Revival is...

[Van]

That's a great verse! Understood less and less by modern, North American Christians, however.

I work in the Church primarily in the realm of discipleship and over the last three decades I've been doing so, the doctrines of the crucified life and walking in/by the Spirit - meat-and-potatoes Christianity - have disappeared from view. Many are the frustrated, and exhausted, and compromised believers I meet these days, as a result! And how desperate is the need for revival generally in the churches in which these men I've discipled are members.

I'm meeting with a local pastor on Friday to discuss this very matter with him. His church is on the cusp of closing its doors and he wonders what can be done to avoid such an event. But he's admitted to me that, for years, he's neglected both evangelism and discipleship and, except for slogans and catch-phrases, does not understand what life in the Spirit is and what pertinency Romans 6 (as well as Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Colossians 2:9-13; 3:1-4, etc.) has to Christian living.

Long in the pattern of his understanding of Christian living (which is essentially moralistic, boot-strap theology), it is likely going to be very... uncomfortable (actually impossible, except God intervenes) for him to "recalibrate" his thinking to include the truth of Galatians 2:20 and 5:16, 25. But, he's definitely not unique in his ignorance. Strangely, he's got a Masters degree from a local, well-known seminary, and loves to carefully exegete the OT. Increasingly, though, the reality that such credentials and spiritual maturity are not synonymous is coming to the fore (Ravi Zacharias, Steve Lawson, Tony Evans, Bill Hybels, Robert Morris, James MacDonald, etc.).

I fear your post is a little too much "inside baseball" for me to appreciate, but I too have come to believe we are not as engaged as commanded in evangelism and discipleship. My efforts at discipleship certainly had mixed results. Some were open to God's word, and seemed to learn, while others seemed just set on getting through the program to "check a box." All this to say, a predicate of revival is a realization that our understanding is flawed.

 

[John of Japan]

We speak forth to those whom the Father already has chosen to get saved, as He uses the Gospel and the Holy Spirit to get them saved

Grteatest revival in bible might have been Ninaveh, and the Lord looked like had already been preparing for the message of prophet Jonah, going before his coming to them to "pave the way"

With this, you choose a passage wherein the only believer at the start was backslidden all through the book! So I take it that you believe revival is the salvation of souls, and not the revival of believers. That is a mistaken view of revival.

The word "re-vive," once again, means "to cause to live again." It is believers who are to pray, "Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?" (Psalm 985:6). It is believers who need revival. The salvation of souls is not revival, but a result of revival. Souls will be saved when Christians get right with God. This has been my theme all through the thread.

 

[John of Japan]

That's a great verse! Understood less and less by modern, North American Christians, however.

I work in the Church primarily in the realm of discipleship and over the last three decades I've been doing so, the doctrines of the crucified life and walking in/by the Spirit - meat-and-potatoes Christianity - have disappeared from view. Many are the frustrated, and exhausted, and compromised believers I meet these days, as a result! And how desperate is the need for revival generally in the churches in which these men I've discipled are members.

I'm meeting with a local pastor on Friday to discuss this very matter with him. His church is on the cusp of closing its doors and he wonders what can be done to avoid such an event. But he's admitted to me that, for years, he's neglected both evangelism and discipleship and, except for slogans and catch-phrases, does not understand what life in the Spirit is and what pertinency Romans 6 (as well as Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Colossians 2:9-13; 3:1-4, etc.) has to Christian living.

Long in the pattern of his understanding of Christian living (which is essentially moralistic, boot-strap theology), it is likely going to be very... uncomfortable (actually impossible, except God intervenes) for him to "recalibrate" his thinking to include the truth of Galatians 2:20 and 5:16, 25. But, he's definitely not unique in his ignorance. Strangely, he's got a Masters degree from a local, well-known seminary, and loves to carefully exegete the OT. Increasingly, though, the reality that such credentials and spiritual maturity are not synonymous is coming to the fore (Ravi Zacharias, Steve Lawson, Tony Evans, Bill Hybels, Robert Morris, James MacDonald, etc.).

We are having our "Victory Conference" this week, and these truths are prominent. One speaker preached on Romans 6 and the Christian life. Abiding in Christ is the whole key to the Christian life and living in personal revival. We have not the power to "persevere." It must be "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27).

 

[John of Japan]

No one has yet posted the quintessential passage for corporate revival (including me): "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Note how this passage portrays revival in the same way as Tenchi's post about the Canadian revivals; or rather, the Canadian revivals came about through obedience to God as taught in this verse.

 

[John of Japan]

Here are definitions 3-4 of the Hebrew word for "revive" (חיה, châyâh) in the Holladay Lexicon, from Psalm 85:6, etc.

"3. be revived, get well Gn 207 1K 1722f; — 4 come back to life again 2K 1321."

So the OT concept of "revival" is definitely to cause someone to live again wo has died. Note that this is the word used when a dead body was thrown into the tomb of Elisha, landed on Elisha's body, and came back to life (2 Kings 13:21). So it is ignoring the meaning of revival in the Hebrew OT to say that revival is simply souls getting saved. It must be more than that. It must be deadness (as in a dead church) coming back to life.

 

[JesusFan]

With this, you choose a passage wherein the only believer at the start was backslidden all through the book! So I take it that you believe revival is the salvation of souls, and not the revival of believers. That is a mistaken view of revival.

The word "re-vive," once again, means "to cause to live again." It is believers who are to pray, "Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?" (Psalm 985:6). It is believers who need revival. The salvation of souls is not revival, but a result of revival. Souls will be saved when Christians get right with God. This has been my theme all through the thread.

Think both views of revival fit well, as end time revival will be greatest conversion of sinners to getting saved, while those already saved be shall having the Holy Spirit working on and in them to making Jesus their first love once again

 

[JesusFan]

Here are definitions 3-4 of the Hebrew word for "revive" (חיה, châyâh) in the Holladay Lexicon, from Psalm 85:6, etc.

"3. be revived, get well Gn 207 1K 1722f; — 4 come back to life again 2K 1321."

So the OT concept of "revival" is definitely to cause someone to live again wo has died. Note that this is the word used when a dead body was thrown into the tomb of Elisha, landed on Elisha's body, and came back to life (2 Kings 13:21). So it is ignoring the meaning of revival in the Hebrew OT to say that revival is simply souls getting saved. It must be more than that. It must be deadness (as in a dead church) coming back to life.

Agree with revival of lost sinners back to God, and person and corporate revial for the church

 

[canadyjd]

D. L. Moody called the Pentecost revival a "specimen revival," meaning that it gave us a pattern to follow for revival. They prayed in the Upper Room very seriously and long:

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren" (Acts 1:14).

They took care of spiritual business, choosing Matthias in place of Judas. They had just been with Jesus, and were now obeying His Great Commission. They were right with each other and the Lord. If sincere, long and serious prayer is added, revival can happen. It is God who sends revival, but he does it in answer to prayer.

The problem with a "sovereign act" view of revival is that it eliminates prayer. If we believe God answers prayer, than we must believe that He will answer prayer for revival. We are to pray about everything!

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" (Phil. 4:6).

This is not really a Cal. vs. Arm. problem. Many Calvinists believe in praying for revival. Spurgeon rejoiced when D. L. Moody arrived in England!

It is God Holy Spirit that convicts sinners and guides believers. I don’t think God necessarily responds to believers when they pray for revival, but rather, believers respond to God Holy Spirit in their desire for the cause of Christ to be known in the world.

I don’t discount prayer at all. We know the prayers of the righteous accomplish much. We also know of sincere Christians praying for revival for many years and never seeing that fruit.

Jesus said in John 3, “the wind (Spirit) blows where He wills”, you can hear it but cannot control it.

This is why I believe revival to be a work of God Holy Spirit. It cannot be forced. I see the modern “revival” movements, based primarily in charismatic circles, to be a poor attempt at biblical revival.

Even Billy Graham, who was a Godly man and preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified in every sermon, acknowledged that 95% of the folks making professions of faith in his revivals, never committed to a Christian life.

Now, on the one hand, you could point out 300 million + professions of faith over his life resulted in 15 million new believers, which is astonishing.

On the other hand, you have the potential of 300 million folks with a false belief they are saved and will hear the words of our Lord at the judgment seat “depart from Me, I never knew you”.

Being reformed in my theology, I believe every person God desires to be saved will be saved. I also believe we should pray that every soul come to salvation and God Holy Spirit will pour out His love in revival.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

It is God Holy Spirit that convicts sinners and guides believers. I don’t think God necessarily responds to believers when they pray for revival, but rather, believers respond to God Holy Spirit in their desire for the cause of Christ to be known in the world.

I don’t discount prayer at all. We know the prayers of the righteous accomplish much. We also know of sincere Christians praying for revival for many years and never seeing that fruit.

What we've been saying is that there are a number of requirements for revival to occur. If one prays "for revival for many years" and never sees that fruit, something else is missing, another requirement: repentance, dedication, getting right with others, abandoning bitterness, etc.

Jesus said in John 3, “the wind (Spirit) blows where He wills”, you can hear it but cannot control it.

This is why I believe revival to be a work of God Holy Spirit. It cannot be forced. I see the modern “revival” movements, based primarily in charismatic circles, to be a poor attempt at biblical revival.

I don't believe that revival can be forced either. It is that the Lord has set forth requirements before He will send revival. Why is that hard to accept? Look again a few posts back where I quote 2 Chronicles 7:14. There are very clear requirements set forth by God Himself for revival.

As for the Charismatics, there is not one of them on earth who knows what real revival is. I have ministered in Africa, and they are all over Africa offering the heretical health and wealth gospel, tongues, and other heresies. God is not working at all among the Charismatics. Their idea of revival is the so-called "Toronto Blessing," with people rolling around on the floor, barking like does, being "drunk in the Spirit," etc. That last one is particularly evil: using the precious name of Jesus, they talk like they are actually drunk. Charismatics know nothing of true, Heaven sent revival.

Even Billy Graham, who was a Godly man and preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified in every sermon, acknowledged that 95% of the folks making professions of faith in his revivals, never committed to a Christian life.

Now, on the one hand, you could point out 300 million + professions of faith over his life resulted in 15 million new believers, which is astonishing.

On the other hand, you have the potential of 300 million folks with a false belief they are saved and will hear the words of our Lord at the judgment seat “depart from Me, I never knew you”.

Being reformed in my theology, I believe every person God desires to be saved will be saved. I also believe we should pray that every soul come to salvation and God Holy Spirit will pour out His love in revival.

Peace to you

Don't get me started on Billy Graham. It was absolutely not true revival when he preached after his compromise of the 1950's, and "95% of the folks making professions of faith" in his meetings were not saved. His meetings after the 1950's were "revival campaigns," but not revivals. While I thank God for those actually saved in his meetings, he was not a true revivalist in the mold of Moody, Torrey, Sunday, Rice, Bob Jones Sr., Hyman Appelman, etc. (I'll post more on Hyman Appelman later. He was a great Jewish evangelist back in the day, but almost unknown now.)

The whole evangelical world is heading away from revival at the present time. Several years ago, I read a movie review in Christianity Today, the flagship publication of evangelicalism. It recommended watching a certain movie in spite of its nudity, physical immorality, and swearing. The founder of that magazine, Carl F. H. Henry, was from the same town where the seminary is that I got my MA at, and he retired there. Henry became close friends with one of my professors, who told us the scholar was disgusted with where his movement had gone. When he died left an inheritance to that fundamentalist school rather than a New Evangelical school.

Revival requires purity and holiness and personal separation. We are not seeing that throughout evangelicalism.

 

[John of Japan]

Agree with revival of lost sinners back to God, and person and corporate revial for the church

Here's what you are missing. The problem with believing that the salvation of souls is revival rather than when believers get right is that it is not "being caused to live again" when someone gets saved. A lost person was never spiritually alive in the first place. They were "dead in trespasses and sins." If a person has never been alive in the first place, they can't be made "alive again," but only "alive" for truly the first time. Of all people, a Calvinist should know this!! "Quickened" in the following verses means "made alive," not "made alive again."

Eph 2:1--"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
Eph 2:5--"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."
Col 2:13--"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

 

[John of Japan]

"Whatever the outward distress, God's people can seek His face and have His power. Whatever the human limitations, we can have revival. We can have revival when it means persecution and death for Christians. We can have revival when the government is wicked and anti-Christian. We can have revival, provided God's faithful few pay God's price and have His mighty power!" (John R. Rice, We Can Have Revival Now, p. 33)

 

[JesusFan]

It is God Holy Spirit that convicts sinners and guides believers. I don’t think God necessarily responds to believers when they pray for revival, but rather, believers respond to God Holy Spirit in their desire for the cause of Christ to be known in the world.

I don’t discount prayer at all. We know the prayers of the righteous accomplish much. We also know of sincere Christians praying for revival for many years and never seeing that fruit.

Jesus said in John 3, “the wind (Spirit) blows where He wills”, you can hear it but cannot control it.

This is why I believe revival to be a work of God Holy Spirit. It cannot be forced. I see the modern “revival” movements, based primarily in charismatic circles, to be a poor attempt at biblical revival.

Even Billy Graham, who was a Godly man and preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified in every sermon, acknowledged that 95% of the folks making professions of faith in his revivals, never committed to a Christian life.

Now, on the one hand, you could point out 300 million + professions of faith over his life resulted in 15 million new believers, which is astonishing.

On the other hand, you have the potential of 300 million folks with a false belief they are saved and will hear the words of our Lord at the judgment seat “depart from Me, I never knew you”.

Being reformed in my theology, I believe every person God desires to be saved will be saved. I also believe we should pray that every soul come to salvation and God Holy Spirit will pour out His love in revival.

Peace to you

That is exactly why did not think that the so called college campus revival said to be on at Asbury was really a biblical one, as much of the
involved in it were leadership from charismatic chaosand even nar groups and word of faith, and the Holy Spirit Himself will not be involved in that type of crowd

Biblical revival seems to me to be at the anointed and predestined time of the movement of the Holy Spirit to move upon and with the peoples of God as a top down Heaven to earth movement to

 

[JesusFan]

What we've been saying is that there are a number of requirements for revival to occur. If one prays "for revival for many years" and never sees that fruit, something else is missing, another requirement: repentance, dedication, getting right with others, abandoning bitterness, etc.

I don't believe that revival can be forced either. It is that the Lord has set forth requirements before He will send revival. Why is that hard to accept? Look again a few posts back where I quote 2 Chronicles 7:14. There are very clear requirements set forth by God Himself for revival.

As for the Charismatics, there is not one of them on earth who knows what real revival is. I have ministered in Africa, and they are all over Africa offering the heretical health and wealth gospel, tongues, and other heresies. God is not working at all among the Charismatics. Their idea of revival is the so-called "Toronto Blessing," with people rolling around on the floor, barking like does, being "drunk in the Spirit," etc. That last one is particularly evil: using the precious name of Jesus, they talk like they are actually drunk. Charismatics know nothing of true, Heaven sent revival.

Don't get me started on Billy Graham. It was absolutely not true revival when he preached after his compromise of the 1950's, and "95% of the folks making professions of faith" in his meetings were not saved. His meetings after the 1950's were "revival campaigns," but not revivals. While I thank God for those actually saved in his meetings, he was not a true revivalist in the mold of Moody, Torrey, Sunday, Rice, Bob Jones Sr., Hyman Appelman, etc. (I'll post more on Hyman Appelman later. He was a great Jewish evangelist back in the day, but almost unknown now.)

The whole evangelical world is heading away from revival at the present time. Several years ago, I read a movie review in Christianity Today, the flagship publication of evangelicalism. It recommended watching a certain movie in spite of its nudity, physical immorality, and swearing. The founder of that magazine, Carl F. H. Henry, was from the same town where the seminary is that I got my MA at, and he retired there. Henry became close friends with one of my professors, who told us the scholar was disgusted with where his movement had gone. When he died left an inheritance to that fundamentalist school rather than a New Evangelical school.

Revival requires purity and holiness and personal separation. We are not seeing that throughout evangelicalism.

Real sign of real revival is when we have Jesus restored as first love, and that we really desire Hs will de done in our lives, as we really do want to obey Him and to love God and the brethren

 

[JesusFan]

What we've been saying is that there are a number of requirements for revival to occur. If one prays "for revival for many years" and never sees that fruit, something else is missing, another requirement: repentance, dedication, getting right with others, abandoning bitterness, etc.

I don't believe that revival can be forced either. It is that the Lord has set forth requirements before He will send revival. Why is that hard to accept? Look again a few posts back where I quote 2 Chronicles 7:14. There are very clear requirements set forth by God Himself for revival.

As for the Charismatics, there is not one of them on earth who knows what real revival is. I have ministered in Africa, and they are all over Africa offering the heretical health and wealth gospel, tongues, and other heresies. God is not working at all among the Charismatics. Their idea of revival is the so-called "Toronto Blessing," with people rolling around on the floor, barking like does, being "drunk in the Spirit," etc. That last one is particularly evil: using the precious name of Jesus, they talk like they are actually drunk. Charismatics know nothing of true, Heaven sent revival.

Don't get me started on Billy Graham. It was absolutely not true revival when he preached after his compromise of the 1950's, and "95% of the folks making professions of faith" in his meetings were not saved. His meetings after the 1950's were "revival campaigns," but not revivals. While I thank God for those actually saved in his meetings, he was not a true revivalist in the mold of Moody, Torrey, Sunday, Rice, Bob Jones Sr., Hyman Appelman, etc. (I'll post more on Hyman Appelman later. He was a great Jewish evangelist back in the day, but almost unknown now.)

The whole evangelical world is heading away from revival at the present time. Several years ago, I read a movie review in Christianity Today, the flagship publication of evangelicalism. It recommended watching a certain movie in spite of its nudity, physical immorality, and swearing. The founder of that magazine, Carl F. H. Henry, was from the same town where the seminary is that I got my MA at, and he retired there. Henry became close friends with one of my professors, who told us the scholar was disgusted with where his movement had gone. When he died left an inheritance to that fundamentalist school rather than a New Evangelical school.

Revival requires purity and holiness and personal separation. We are not seeing that throughout evangelicalism.

Amazing when we see many gushing over charismatics worshipping and so called practicing unity among the body, and yet are claiming the Holy Spirit doing that work among them, despite much of their theology being very bad to outright heretical in nature, such as WOF?

 

[JesusFan]

Here's what you are missing. The problem with believing that the salvation of souls is revival rather than when believers get right is that it is not "being caused to live again" when someone gets saved. A lost person was never spiritually alive in the first place. They were "dead in trespasses and sins." If a person has never been alive in the first place, they can't be made "alive again," but only "alive" for truly the first time. Of all people, a Calvinist should know this!! "Quickened" in the following verses means "made alive," not "made alive again."

Eph 2:1--"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
Eph 2:5--"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."
Col 2:13--"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

True biblical revival always seemed to also though produce a change in how the society and culture viewed God and His word, as they cleaned up once saved and change lifestyles and had real repenting going on

 

[JesusFan]

"Whatever the outward distress, God's people can seek His face and have His power. Whatever the human limitations, we can have revival. We can have revival when it means persecution and death for Christians. We can have revival when the government is wicked and anti-Christian. We can have revival, provided God's faithful few pay God's price and have His mighty power!" (John R. Rice, We Can Have Revival Now, p. 33)

Real revival always tends to be involved also around persecutions and tough times going on with Christians, such has been in China, Iran etc

 

[Tenchi]

No one has yet posted the quintessential passage for corporate revival (including me): "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Note how this passage portrays revival in the same way as Tenchi's post about the Canadian revivals; or rather, the Canadian revivals came about through obedience to God as taught in this verse.

If there's one thing the Israelites demonstrated as a nation, it was how weak, vacillating and temporary their "obedience" to God was. Thank God, He made a "new and living way" through Christ (He. 10:19-22) by which we could "put on Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), in him finding reconciliation to God and new life in the Spirit (2 Co. 5:17-20; Ro. 8:9-14). Apart from the life and work of the Spirit in us, his conviction (Jn. 16:8) and illumination of our minds and hearts to the Truth (Jn. 14:26, 16:13), his enabling "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Ti. 2:25), the injunction of 2 Chronicles 7:14 is impossible.

Oh, a Christian can have a fleshly response to the shame and guilt of a violated conscience, he can have a fleshly desperation to be free of the pain and trouble of his sinful choices, he can have a fleshly resolve never again to do as he's done, but, being fleshly, these things are inevitably short-lived, the corruption of the flesh poisoning all that arises from it, as God has warned it will (Ro. 7:18; Ga. 5:17; 6:7-8; Ro. 8:5-8). And so, I've seen many tears shed over sin, heard many weepy proclamations of repentance from, and confession of, evil living, but God wasn't in any of it. This was evident in how quickly the crying Christian, separated from the influence of the crowd at the revival meeting, returned to their old sinful pattern of living.

I say all this to point out that the command of 2 Chronicles 7:14, enacted apart from the power and work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, will only ultimately result in a return to former sinfulness, as the Israelite nation demonstrated, over and over again.

Really, I believe revival in a church is only necessary when proper discipleship has been neglected. If this isn't corrected, and discipleship (not mere Bible studies) instituted in the church, revival will, in time, be needed once more.

 

[John of Japan]

Real revival always tends to be involved also around persecutions and tough times going on with Christians, such has been in China, Iran etc

Not necessarily. Revival can occur anywhere, as witness the 1st and 2nd Great Awakenings in the USA.

 

[John of Japan]

That is exactly why did not think that the so called college campus revival said to be on at Asbury was really a biblical one, as much of the
involved in it were leadership from charismatic chaosand even nar groups and word of faith, and the Holy Spirit Himself will not be involved in that type of crowd

Amen.

Biblical revival seems to me to be at the anointed and predestined time of the movement of the Holy Spirit to move upon and with the peoples of God as a top down Heaven to earth movement to

Scripture?

 

[canadyjd]

I really don’t think we are far apart. I especially appreciate the focus of J.R. Rice on governmental, widespread persecution as a catalyst for revival.

That is more like God’s movement in the OT when Hebrews were persecuted.

Peace to you