposed his revivalism, not his theology. It wasn't until later, in the Oberlin days, that disputes broke out.

I'm disappointed that you are making this a doctrinal feud. I purposefully did not put it in the theology forum to avoid this. I want the thread to be about revival, not Calvinism/Arminianism.

 

[John of Japan]

"All the mighty works of God, have been attended with great prayer, as well as with great faith. Have you ever heard of the commencement of the great American revival? A man unknown and obscure, laid it up in his hear to pray that God would bless his country. After praying and wrestling and makking the soul-stirring enquiry, 'Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?' he hired a room and put up an announcement that there would be a prayer meeting held there at such-and-such an hour of the day" (Spurgeon, op cit, pp. 28-29). As Spurgeon told it, the prayer meeting grew and grew, and revival broke out, starting with the prayer of an obscure Christian.

 

[JesusFan]

Huh? So do you actually believe that "Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience"? I certainly don't believe that. Christ did not "obey" the Law, He fulfilled it. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matt. 5:17).


I don't believe this makes Finney a heretic in the Bible sense. He actually drew churches together with his revivals. Churches who opposed Finney in those days opposed his revivalism, not his theology. It wasn't until later, in the Oberlin days, that disputes broke out.

I'm disappointed that you are making this a doctrinal feud. I purposefully did not put it in the theology forum to avoid this. I want the thread to be about revival, not Calvinism/Arminianism.

Finney though was neither Arminian nor Calvinist, but was restoring back into churches old heresy of Pelagius

 

[JesusFan]

Huh? So do you actually believe that "Christ's obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience"? I certainly don't believe that. Christ did not "obey" the Law, He fulfilled it. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matt. 5:17).


I don't believe this makes Finney a heretic in the Bible sense. He actually drew churches together with his revivals. Churches who opposed Finney in those days opposed his revivalism, not his theology. It wasn't until later, in the Oberlin days, that disputes broke out.

I'm disappointed that you are making this a doctrinal feud. I purposefully did not put it in the theology forum to avoid this. I want the thread to be about revival, not Calvinism/Arminianism.

Think that true revival is heaven sent downward movement of the Holy Spirit at the annoited time to have it happen

 

[JesusFan]

Did he preach salvation by faith in Jesus Christ?

Heresy, imo, most frequently involves denial of the essentials of the faith…. Almost always concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ.

I don’t believe human will is “free”. But I don’t believe people are heretics if they don’t agree with me.

Let’s not hijack this thread, though.

Peace to you

Finney followed Pelagius who was condemned as holding to heretical teaching and doctrine concerning the Gospel though

 

[John of Japan]

Finney followed Pelagius who was condemned as holding to heretical teaching and doctrine concerning the Gospel though

So you say the second time in a repetitive post. So, tell you what, start your own thread to condemn the man.

 

[John of Japan]

I was raised to believe in personal revival. That is, a Christian can walk with Jesus Christ in a continual state of victory (not sinless perfection, though), constantly confessing sin, having a habit of praying about all things all day, witnessing for Christ when opportunity is there. This personal revival comes not from human effort but from resting in the power of Jesus Christ. In other words, we walk in personal revival by faith, just like we got saved.

My pastor father's life verse was Galatians 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

 

[Van]

Galatians 2:20 NET
I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

A Great life verse!!

We are to be chips of the "ol block" and about our Father's business, of leading people to Christ so the Father can choose a people for His own possession. We are ambassadors of Christ and witnesses to the Amazing Grace that saves wretches like us.

 

[JesusFan]

So you say the second time in a repetitive post. So, tell you what, start your own thread to condemn the man.

Will start own verse, you would agree with me then though that Pelagius doctrine of salvation has been rightly condemn as being heretical view on salvation proper?

 

[JesusFan]

I was raised to believe in personal revival. That is, a Christian can walk with Jesus Christ in a continual state of victory (not sinless perfection, though), constantly confessing sin, having a habit of praying about all things all day, witnessing for Christ when opportunity is there. This personal revival comes not from human effort but from resting in the power of Jesus Christ. In other words, we walk in personal revival by faith, just like we got saved.

My pastor father's life verse was Galatians 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Would agree with you on that aspect of individual revival, but think corporate or national revival needs to be from top down, as God Himself iniates it and the Holy Spirit brings it "down to dearth"

 

[John of Japan]

Would agree with you on that aspect of individual revival, but think corporate or national revival needs to be from top down, as God Himself iniates it and the Holy Spirit brings it "down to dearth"

Do you have any Scripture for this view? I submit that all of the revivals in the Bible were preceded by human repentance and extended seasons of prayer.

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Acts 4:31).

 

[John of Japan]

John R. Rice emphasized prayer, with his best seller being Prayer: Asking and Receiving (500,000 copies or so). he believed strongly that we can "Pray without ceasing."

"I was sitting on the sofa reading when Granddad arrived home from his office at the Sword. He pulled up into the carport in his Buick and then entered the house through the side door on my left. I expected some kind of greeting from him as he walked by me towards the hall, but instead I heard him praying as he walked, “Help me, Jesus.” He did not even notice me, but that was all right, because I was thus given a chance to see how faithfully he walked with Jesus in praying without ceasing" (John R. Rice, The Last Revivalist of the 20th Century, by John R. Himes, p. 43).

 

[John of Japan]

Repentance, making things right, and much prayer are necessary from the human side for revival.

"The 'Buffalo for Christ' citywide campaign of the same year [1944--JoJ] had a rough start, however. There were 92 churches and organizations supporting the meetings, but Rice found in a preachers’ meeting that there were cliques and disagreements among the supporting pastors. In a preparatory meeting, they were arguing about minor matters instead of praying. Rice wrote, 'They were angry with each other, and they didn’t get along. And I heard two of the men of the largest fundamental, sound churches—one Presbyterian and one Baptist— argue and sneer at each other and criticize each other publicly in the preacher’s meeting.' Some even suggested that the laymen wanted a revival, but not necessarily the pastors. Greatly burdened, Rice turned to the pastors and rebuked them, saying, 'Why not have a night of prayer and get right with each other? How are we going to have a revival when you preachers are fussing and are indignant and unconcerned about it?' For the rest of that meeting, many of the pastors discussed the issue, with notes passed back and forth. Finally, they agreed to have a night of prayer, and for the next three Wednesday nights about 300 people prayed all night. There were no breaks, there were no refreshments, just God’s people on their faces before Him, asking for a revival. God sent a result of 997 professions of faith, with 300 of them being unchurched people. Many backslidden Christians repented and made things right with the Lord."
(Himes, pp. 21-22; sources quoted from Rice's writings: Luke 16 and 18, 1970, a radio pamphlet; Dr. Rice Goes to College, 1977)

 

[John of Japan]

D. L. Moody called the Pentecost revival a "specimen revival," meaning that it gave us a pattern to follow for revival. They prayed in the Upper Room very seriously and long:

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren" (Acts 1:14).

They took care of spiritual business, choosing Matthias in place of Judas. They had just been with Jesus, and were now obeying His Great Commission. They were right with each other and the Lord. If sincere, long and serious prayer is added, revival can happen. It is God who sends revival, but he does it in answer to prayer.

The problem with a "sovereign act" view of revival is that it eliminates prayer. If we believe God answers prayer, than we must believe that He will answer prayer for revival. We are to pray about everything!

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" (Phil. 4:6).

This is not really a Cal. vs. Arm. problem. Many Calvinists believe in praying for revival. Spurgeon rejoiced when D. L. Moody arrived in England!

 

[JesusFan]

Galatians 2:20 NET
I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

A Great life verse!!

We are to be chips of the "ol block" and about our Father's business, of leading people to Christ so the Father can choose a people for His own possession. We are ambassadors of Christ and witnesses to the Amazing Grace that saves wretches like us.

We speak forth to those whom the Father already has chosen to get saved, as He uses the Gospel and the Holy Spirit to get them saved

Do you have any Scripture for this view? I submit that all of the revivals in the Bible were preceded by human repentance and extended seasons of prayer.

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Acts 4:31).

Grteatest revival in bible might have been Ninaveh, and the Lord looked like had already been preparing for the message of prophet Jonah, going before his coming to them to "pave the way"

 

[Van]

No individual was chosen for salvation before they believed during their lifetime. Ephesians 1:4 for the umpteenth time refers to our corporate election as the target group of God's redemption plan, when God chose His Redeemer individually, He chose the target group (believers whose faith God credits as righteousness) corporately.

 

[Tenchi]

I was raised to believe in personal revival. That is, a Christian can walk with Jesus Christ in a continual state of victory (not sinless perfection, though), constantly confessing sin, having a habit of praying about all things all day, witnessing for Christ when opportunity is there. This personal revival comes not from human effort but from resting in the power of Jesus Christ. In other words, we walk in personal revival by faith, just like we got saved.

My pastor father's life verse was Galatians 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

That's a great verse! Understood less and less by modern, North American Christians, however.

I work in the Church primarily in the realm of discipleship and over the last three decades I've been doing so, the doctrines of the crucified life and walking in/by the Spirit - meat-and-potatoes Christianity - have disappeared from view. Many are the frustrated, and exhausted, and compromised believers I meet these days, as a result! And how desperate is the need for revival generally in the churches in which these men I've discipled are members.

I'm meeting with a local pastor on Friday to discuss this very matter with him. His church is on the cusp of closing its doors and he wonders what can be done to avoid such an event. But he's admitted to me that, for years, he's neglected both evangelism and discipleship and, except for slogans and catch-phrases, does not understand what life in the Spirit is and what pertinency Romans 6 (as well as Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Colossians 2:9-13; 3:1-4, etc.) has to Christian living.

Long in the pattern of his understanding of Christian living (which is essentially moralistic, boot-strap theology), it is likely going to be very... uncomfortable (actually impossible, except God intervenes) for him to "recalibrate" his thinking to include the truth of Galatians 2:20 and 5:16, 25. But, he's definitely not unique in his ignorance. Strangely, he's got a Masters degree from a local, well-known seminary, and loves to carefully exegete the OT. Increasingly, though, the reality that such credentials and spiritual maturity are not synonymous is coming to the fore (Ravi Zacharias, Steve Lawson, Tony Evans, Bill Hybels, Robert Morris, James MacDonald, etc.).