Rewriting the Tulip

[Van]

Are you so daft?... You want to play with numbers, out of 50 Billion, 48 Billion are saved, so I guess 2 Billion are not... Now that's a multitude... Not only that you show Christ as a failure and as kyredneck on here says, Christ has the preeminence... Now how can Christ have the preeminence, if he loses 90% of what, his Father gave him?... Brother Glen

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Once again we find nonsense.

1) This proud poster claims my view "shows Christ as a failure."
2) Did I say Christ loses 90% of what His Father gave Him? Nope
3) Did I say or indicate Christ does not have first place in everything? Nope

So once again a Calvinist does not address what I said, but manufactures multiply misrepresentations to disparage me.

Since Christ died as a ransom for all, purchasing those to be saved and those never to be saved,, then everyone can accept that out of the billions of lives through-out time, only a few will find the narrow way that leads to like. But at the same time, if out of say 50 billion, 2 billion are saved, that two billion would be a great multitude.​

1) Christ provided the opportunity for reconciliation to humanity, but if only those God chooses obtains that reconciliation, that does NOT make Christ a failure.

2) How many does Christ lose of those transferred spiritually into Him? None, He never loses a single one!

3) Christ is above every created thing.

 

[Silverhair]

Okay. I didn't see anything attributing it as a quote.



Humans are, because they are born into separation from God, without the ability to be righteous. That is, to meet the standard necessary to escape judgment or come into relationship with God based on their merit. Because no human is sinless, it is logical to conclude they are sinful. It's just a fact.

In regards to salvation, again I ask, what merit or act of man obligates God to save them? This is contrary to a basic teaching of Scripture that 1) salvation is a gift, 2) God saves men because they cannot save themselves, and 3) Jesus Christ had to die in man's stead that they might be reconciled to God and have eternal life through relationship with Jesus Christ.



I hope it was a good walk!


God bless.

That man is sinful is not in question so we agree on that .

You are question begging what you ask what obligates God to save. God is not obligated to save anyone even those that believe. He has chosen to save those that believe. That is the condition that He has set, belief in Him.

 

[Darrell C]

We certainly disagree. If a person is born anew, their faith in Christ is protected. That is my understanding of 1 Peter 1:3-5.

Perhaps you might explain ...


Galatians 6
King James Version

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Clearly a brother is in view. We do not seek to restore unbelievers. Secondly, the same thing can occur to those who are haughty towards one overtaken in a fault.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

I think it reasonable to suggest that you are not considering that our Faith and our faith have two differing aspects: Godward, and Manward; eternal, and temporal. Just because we have faith in Christ does not mean we cannot be weak in faith.


Romans 14:1-3
King James Version

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.


That weakness in faith could succumb to anger is not unreasonable, either.

I would suggest to you, that, in denying the potential for a believer to fall into sin such as expressing unbelief is an extreme position forced by your own views. It also suggests a view that we are saved by faith through grace.

Of course the Lord keeps us, He is the Finisher (Perfecter) of our faith, not just the Author. In the process of life, all believers will go through growth and vary in strength concerning the manward aspect of their faith. I say all of this for this purpose: that you be careful not to sit in judgment of others who may very well be born again believers in the throes of rebellion. As with any you "believe" to be unbelievers, the goal is to speak the Words of Life, not the words of judgment. Because you have no power to to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment that leads to salvation.

Yes, some people believe God should not allow our loved ones to die or suffer. But reality teaches that if we follow Christ, the price is not bliss, but adversity. Peter experienced joy when Jesus told him, one day he would willingly die for Christ. John 21.

The reality is that even born again believers can fall into sin, and there is nothing in Scripture that makes it clear they cannot get to a point of anger towards God that they deny Him. I don't think this is something that is common, but I do allow for it.

And what's more, I can understand it, from a manward perspective.

The loss of a child is something I will never have to go through, because I have no children. I can relate in regards to loss of relatives, and even the loss of beloved pets. That a babe in Christ (and let's face it, a majority of believers will spend much of their walk in diapers due to a failure to grow) would get angry with God over the loss of a child (or even a spouse) doesn't change the fact that God will still finish the work He began.

Lastly, our very daily conversation can be equated to a rejection of God. If we reject His will for our lives, do we not deny Him? Are we not all guilty at some point of this sin?

I will give this matter more study, because it is a matter one might place in the grey area column, so I know it'll need further support.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

That man is sinful is not in question so we agree on that .

Excellent, common ground.

You are question begging what you ask what obligates God to save. God is not obligated to save anyone even those that believe.

In an ultimate sense, I agree, God is not obligated to save anyone, however, we do not overlook the obligation demanded by God's nature, in that He cannot lie, and has in fact promised to save. He is obligated to save those who obey His will, and His will for men in this Age is that they believe on the Name of Jesus Christ.

He has chosen to save those that believe.

I agree with this. But I would go further to say that He has chosen to save all men. He will not because the majority will actively reject His offer.

That is the condition that He has set, belief in Him.

I do not view this as a condition, but as a result.

When you came under conviction during God's ministry in your heart, did you say, "Okay God, I will accept that what you are telling me is the truth?" Did you ruminate over whether there was a judgment coming for you that had everlasting consequences? Were you the one that determined Christ's Sacrifice was worthy and capable of saving you vicariously?

No. God opened your heart to these truths.

That you believe in Christ is not because you are the judge of truth and error, it is because you yielded your heart to those truths.

Yes, men believe when they are saved, but ultimately that belief is due to God's grace in opening your eyes to His truth. We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace.


God bless.

 

[Silverhair]

Excellent, common ground.



In an ultimate sense, I agree, God is not obligated to save anyone, however, we do not overlook the obligation demanded by God's nature, in that He cannot lie, and has in fact promised to save. He is obligated to save those who obey His will, and His will for men in this Age is that they believe on the Name of Jesus Christ.



I agree with this. But I would go further to say that He has chosen to save all men. He will not because the majority will actively reject His offer.

Yes the bible tells us that God's desire is for all to come to Him but most will reject Him offer so again we agree.

I do not view this as a condition, but as a result.

But here we disagree.

When you came under conviction during God's ministry in your heart, did you say, "Okay God, I will accept that what you are telling me is the truth?" Did you ruminate over whether there was a judgment coming for you that had everlasting consequences? Were you the one that determined Christ's Sacrifice was worthy and capable of saving you vicariously?

No. God opened your heart to these truths.

That you believe in Christ is not because you are the judge of truth and error, it is because you yielded your heart to those truths.

Yes, men believe when they are saved, but ultimately that belief is due to God's grace in opening your eyes to His truth. We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace.


God bless.

This is where I see your view falling into error. You seem to have misunderstood what conviction is. One can be convicted of their sin but not all will respond the same way. Not all will turn in faith to God for their salvation. We can see this clearly in John. What does John 16:8-9 tell us? The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world yet we know that not all that are convicted will trust in God.

You asked a series of questions of whether I thought about the information that was presented regarding salvation. The obvious answer is YES. Logically one has to think something is true before they will trust in the one or the situation the information is about. If one rejects the truths about Christ it is because they do not believe they are true and vice versa .

When you say that God has to open their heart to the truth then we have to ask why He only opens some hearts and not all since we know He desires all to come to Him. You cannot say it is for those chosen before the foundation of the world as that would mean that God is disingenuous when He says He desires all to come to Him yet only opens some hearts.

So the logical conclusion is that man Has an actual God given free will with which to evaluate the information presented to him through creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message etc. As you rightly said we are saved by God's grace because of our faith/trust in Him. Our faith does not save us but it is the condition of our salvation.

 

[Van]

Perhaps you might explain ...
Galatians 6
King James Version

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Clearly a brother is in view. We do not seek to restore unbelievers. Secondly, the same thing can occur to those who are haughty towards one overtaken in a fault.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

I think it reasonable to suggest that you are not considering that our Faith and our faith have two differing aspects: Godward, and Manward; eternal, and temporal. Just because we have faith in Christ does not mean we cannot be weak in faith.


Romans 14:1-3
King James Version

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

That weakness in faith could succumb to anger is not unreasonable, either.

I would suggest to you, that, in denying the potential for a believer to fall into sin such as expressing unbelief is an extreme position forced by your own views. It also suggests a view that we are saved by faith through grace.

Of course the Lord keeps us, He is the Finisher (Perfecter) of our faith, not just the Author. In the process of life, all believers will go through growth and vary in strength concerning the manward aspect of their faith. I say all of this for this purpose: that you be careful not to sit in judgment of others who may very well be born again believers in the throes of rebellion. As with any you "believe" to be unbelievers, the goal is to speak the Words of Life, not the words of judgment. Because you have no power to to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment that leads to salvation.

The reality is that even born again believers can fall into sin, and there is nothing in Scripture that makes it clear they cannot get to a point of anger towards God that they deny Him. I don't think this is something that is common, but I do allow for it.

And what's more, I can understand it, from a manward perspective.

The loss of a child is something I will never have to go through, because I have no children. I can relate in regards to loss of relatives, and even the loss of beloved pets. That a babe in Christ (and let's face it, a majority of believers will spend much of their walk in diapers due to a failure to grow) would get angry with God over the loss of a child (or even a spouse) doesn't change the fact that God will still finish the work He began.

Lastly, our very daily conversation can be equated to a rejection of God. If we reject His will for our lives, do we not deny Him? Are we not all guilty at some point of this sin?

I will give this matter more study, because it is a matter one might place in the grey area column, so I know it'll need further support.

God bless.

I can comment on all your citations, but I did not see where you addressed my citation of 1 Peter 1:3-5.

1) Galatians 1:6 here a born anew believer has stopped striving to follow Christ, or stopped trying to make Christ "Lord" (boss) of his life. A person can still have faith in Jesus but is no longer effectively following Him. This verse does not address whether the person still believes, only that he has stumbled.

2) The passage on church discipline arrives at treating the person as a non-believer after efforts to restore have failed. This is consistent with my view. See Matthew 18:15-17. I do not see any support for "two differing aspects of our faith."

3) I did not say nor suggest a born anew believer could not fall into ineffectiveness, not following Christ. And I did not say nor suggest we are saved by faith through grace. Please stop fabricating strawmen arguments, address my actual viewpoint.

4) My understanding of the phrase "author and perfecter of the faith" is probably very different from yours. We base our faith on Christ, thus He is the originator of our faith, and when we are born anew, He perfects or completes our faith such that it eternally established.

5) Lastly although we, as born anew believers, have thoughts and do deeds, that would be sinful for a lost person, they do not result in the consequence of sin being applied to us, so that we can say we do not sin.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes the bible tells us that God's desire is for all to come to Him but most will reject Him offer so again we agree.

Again, excellent.

I do not view this as a condition, but as a result.

But here we disagree.

Most do. They feel they have put forth the effort that has saved them. Rather than accept Scripture's clear teaching that God alone is the Savior. That he begins the work of Redemption, and that He finishes it.

Your faith is a "work that you have done" if you attach salvific value to it. You are the one "letting" God save you.

This is where I see your view falling into error. You seem to have misunderstood what conviction is. One can be convicted of their sin but not all will respond the same way.

To be convicted is to be convinced:

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove G1651 the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted G1651 by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

It is God's Ministry that brings about that conviction. Not the ruminations of men.

The natural man cannot understand the Gospel, it is just a fact. You may know that pregnancy is painful, but unless you are woman that has given birth—you cannot know.

I would suggest you give reconsideration to your own understanding of conviction.

Not all will turn in faith to God for their salvation. We can see this clearly in John. What does John 16:8-9 tell us? The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world yet we know that not all that are convicted will trust in God.

You are making my point: the Holy Ghost convicts the whole world. That is what I said. They believe and actively reject the truth that is given to them:

2 Peter 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

They have been given truth and have rejected it. This falls within the inherent ability of fallen man.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You asked a series of questions of whether I thought about the information that was presented regarding salvation. The obvious answer is YES.

If you mean these questions ...

When you came under conviction during God's ministry in your heart, did you say, "Okay God, I will accept that what you are telling me is the truth?" Did you ruminate over whether there was a judgment coming for you that had everlasting consequences? Were you the one that determined Christ's Sacrifice was worthy and capable of saving you vicariously?

... you are right: we disagree.

It simply isn't possible for you to, for example, know within your own experience that Hell is real (the judgment that awaits unbelievers). You couldn't possibly know from your experience, or anything within you that Jesus Christ actually died on the Cross and that it is to Him you must appeal.

I hope that better explains my position.

Logically one has to think something is true before they will trust in the one or the situation the information is about. If one rejects the truths about Christ it is because they do not believe they are true and vice versa .

James 2:19
King James Version

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Scripture does not define belief as "Those who accept Christ."

Belief is tied to obedience. This is why we are told that men must come into obedience to the Gospel:

Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I am not saying men do not have to believe, I am saying all who come under the convicting ministry of the Comforter do believe, yet not all obey the Gospel. They actively reject the Gospel.

When you say that God has to open their heart to the truth then we have to ask why He only opens some hearts and not all since we know He desires all to come to Him.

I've never said that. It is my position God gives every man and woman opportunity to be saved. Unfortunately the majority will reject His efforts.



John 16:7-8
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Take note that the convicting ministry of the Comforter (the Spirit of Truth) is toward the unbelieving (the world). This is all-inclusive.

You cannot say it is for those chosen before the foundation of the world

I can, as Scripture teaches, say that all those who will be redeemed were chosen prior to the foundation of the world. This does not preclude God's efforts towards those who reject Him.

as that would mean that God is disingenuous when He says He desires all to come to Him yet only opens some hearts.

This is a conclusion drawn by imposing your standards for God into your views.

God does desire all to come to Him, He does draw all men to Him, and He does bring conviction on all men. He opens the eyes of every man that cometh into the world, yet we have to be careful not to impose the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ into all Ages,

This is one of the primary reasons most fail to understand Eternal Redemption, because they impose New Covenant conditions into the Old, and vice versa.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

So the logical conclusion is that man Has an actual God given free will with which to evaluate the information presented to him through creation,

Nothing logical about bringing God's Word into conflict with itself:

1 Corinthians 2

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you read 1 Corinthians 2, (and even in Chapter One), you'll see that the Mystery of the Gospel is the focal point in much of what Paul writes. No eye has seen, no ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men. That makes it pretty clear.

We agree that God has presented all men with revelation by which he can be justified, but only faith in Christ (obedience to the Gospel) results in Reconciliation through which men and women are brought into everlasting relationship with God.

Recognizing God through Creation did not bring about the New Birth in the Old Testament (and it could be argued it does today but I would be arguing for it) because no one was being reconciled to God in those Ages. And I would go so far as to say that, even in the Old Testament, recognizing God did not equate to being in relationship with God:

Consider carefully:

Romans 2

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Gentiles that did not have the Covenant of Law are said to be justified by performing the Law which was written on their hearts. This is the Old Testament equivalent to the Ministry of the Comforter, the difference being, God is revealing the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. This heightens man's responsibility to the revelation God is providing them.

But back to the original point, it is God that writes these truths upon man's heart. What role did you play in that?

None.

the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message etc.

That you lump the Gospel of Christ in with the evidence of Creation shows a lack of understanding of the magnitude of the Gospel of Christ.

In the Old Testament, men were justified in a temporal perspective, but were not reconciled to God and brought into eternal union with Him through Christ. It was necessary that Christ die and rise again in order for that to happen.

The "gospel" was preached in the Old Testament, and it must be understood that what was preached foretold Eternal Redemption, but the particulars were not revealed to men prior to this Age. That is why Abraham, for example, though justified by faith—died awaiting the promise of Eternal Redemption.

As you rightly said we are saved by God's grace because of our faith/trust in Him.

At no time did I utter such error, lol.

We are saved by the grace of God—period. That you believe you are saved "because of your faith in Him" means you believe you contribute to your salvation.

As I said, your belief and faith and trust is a result of coming to know the truth, the way of righteousness, and that way isn't Jesus + Silverhair, it is Jesus Christ alone. He saved you wholly. He is the One that allowed you to understand the Gospel that you might believe. He is the One that granted you repentance that you might have eternal life.

But most of all, He is the One that died in your stead on the Cross. You weren't there with Him, nor was any man or woman. That is why He, not we, is c all The Way.

Our faith does not save us but it is the condition of our salvation.

And that makes no sense, really. How can it not save us if it is a condition? If there is no faith, there is no salvation, right?

Faith is a result of His opening of our understanding to the truths of the Gospel.

It is not of yourself, that's just a fact based on the Word of God:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

How can it be of yourself (your natural ability) if it was given to you by God? What part of salvation is not a gift?


God bless.

 

[Van]

The TULIP should be a beautiful flower of God, spreading the points of its pedals above the bedrock of scripture from which it arose.

“T” should stand for Totally in Adam; totally separated from God by our corrupted and unholy spiritual nature.

“U” should stand for Unlimited Reconciliation; God is reconciling fallen humanity to Himself one believer at a time because the sacrifice of Jesus provided the means of salvation for the sin of humanity.

“L” should stand for Limited Redemption; All mankind has been purchased for God, the ransom for all has been paid in full, but not all men have received (or will receive) the reconciliation provided by Christ. When we are individually chosen (elected) we are then made “at one with God” when we are spiritually baptized into Christ based on God accepting our faith in Christ as sufficient for His purpose, thus crediting our faith as righteousness.

“I” should stand for In Christ; when we are spiritually baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, we are converted, given a new heart with our faith hard wired into our soul, and with a clear conscience such that we arise from the baptism into Christ’s death a new spiritual creature in Christ, created for good works and then after our spiritual purification, indwelt with the Holy Spirit as a helper and as God's pledge to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.

“P” should stand for Protected Faith; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, therefore “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.

It is time to proclaim the TULIP of Scripture.

 

[Van]

Everyone is conceived Totally in Adam and remains spiritually dead, separated from God by their unholiness as sinners unless transferred into Christ. This of course reflects God's word, 1 Corinthians 15:22.

Such persons, as we all were, are totally incapable of transferring themselves into Christ, as the action is totally by the grace of God alone.

However, while in Adam, they can desire and strive to be transferred, but salvation does not depend on these actions, salvation depends on the one who transfers them into Christ. Romans 9:16

Only when God credits the faith of a spiritually dead person as righteousness, does the person get called into the Kingdom of His marvelous light. When a person obtains mercy does not mean they earned mercy but just the opposite. Mercy means not getting what you earned or deserved. In order not to have received God's mercy, an individual could not have been chosen to receive the mercy of salvation. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes Ephesians 1:4 from being individually chosen for salvation before creation and requires the verse refers to our corporate election as the target group of God's redemption plan to be accomplished by His Redeemer chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Darrell C]

I can comment on all your citations, but I did not see where you addressed my citation of 1 Peter 1:3-5.

The entire post addressed 1 Peter 1:3-5. It asks you to consider teaching that points out believers can fall into sin.

That our salvation is kept by God doesn't preclude times in our lives when our faith is weak, even to the point of questioning whether we are saved, or denying that we have been. Our declaration of our condition doesn't dictate the reality. Just as those who think they are saved but are not do not make themselves saved, even so those who deny their salvation don't necessarily confess the reality.

I would point you to the lesson of the Prodigal Son.

1) Galatians 1:6 here a born anew believer has stopped striving to follow Christ, or stopped trying to make Christ "Lord" (boss) of his life. A person can still have faith in Jesus but is no longer effectively following Him. This verse does not address whether the person still believes, only that he has stumbled.

And it doesn't preclude anger at God.

2) The passage on church discipline arrives at treating the person as a non-believer after efforts to restore have failed. This is consistent with my view. See Matthew 18:15-17. I do not see any support for "two differing aspects of our faith."

It doesn't seem consistent, because you have denied the possibility in the position that (loose quote) "those who say they were once saved but now aren't were never saved."

You would not approach these people as brethren and seek to restore, you would run under the assumption they were never saved to begin with.

As far as two differing aspects of our faith, I am surprised you do not recognize a difference between being in the faith and having faith in our daily conversation. That we are weak in faith does not mean we are not in the faith.

3) I did not say nor suggest a born anew believer could not fall into ineffectiveness, not following Christ. And I did not say nor suggest we are saved by faith through grace. Please stop fabricating strawmen arguments, address my actual viewpoint.

You did. What is saying no believer could get to a point they deny God saved them?

It also suggests a view that we are saved by faith through grace.

You do the math: a believer must maintain his faith to be saved. If he does not, he was never saved. Again, I will say I don't think this is something that is common, but I think we have to allow for that occasion in our efforts with those who claim to have once been saved. Rather than simply writing them off as unbelievers.

4) My understanding of the phrase "author and perfecter of the faith" is probably very different from yours. We base our faith on Christ, thus He is the originator of our faith, and when we are born anew, He perfects or completes our faith such that it eternally established.

I would suggest your understanding of Perfection may be lacking. You are confusing Perfection with Progressive Sanctification. There is no passage in Scripture that teaches "He perfects or completes our faith such that it is eternally established." Be glad to see the Scripture on that.

Our faith, that which is man-ward, that which we strive to strengthen as we grow, remains imperfect until we go to be with Him.

Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


Hebrews 11
King James Version

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Abraham had faith, and this according to the revelation available to him in his day. When he was made complete, he was made complete in regards to remission of sins, and while we can say his faith was made "complete" (we assume he now understands the Gospel), we are again forced to acknowledge the difference between the faith expressed and evidenced in his life with the faith experienced by those who come to the truth of the Gospel. Abraham's faith allowed for lying. Peter's faith allowed for denying he even knew Jesus Christ.

We have the faith that is not a faith in something we have not seen. We do not "hope" Jesus is real, and that He has saved us, we know.

5) Lastly although we, as born anew believers, have thoughts and do deeds, that would be sinful for a lost person, they do not result in the consequence of sin being applied to us, so that we can say we do not sin.

Come again?

You deny there is consequence for sin in the life of a believer? It is sinful for a lost person but not us?

Even though we sin, we can say we do not sin?

Perhaps this is why you discount the potential for a believer to deny his salvation.


God bless.

 

[Silverhair]

They feel they have put forth the effort that has saved them. Rather than accept Scripture's clear teaching that God alone is the Savior.

The fact that most hold to the biblical view of salvation should tell you something but you seem to have missed it. God saves those that have believed in Him. Faith is not a work but it is a condition of salvation.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

To be convicted is to be convinced:

The natural man cannot understand the Gospel, it is just a fact.

Are you suggesting that since the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world that all should respond in the same way? The human condition proves that is not true.

If the natural man cannot understand the gospel message then why would Christ tell us to preach the gospel to the whole world? Why would the Holy Spirit have Paul write “...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...” if they cannot understand the message?

I would suggest you give reconsideration to your own understanding of conviction.

the Holy Ghost convicts the whole world. That is what I said. They believe and actively reject the truth that is given to them:

The Holy Spirit has told us all are convicted. But we know not all will trust. We see that all throughout the bible, man must make choices.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,



Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Do you notice the conditions there, the person must hear and believe prior to their being saved.

Those that hear and reject the message still know they are sinners and the consequence of rejection of Christ but do not care. I have born this out in a number of times that I have spoken to groups or individuals. Hearing the message and knowing it is true does not mean they will put their trust in Christ.

You couldn't possibly know from your experience, or anything within you that Jesus Christ actually died on the Cross and that it is to Him you must appeal.

Are you suggesting that one can not trust the gospel message and learn form scripture? From what you have said it seems you think people are totally incapable of thinking for themselves. You are making the case that calvinists think people are just puppets that God controls by pulling their strings. That is so unbiblical it is beyond words.

I am saying all who come under the convicting ministry of the Comforter do believe, yet not all obey the Gospel.

You are making my point, the person has to think something is true before they will trust in the one or the situation the information is about. Even if they agree the information is true that does not mean they will follow it as your example of the demons in James 2:19 clearly shows.

It is my position God gives every man and woman opportunity to be saved. Unfortunately the majority will reject His efforts.

You said “God opened your heart to these truths.” see post # 64 So the question stands. If God has to open their heart to the truth and He desires all to come to repentance then why does He only open so few hearts? The bible tells us that man can hear the gospel but he has to choose whether to trust in God or not.

I see you refer to the conviction of the Holy Spirit as being all inclusive and you said “To be convicted is to be convinced” and I agree that one can know they are a sinner but that does not always result in them trusting in God for their salvation. Turning to God for their salvation takes an act of the will.

all those who will be redeemed were chosen prior to the foundation of the world.

But this is where your theology runs aground. Under your theology God has chosen a few to unconditional salvation and the vast majority of the creation that He loves to unconditional reprobation. Those that reject Him were condemned to reject Him before the foundation of the world if your theology is correct, which thankfully it is not.

He opens the eyes of every man that cometh into the world, yet we have to be careful not to impose the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ into all Ages,

Of course we can not impose the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ into all Ages. Who said we did? But God has given man the information through the ages such that they could know Him.

God that writes these truths upon man's heart. What role did you play in that?

While the truths are written on their hearts by God they must still choose to believe and live by them.

That you believe you are saved "because of your faith in Him" means you believe you contribute to your salvation.

My faith does not save me but it is the condition of my salvation. That you deny faith is the condition of salvation shows you deny scripture. You refer to Ephesians 2:8 and ask “What part of salvation is not a gift?”. Answer, FAITH

 

[Darrell C]

The fact that most hold to the biblical view of salvation should tell you something but you seem to have missed it.

Mob Rules? That is your position?

I guess you have missed the fact that Christ teaches a many/few ratio. To embrace a position held by the majority, and then offer that as a reasonable standard is sad.

God saves those that have believed in Him.

A majority of people embrace that same philosophy: God helps those that help themselves.

Faith is not a work but it is a condition of salvation.

As you define it, it seems to be a work men do. If you didn't do it, there would be no chance for you to be saved.

Again, faith is a result of the convicting ministry of God in the hearts of men.

Reconsider:

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You condemn my view as unbiblical, yet you are in conflict with a very simple truth of Scripture. I can understand not being familiar with the examples of salvation being God's Work, but I can't understand how one can say something is a work effected by man in the face of Scripture saying explicitly that it isn't.

Because you don't yet understand my own view, you are forced to deny it simply to defend your own. It is clear in this post you haven't grasped what is being said. I'll try to remedy that with this response.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Many people were "saved" in the Old Testament Ages, but not a single person received Eternal Redemption. The reason? Because Christ had not yet died in their stead that they might be 1) forgiven their sins through the Atonement, and 2) made alive with life no man had ever received, that is, the Life of God through union with God on an eternal basis.

Back up in John and see how men receive the life John writes about (eternal/everlasting) about in John 3:16. Men had faith prior to God sending His Son, did that save them? No. Because in view is Eternal Redemption. In order for Eternal Redemption to be accomplished in the lives of men separated from God, God had to send His Son, He had to die in their stead, rise again, return to Heaven, then send the Comforter that men might believe.

There's no getting around it, apart from the Comforter coming and revealing the Gospel mystery, the Faith of Jesus Christ could not be understood by men.

And it seems to me you are having a problem understanding this discussion's focus, which is the state of the natural man, and whether he has within his nature the inherent ability to understand the Gospel. Paul makes it clear: he does not.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

If you post a response on this forum, you will talk to others.

The response is the validation, not a condition.

It's all a matter of perspective: you will either see a condition, or you will see a result. Unfortunately for you, all you see is condition.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Continuing in His Word for you is likely a condition. It is not. It is what justifies a conclusion that they are indeed disciples of Christ.

And can I point out the obvious? The disciples, at this point, believe. They have faith. So why is it that, to a man—they are scattered, forsaking Christ, and Peter, to the point of denying Christ altogether?

Just a little advice: don't place so much faith in your belief, and don't believe so strongly about your faith. Give God the glory for your salvation, not yourself.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Are you suggesting that since the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world that all should respond in the same way?

Nothing in what I have said suggests that.

The point you are missing is that the Comforter brings conviction upon "the world." As I pointed out, these are without controversy—unbelievers:


John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Give God the glory for your salvation.

It is He that convinced you of the truth of the Gospel. Your belief is a direct result of His ministry in your heart.

The human condition proves that is not true.

It's a syllogistic conclusion. I never said all will respond the same way, but in fact said the very opposite. That the majority will reject this ministry because that is what is in their inherent ability.

If the natural man cannot understand the gospel message then why would Christ tell us to preach the gospel to the whole world?

For the same reason He told the disciples to continue in His teachings. And one of those teachings we must continue in is that He taught He would return to Heaven and send the Comforter to being conviction upon unbelievers. Unfortunately, many, in their pride and arrogance—assume to usurp His ministry, thinking they are the ones that save people. It is no wonder they think they have saved themselves.

Romans 10

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Can you answer these questions? Does this place believing as a condition? Or a result of God's ministry? Answer the questions and you will have your answer.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

While the truths are written on their hearts by God they must still choose to believe and live by them.

You say this as though God writing these truths on their hearts is inconsequential.

Unless He wrote those things they would have continued in their natural state of ignorance in the spiritual things of God.

When Abraham received truth, Who was there giving it to him?

When Moses received truth, Who was there giving it to him?

When anybody in Scripture received truth—Who was there giving it to them?

My faith does not save me but it is the condition of my salvation.

Then your faith saves you. Anything that is a condition is a relevant element.

Fortunately, we don't have to be astute theologians in order for the Lord to save us.

Give God the glory, my friend. He saved you all by Himself. He gave you the ability, while you were dead in trespasses and sins, to understand the truth He revealed to you that was the genesis of belief and faith.

That you deny faith is the condition of salvation shows you deny scripture.

What ineffable twaddle.

As I continue to say, faith is the direct result of coming to understand the truths of the Gospel. Apart from the enlightenment we receive when God opens our hearts, we would be left with the abilities we were born with. Man's natural condition cannot know these truths. He can have an intellectual understanding, just as we have an intellectual understanding of unicorns and Hobbits. But he cannot know the truth in a biblical meaning. He cannot experience true repentance, belief, or faith in Christ.

Give God the glory, He is our Sovereign Savior.

You refer to Ephesians 2:8 and ask “What part of salvation is not a gift?”. Answer, FAITH

Not sure what part of this eludes you:

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I am not going to say you are denying Scripture, just that you don't understand it properly.

What is a work? It is something a man or woman does. You are teaching that a man or woman not only has to do something Scripture states clearly they do not, but you make it a condition of salvation itself.

You have just said that your faith is independent from God, it is something you have done in order to meet a condition of salvation, rather than acknowledging that faith is an element of the Salvation God gives to us as a gift.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Note to reader: these responses are not in their original order.

Why would the Holy Spirit have Paul write “...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...” if they cannot understand the message?

Because it isn't the power of God for salvation to unbelievers.

It doesn't make believing a work of man that is a condition for salvation, and it doesn't negate Scripture's teaching that God is the One that brings about repentance, belief, and faith. Should be rather obvious to the Bible Student.

I would suggest you give reconsideration to your own understanding of conviction.

Why? You have yet to present anything but false arguments with which to deny my views.

The Holy Spirit has told us all are convicted. But we know not all will trust.

Which is something I have already pointed out. Now you are going to repeat it in a context that implies I do not believe this?

We see that all throughout the bible, man must make choices.

Correct, and I have pointed out that those choices have to be distinguished from faith to faith. The faith of the Old Testament Saint was not faith in Jesus Christ, that He had died and risen, had atoned for their sins, and that He was Savior God Himself.

These are elements of the Mystery of Christ that unbelievers embrace when these truths are presented to them—by God Himself.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

There is no argument, the Gospel is presented before one is born again. You present this too as though it is something I do not acknowledge. I do. However, I also embrace God's teaching that He is the One that established the Gospel, and that He is the One that sends the preacher, and that He is the One that brings conviction in the unbelievers heart.

These elements are lacking in your understanding.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

It's kind of a no-brainer, isn't it? Kind of like, "Whosoever jumps into the ocean will get wet."

Nothing conditional about it at all, and it it doesn't detract from the elements you are overlooking in the process. I hate to say it, but this lends itself to a legalistic mindset. Praise God He is the One that sets the if/then conditions we adhere to. And praise God we are not under an if/then Covenant as those who were under Law were.

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Again, answer the questions. If you arrive at any conclusion that denies it is God's Word, His messengers, and God's Spirit that allows the natural man to understand—you will be in conflict with the Word of God.

Do you notice the conditions there, the person must hear and believe prior to their being saved.

Sorry, no, I don't notice the conditions your heart has placed on God and the Gospel. I do notice the fact you seem not to notice Who it is that brings about salvation.

Those that hear and reject the message still know they are sinners

Ahem, I believe I have pointed this out. But I will assume that maybe it was another poster that I did this with. Pretty sure I could go back and find it in our own discussion, though.

Again, it is my position that John 16:7-9 clarifies that when the Holy Ghost ministers in the hearts of men, there is a reactionary result. That is, when God opens the natural mind to His truth, the result is belief. This is why I posted James' statement, that even the devils believe. At this point, the unbeliever knows the truth. That is why I posted Peter's statement:


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


With full knowledge of the truth, the unbeliever rejects the truth. Since the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God, we look at Christ's teaching that it was the Comforter that convinced them of sin, righteousness, and judgment. And that is the consistent pattern of Scripture, that by His Spirit God enables men to know the truth. And the consistent pattern of Man is to reject truth:

Acts 7:51
King James Version

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why? Because that is most definitely within man's inherent ability.

Understanding the Gospel within his natural ability? No. Not only does Scripture makes this explicitly clear in statement, it is implicitly clear in the many examples we have. I would suggest to you the disciples of Christ as the prime example: because the Gospel itself was not being revealed, they could not have faith in Christ. You might say, "They did!" and you would be right, because they had faith in Messiah according to the revelation that was available to them.

But they weren't trusting in Christ as the Risen Savior.

It's just an incontrovertible fact.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Those that hear and reject the message still know they are sinners and the consequence of rejection of Christ but do not care.

I agree. This is a consistent teaching I have been clear about in all my postings dealing with this issue. Why present it as though you teach me something new?

I have born this out in a number of times that I have spoken to groups or individuals.

Bravo.

Hearing the message and knowing it is true does not mean they will put their trust in Christ.

Agreed. And ...?

Are you suggesting that one can not trust the gospel message and learn form scripture?

?

This is a bit ridiculous. Try to stay on point: the issue is whether a natural man can understand the Gospel and be saved, with a side-issue of whether men effect faith themselves, or if it is a gift of God (meaning, apart from God they would not be able to have faith (that the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God)).

From what you have said it seems you think people are totally incapable of thinking for themselves.

Well, some bear that out ...

You are making the case that calvinists think people are just puppets that God controls by pulling their strings.

I have not mentioned Calvinists in this discussion that I can recall, so how can I be doing that?

Please try to understand what I am saying: unbelievers receive the ability to repent, believe, and have faith—from the ministry of God in their hearts.

This is also true after salvation. Do you think we intellectually understand the mysteries of God? Or that He teaches us, as Scripture teaches:

John 14

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Lord clarifies this teaching in John 16:7.

John 15

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


John 16

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Give God the glory. He is the One that reveals truth. To unbelievers and believers.


Continued...

 

[Van]

The entire post addressed 1 Peter 1:3-5. It asks you to consider teaching that points out believers can fall into sin. SNIP
.

Sorry but I did not read beyond your first statement. LOL, ignoring a passage and addressing other passages you think teach something else is not addressing 1 Peter 1:3-5.

Here again is my understanding:

“P” should stand for Protected Faith; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, and therefore “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.​

This view does not claim a born anew believer cannot stumble (backslide) and stop or curtail his or her efforts to follow Christ. OTOH, it says, even in the midst of the stumble, you could ask the person if they still love Jesus and their answer would be "yes."
1 Peter 1:3-5 NASB

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ​

Two views seem possible, God's protection of our inheritance is conditioned upon our maintaining our faith, and God protects our faith such that our inheritance is secure. I believe the second view is correct.

 

[Darrell C]

You are making the case that calvinists think people are just puppets that God controls by pulling their strings.

That is so unbiblical it is beyond words.

Perhaps you can find someone this is relevant to. Perhaps they will be interested in discussing it. Me, I'd prefer if you stuck with what I have said.

You are making my point,

the person has to think something is true before they will trust in the one or the situation the information is about.

No argument there. Now, if we can just remember that it is God that sends out the one that preaches. It is God that decided how men would be saved.

And most importantly, it is God that gives the natural man the ability to understand the Gospel.

Even if they agree the information is true

They cannot argue with God. They will believe, and it is for actively rejecting the Gospel that becomes the basis for judgment:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


You can't disobey something you don't understand.

that does not mean they will follow it as your example of the demons in James 2:19 clearly shows.

Thanks. I thought that was pretty clear as well.

You said “God opened your heart to these truths.” see post # 64 So the question stands. If God has to open their heart to the truth and He desires all to come to repentance then why does He only open so few hearts?

To be more precise, He opens their understanding. The natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God, thus God must open their understanding. It is my view He does this for every man and woman.

But, just as Christ taught a many/few ratio, only a few will receive the truths He opens their understanding to.

Here's a picture of the entire Old Testament, every Age prior to this one:

1 Corinthians 2:7-9
King James Version

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


The glories of Heaven are not in view, the Gospel of Christ is in view.

And the One that kept it hidden is the same One that reveals it. Is that not logical? Can we conclude that natural men unlock the mysteries of God?


Romans 16:25-27
King James Version

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

If we believe Scripture itself is God-breathed, why would we not believe the understanding of that Word isn't?


Continued...