Rick Warren opposes fundamentalism

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by Brice:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />For those who don't know, this sort of stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.

Here's the transcript of the forum: http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80

I am speechless . . . may God have mercy on us all . . .

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes you're right; we do need mercy, especially when folks spend their precious time trying to find reasons to persecute Rick Warren, Billy Graham and other Christian leaders.

He gives back a large majority of his money and people then bring Paul into the picture, as if Rick Warren should die right now because he made some money. He should sacrifice his life (as if the person who posted that is going to go martyr himself tonight), well my friend he is dedicating his life to the Christian cause. He has dedicated his life to noble causes, such as the salvation of souls and poverty in Africa, while others seem to have dedicated their life to noble causes such as making sure woman where dresses, men don’t wear goatees, everyone has their King James ready (1611 that is, with the apocrypha) and no one listens to music with drums in it. I have a feeling that’s the fundamentalism he is talking about and rightly so. I wonder if everyone would be willing to post their own pastors erroneous theological statements, or is your pastor perfect? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]they are preaching another gospel - judge . . . expose . . . withdraw

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
It is the heart that God sees, not the amount. Ananais and Sapphira also gave so all could see their generosity. [/QUOTE

. . . we should not even imply that Warren, or anyone else, is doing charity "just for the publicity it may bring".

You shall know them by their fruit - a corrupt tree can bring forth NO GOOD FRUIT [Matt 15:7-20]. We are to judge the church. After reading the link that Ivey provided . . . corrupt tree would be a compliment. </font>

==My response to you was not about the teachings of Rick Warren but rather about your implication that he only gives money for the attention it brings him. I pointed out that your claim to judge his motives is highly unBiblical. So I am not sure how your reply here in any way justifies your earlier statement.

We certainly can, and in areas should, be critical of his teachings. However we cannot judge his motives for giving. Doing so is crossing the line into an unBiblical behavior.

Martin.

 

[tinytim]

Our church is starting the PDL campaign tommorrow. I attended the kick-off tonight and his sermon was wonderful.

I just don't understand what is wrong with the concept of PDL.

I hold to the fundamentals, but the legalists have stolen that word and don't you dare call me a "fundamentalist".

Around here that means, Women keep silence, KJVO, Woman can't wear pants, etc.

I agree with Rick.

 

[tinytim]

I would rather show the fruit that Rick does than the fruit the legalists do.

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by bjonson:
The huge warning signs I had when reading that lengthy transcript from Key West is the fact that Warren repeatedly refused to make the distinction between the true gospel and the false gospel clear. He says he has a lot in common with Jews and Catholics, for example, and, although he did say those who don't accept Jesus go to hell, he essentially said that event would be "nearly impossible" because a person would have to refuse God's love.

Huh? What about sin? Repentance?

I couldn't CARE LESS how much money he gives away or how many AIDS babies he has kissed. We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.

In fact, the PDL doesn't even mention the resurrection one time. Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the gospel. Warren is missing it, folks.

And by him giving his time and money he is fulfilling certain aspects of the Gospel. Last time I read my Bible, taking care of the less fortunate was still there. Your premise has major holes.

Your problem is that he didn’t make a clear distinction between himself and Catholicism in THIS instance. If you took a minute to listen to his sermons, they consistently (doctrinally) make distinctions between Saddleback and Rome. Do you walk around saying, “hey I’m not a catholic”, I would think not, but it shows in your doctrine (The same could be said for Warren).

You have a problem with the fact that Warren didn’t mention the resurrection this time. Once again your premise is faulty. You say that he doesn’t mention it this time, thus implying he doesn’t believe it or preach it. That is a 100% erroneous assumption and once again a baseless accusation. Does your pastor talk about the resurrection in every conversation? Does he talk about the resurrection in most conversations? I would think not. Not every book or every conversation will have the resurrection account in it. This is obviously not inherently wrong. Paul consistently addresses human concerns without mentioning the resurrection. Warren is living out his faith and, although not perfect, is doing what he can to make this world a better place. It is very sad that everyman in the national eye has to get potshots taken at him on a regular basis.

 

[tinytim]

Using that kind of logic, we could say that the Book of Esther is ungodly since it doesn't mention "God" in it.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
[qb] You shall know them by their fruit - a corrupt tree can bring forth NO GOOD FRUIT [Matt 15:7-20]. We are to judge the church. After reading the link that Ivey provided . . . corrupt tree would be a compliment.

Could you show us how the fact that 75% of the people came to Christ through the ministry there creates a fruitless church. They have planted over 40 churches now. Explain how that is fruitless. They disciple people. Could you explain how that is fruitless. Thousands of people are in home Bible studies and other ministries. Explain how that is fruitless.

Maybe you do not agree with his theology or some other things. But could you explian how God has given him a fruitless life.

Saddleback never built a church until they were about 10,000 people. Could you explain how that is fruitless? </font>

Fruit of the Spirit is??????? Gal 5:22,23 and Eph 5:9

How does that answer my questions? How do you get some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty from your answer?

Mt. 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Jn. 15:4,5 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."

Mt. 4:19, "And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."

Mt. 28:19,20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

The fruit of one's life is not just the fruit of the spirit but disciples out of obedience to Christ.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by Martin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
It is the heart that God sees, not the amount. Ananais and Sapphira also gave so all could see their generosity. [/QUOTE

. . . we should not even imply that Warren, or anyone else, is doing charity "just for the publicity it may bring".

You shall know them by their fruit - a corrupt tree can bring forth NO GOOD FRUIT [Matt 15:7-20]. We are to judge the church. After reading the link that Ivey provided . . . corrupt tree would be a compliment. </font>

==My response to you was not about the teachings of Rick Warren but rather about your implication that he only gives money for the attention it brings him. I pointed out that your claim to judge his motives is highly unBiblical. So I am not sure how your reply here in any way justifies your earlier statement.

We certainly can, and in areas should, be critical of his teachings. However we cannot judge his motives for giving. Doing so is crossing the line into an unBiblical behavior.

Martin. </font>[/QUOTE]If someone is preaching, teaching, selling heresy [another gospel], I hardly think that person is giving unto God. The fruit of the Spirit is TRUTH. Without it, you have nothing.

Here is the link that discusses what the gospel is to Rick, what he is doing with his program, and what his future plans are. They do not fit anywhere within the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Please, please read it.

http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80

[thanx again Ivey for originally posting this]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by bjonson:
We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.

You must be blind. How could oyu say he doesn't give out the gospel when 75% of the people who become members were led to Christ through a ministry of Saddleback.

What could be said about the church you attend?

 

[tinytim]

Originally posted by bjonson:
Huh? What about sin? Repentance?

We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.

That's funny I just came from one of his messages, and Boom, there it was.

He pointed out that you cannot truly worship God unless you have been saved by Jesus.

Do I win something for finding it?

Why, he even mentioned Jesus dying on the cross for my sins, the resurrection and him coming again. Isn't that something.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by bjonson:
We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.

Maybe I missed it, but I could not find it on your church's website.

However I did find, "Only the Trustees, acting upon the recommendation of the Elders, may recommend the dissolution of this corporation to the congregation." Corporation?

At the webpage http://www.clearcreekchapel.org/Mission_vision.htm
I did see Purpose.

 

[tinytim]

Not to mention he said something like, when a church refuses to witness, they are basically saying to their neighbors that they can go to Hell!

I walked out of church knowing I need to be closer to God. And when i went to the grocery store afterwards I saw people in a new light.
People I see everyday, I saw them differently.

Man he sounds like a heretic !!! (Tim says sarcastically))

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by bjonson:
This doesn't surprise me. Look at this article and note especially the last two paragraphs:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/religion/13573441.htm

I don't know much about Rick Warren, but judging by the last two paragraphs of the article you referred to, I agree with him one hundred percent!

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bjonson:
We're talking about the Gospel - and with Warren, you can't find it.

Maybe I missed it, but I could not find it on your church's website.

However I did find, "Only the Trustees, acting upon the recommendation of the Elders, may recommend the dissolution of this corporation to the congregation." Corporation?

At the webpage http://www.clearcreekchapel.org/Mission_vision.htm
I did see Purpose. </font>[/QUOTE]You did miss it. You are on the wrong link:

http://www.clearcreekchapel.org/Articles%20of%20Faith.htm

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by tinytim:
Our church is starting the PDL campaign tommorrow. I attended the kick-off tonight and his sermon was wonderful.

I just don't understand what is wrong with the concept of PDL.

I hold to the fundamentals, but the legalists have stolen that word and don't you dare call me a "fundamentalist".

Around here that means, Women keep silence, KJVO, Woman can't wear pants, etc.

I agree with Rick.

spend a few hours here tinytim:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html

 

[All about Grace]

Bjon,

Do you find it a bit ironic that you are such a harsh critic of Warren and yet you attend a church that focuses on purpose? If I were just browsing your site, I would assume there is a Purpose-Driven influence. Your 3 E paradigm is Warrenesquie for sure.

 

[Bro. James]

Rick Warren shows his true colors in his title: Senior Pastor and FOUNDER of Saddleback Church.

Jesus Christ is the founder of all New Testament Churches.

The Apostle Paul received no royalties for his writings--he did get whipped and imprisoned alot.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[eloidalmanutha]

The problem is not that Rick is not preaching a gosple message - it's that he is preaching "another gospel". His message is not living a repentant and humbled life before God, but a purpose driven life. The focus is on man, not God. What "we" must do to change the world "for" God. That is not part of the great commission. Adding to the church is not what God requires of us. The Holy Spirit adds.

Tiny Tim said:
"I walked out of church knowing I need to be closer to God. And when i went to the grocery store afterwards I saw people in a new light.
People I see everyday, I saw them differently."

So did you approach anyone and share the gospel or just delight in the fact that you "see people in a new light and see them differently"? And now that you all of sudden have some divine revelation that you are suppose to be "closer to God", what is the point of that? Can you support these feelings/opinions with the Word?

As I have said before, heretics and false teachers ALWAYS give you parts of the truth - how else are Christians going to be deceived? Rick is covering up his message which is "all about me" with "it's all about God" and bottom line - that is how people are going to fall away from the faith.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
Bjon,

Do you find it a bit ironic that you are such a harsh critic of Warren and yet you attend a church that focuses on purpose? If I were just browsing your site, I would assume there is a Purpose-Driven influence. Your 3 E paradigm is Warrenesquie for sure.

All of Grace,

What I find interesting is that you, as a "lead pastor", are jumping to a conclusion by seeing the work "purpose" on my church's website. If you read the entire book of Faith and Order you will see our emphasis is on magnifying the glory of God through the proclamation of God's Word. There is nothing "Warrenesque" about having a purpose that, at its core, is the mangification of the Glory of God. That is hardly Warren's goal in PDL.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I think if Jesus were here today in disguise He would be roundly unpopular in many fundamentalist churches, being labelled a liberal.