This doesn't surprise me. Look at this article and note especially the last two paragraphs:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/religion/13573441.htm
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/religion/13573441.htm
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Rick Warren opposes fundamentalism
- Thread starter bjonson
- Start date
Charles E.Smith
New Member
I'm no big fan of Warren and this only serves to reinforce it. I do give him credit though for repaying his salary to his church and practicing reverse tithing though I'm sure 10% of his book royalties doesn't make him a pauper.
Marcia
Active Member
I am no big fan of Warren, either, but I would want to know first what Warren means by "fundamentalism." Perhaps he is thinking of legalistic sects. The article does not clarify that and we shouldn't conclude things based on one newspaper article. We all know that terms that are not defined can mean different things to different people. "Fundamentalism" means a lot of different things to various people.
Some comments:
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If the above statement is true American Evangelical Christianity is in serious trouble.
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In Christ,
Martin.
==While I agree with Warren that we must be known for what we preach (offer, ie..the Gospel) and not only for what we are against I disagree with his amputation comment. Over the past 100 years many, many churches have been busy preaching the Gospel, feeding the poor, visiting prisons, building orphanages, hospitals, and schools. While these things have not recieved the high profile attention that Warren's book(s) recieved these things have been going on. Maybe Warren has over-looked these things?
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==Seems like we have moved from "How To Be Born Again" (Billy Graham, 1977) to "Purpose Driven Life" (Rick Warren, 2002). We have gone from Christ centered to man centered. I can't see how that is a very good thing. Sorry.
If the above statement is true American Evangelical Christianity is in serious trouble.
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==Amen, Rick Warren. Amen. At least on this we strongly agree.
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==Impressive. I hope other "popular" preachers are listening.....Benny Hinn???????
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==Its hard to know how to reply to this. It seems rather isolated. However I don't think we can put fundamental Christians like myself, John MacArthur, Steve Camp, James White, others on this board, and Jerry Falwell in the same camp with fundamentalists of other faiths (who may act in violant ways). However I am not sure what Warren means here since the statement is so isolated.
In Christ,
Martin.
Not to defend Warren (whose books I have not read), but "fundamentalism" does mean different things to different people. I believe in all the biblical fundamentals but don't call myself a fundamentalist (the word is too burdened with misunderstanding). In any case, Warren's statement should have been clarified and is unfortunate and inaccurate as it stands.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
quote:
"He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004."
It is the heart that God sees, not the amount. Ananais and Sapphira also gave so all could see their generosity.
"He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004."
It is the heart that God sees, not the amount. Ananais and Sapphira also gave so all could see their generosity.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
In a nice John Wayne drawl [referring to the entire acticle]:
well, pardner . . . Warren packs a purty smoking 6 shooter . . . problem is . . . he is shooting blanks . . .
==I certainly agree that it is the "heart that God sees, not the amount" however I must place a bit of a caution here. I think we are in danger of "over-stepping" our proper place when we attempt to judge the motives of another man. Unless we have solid proof that Warren is just giving so "all" can see I don't think we should say that he is or even imply that he might be (via example). The Bible is clear that we are not in a position to judge the heart of another man. For example Paul states:
"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God." 1Cor 4:5
The writer of Hebrews says that nothing is hidden from God's sight:
"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" Heb 4:13
God will judge the motives of Rick Warren, we should not try. All we can do is comment on what he has said/written/done. If he makes an error we should point it out. However we should never presume to know his heart. That is only for God.
Therefore we should not even imply that Warren, or anyone else, is doing charity "just for the publicity it may bring".
In Christ,
Martin.
IveyLeaguer
New Member
This is not a new thing, Warren has been talking like this in public for maybe a year now. He means 'extreme' fundamentalism as well as traditional fundamentalism.
1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Virgin Birth.
3. The Blood Atonement.
4. The Bodily Resurrection.
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.
This is not all that big of a deal to those of us who have tested Rick Warren's teachings with the scriptures, and dug into his connections and apparatuses. Unbalanced fundamentalists give us all a bad name. But I believe it is fair to say that if you hold a high view of scripture and make an effort to resist the world's influence on your faith, he means you.
Warren has become more bold the past year or so as PDL's success has ballooned, and I suspect he will become bolder still. He's been putting together his worldview for a long time and knows his material. There is nobody smoother.
For those who don't know, this sort of stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.
Here's the transcript of the forum: http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80
THE FIVE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH
1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Virgin Birth.
3. The Blood Atonement.
4. The Bodily Resurrection.
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.
This is not all that big of a deal to those of us who have tested Rick Warren's teachings with the scriptures, and dug into his connections and apparatuses. Unbalanced fundamentalists give us all a bad name. But I believe it is fair to say that if you hold a high view of scripture and make an effort to resist the world's influence on your faith, he means you.
Warren has become more bold the past year or so as PDL's success has ballooned, and I suspect he will become bolder still. He's been putting together his worldview for a long time and knows his material. There is nobody smoother.
For those who don't know, this sort of stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.
Here's the transcript of the forum: http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80
For what it is worth Al Mohler responded to RW's comments on his website. Al is a pretty respected guy. I appreciate his comments. He says that RW's comments were "dishonest" . I think the very fact that RW lumped christian fundamentalists in with Muslim fundamentalists is a definition within itself.
I just want to know who gave RW the right to speak on behalf of all of evangelicals? He obviously thinks that if your not a seeker church like his then your not up with the program.
No matter what he meant it sounded to the lost world out there and the liberal media like RW was referring to all those meddling christians that just don't go with the flow.
His remarks could one day be used as one of the bricks that builds the foundation of persecution for "true believers".
He kind of comes across as if to say if your not on board with how we do it then your going to become an obstacle that has to be removed.
His comments are frightening being that he can so easily get the media's ear and has such sway over so many churches and pastors.
I'm just glad a guy like Al Mohler, who has some crediability stood up and said something.
I just want to know who gave RW the right to speak on behalf of all of evangelicals? He obviously thinks that if your not a seeker church like his then your not up with the program.
No matter what he meant it sounded to the lost world out there and the liberal media like RW was referring to all those meddling christians that just don't go with the flow.
His remarks could one day be used as one of the bricks that builds the foundation of persecution for "true believers".
He kind of comes across as if to say if your not on board with how we do it then your going to become an obstacle that has to be removed.
His comments are frightening being that he can so easily get the media's ear and has such sway over so many churches and pastors.
I'm just glad a guy like Al Mohler, who has some crediability stood up and said something.
I think the saying, "You can be a fundamentalist but you don't have to act like one" is the way many feel about those who claim to be fundamentalists.
Many fundamentalists are good students of scripture and are doing their best to disciple others and live for Christ. But those kind are repulsed by the kind who make great claims and exaggerate what they claim as truth.
Many fundamentalists are good students of scripture and are doing their best to disciple others and live for Christ. But those kind are repulsed by the kind who make great claims and exaggerate what they claim as truth.
quote:
"He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004."
After reading the above statement, I have to reflect on Paul, the "salary" that he received, and what he "gave back". He paid with his life to promote the Gospel...oh...and that was after being the poster boy for physical abuse (beatings, stonings, etc). So, what was it that Rick gave back while making millions and living a comfortable life?
"He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004."
After reading the above statement, I have to reflect on Paul, the "salary" that he received, and what he "gave back". He paid with his life to promote the Gospel...oh...and that was after being the poster boy for physical abuse (beatings, stonings, etc). So, what was it that Rick gave back while making millions and living a comfortable life?
eloidalmanutha
New Member
I am speechless . . . may God have mercy on us all . . .
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Could you show us how the fact that 75% of the people came to Christ through the ministry there creates a fruitless church. They have planted over 40 churches now. Explain how that is fruitless. They disciple people. Could you explain how that is fruitless. Thousands of people are in home Bible studies and other ministries. Explain how that is fruitless.
Maybe you do not agree with his theology or some other things. But could you explian how God has given him a fruitless life.
Saddleback never built a church until they were about 10,000 people. Could you explain how that is fruitless?
Charles Meadows
New Member
"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against,"
That's one of the best statements I've ever heard. Bravo Rick Warren!
That's one of the best statements I've ever heard. Bravo Rick Warren!
I am speechless . . . may God have mercy on us all . . .
He gives back a large majority of his money and people then bring Paul into the picture, as if Rick Warren should die right now because he made some money. He should sacrifice his life (as if the person who posted that is going to go martyr himself tonight), well my friend he is dedicating his life to the Christian cause. He has dedicated his life to noble causes, such as the salvation of souls and poverty in Africa, while others seem to have dedicated their life to noble causes such as making sure woman where dresses, men don’t wear goatees, everyone has their King James ready (1611 that is, with the apocrypha) and no one listens to music with drums in it. I have a feeling that’s the fundamentalism he is talking about and rightly so. I wonder if everyone would be willing to post their own pastors erroneous theological statements, or is your pastor perfect?
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Could you show us how the fact that 75% of the people came to Christ through the ministry there creates a fruitless church. They have planted over 40 churches now. Explain how that is fruitless. They disciple people. Could you explain how that is fruitless. Thousands of people are in home Bible studies and other ministries. Explain how that is fruitless.
Maybe you do not agree with his theology or some other things. But could you explian how God has given him a fruitless life.
Saddleback never built a church until they were about 10,000 people. Could you explain how that is fruitless? </font>[/QUOTE]Fruit of the Spirit is??????? Gal 5:22,23 and Eph 5:9
The huge warning signs I had when reading that lengthy transcript from Key West is the fact that Warren repeatedly refused to make the distinction between the true gospel and the false gospel clear. He says he has a lot in common with Jews and Catholics, for example, and, although he did say those who don't accept Jesus go to hell, he essentially said that event would be "nearly impossible" because a person would have to refuse God's love.
Huh? What about sin? Repentance?
I couldn't CARE LESS how much money he gives away or how many AIDS babies he has kissed. We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.
In fact, the PDL doesn't even mention the resurrection one time. Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the gospel. Warren is missing it, folks.
Huh? What about sin? Repentance?
I couldn't CARE LESS how much money he gives away or how many AIDS babies he has kissed. We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.
In fact, the PDL doesn't even mention the resurrection one time. Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the gospel. Warren is missing it, folks.