Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[Brother Bob]

PDL is another word for fluff!

Care to amplify on the word so we know what you mean? raise:

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I would like you to list what is not biblical about the five purposes, with Scripture, please .... if there is so much error thay you have discerned from the Bible, it should be no problem listing Scripture that states RW's five purposes are not biblical, instead of personal opinions ...

That's a convenient straw man for PDL but this is not about purposes - whether or not the purposes or doctrinal statements are Biblical is immaterial. Doctrinal statements are very useful in a Biblical church. But the purposes, like doctrinal statements, are nothing more than PROFESSIONS, and as such make very effective smokescreens. Rick Warren is selling his own brand of Christianity (which IS the change Rick Warren is talking about) that is driven by worldly marketing, philosophy, and management machinery, and is very careful to profess Biblical authority, early and often. That is no accident. We must remember that false teachers on the average are probably 90% Biblical, and the most dangerous false teachers are the ones who are the most Biblical, while simultaneously appealing to the flesh. In that sense, I give Rick Warren the highest of marks.

Are you insinutating an anarchist approach to church leadership? You don't believe God has appointed leaders in a church to...get this...LEAD? The "membership covenant" is a personal covenant signed by a member who WANTS to join the church. For the great autonomous arguments I hear here on the BB, autonomy applies at Saddleback as well. I would rather have the leadership of the church govern the church, as congregationally ran churches are not the biblical model (see Acts). To bash RW for what he does at his church, when other pastors do similar things within their four walls is foolish.

It's not about church government or even leadership models. If, as suggested in the above post, instead of thinking of an argument, you would think about the implications of a signed agreement intended to discourage, if not outright prohibit, any questioning of a leader, you might see the danger.

Pastors who hold the Word of God in its proper place do the opposite - they ENCOURAGE members to rightly divide the Word and point it out anytime it is not rightly divided. Warren can't do that because the purpose-driven movement would fall apart if he did. It's foundation is unity and concensus, not the Word of God.

After the bashing of RW here on the BB, I have investigated it for myself, even reading the book and listening to RW preach.

Sorry, but I can tell by your answers that you haven't gone very far into the research. If you are under the influence of Rick Warren, I pray that you will.

My purpose is to inform the body of Christ and warn them of danger whenever and wherever possible, since today's culture requires most of their time. Very few people have the time to unpack something like PDL. I have no interest in trading shots back and forth. So far, in only two posts, you have directly or indirectly called me an ignoramus, a liar, a slanderer, a legalist, and a fool. I'm not interested in this kind of unprofitable dialogue, so you can take the last shot if you like.

If you want to discuss, or even constructively debate PDL I will, given the time and a separate thread, but you're gonna have to go much deeper than this and do the work that's required to get there. We have not even scratched the surface here. It also requires the elimination of bias and emotion, which I suspect will be difficult for you. But if you honestly want to go there, I will help you.

:Fish:

 

[Pete]

......and 100 years from now will be askin'----"Rick Warren??? Who in Sam Hill is he????"

........

But Brother blackbird, I ask that NOW :laugh:

 

[webdog]

That's a convenient straw man for PDL but this is not about purposes - whether or not the purposes or doctrinal statements are Biblical is immaterial. Doctrinal statements are very useful in a Biblical church. But the purposes, like doctrinal statements, are nothing more than PROFESSIONS, and as such make very effective smokescreens. Rick Warren is selling his own brand of Christianity (which IS the change Rick Warren is talking about) that is driven by worldly marketing, philosophy, and management machinery, and is very careful to profess Biblical authority, early and often. That is no accident. We must remember that false teachers on the average are probably 90% Biblical, and the most dangerous false teachers are the ones who are the most Biblical, while simultaneously appealing to the flesh. In that sense, I give Rick Warren the highest of marks.

It's not about church government or even leadership models. If, as suggested in the above post, instead of thinking of an argument, you would think about the implications of a signed agreement intended to discourage, if not outright prohibit, any questioning of a leader, you might see the danger.

Pastors who hold the Word of God in its proper place do the opposite - they ENCOURAGE members to rightly divide the Word and point it out anytime it is not rightly divided. Warren can't do that because the purpose-driven movement would fall apart if he did. It's foundation is unity and concensus, not the Word of God.
Sorry, but I can tell by your answers that you haven't gone very far into the research. If you are under the influence of Rick Warren, I pray that you will.

My purpose is to inform the body of Christ and warn them of danger whenever and wherever possible, since today's culture requires most of their time. Very few people have the time to unpack something like PDL. I have no interest in trading shots back and forth. So far, in only two posts, you have directly or indirectly called me an ignoramus, a liar, a slanderer, a legalist, and a fool. I'm not interested in this kind of unprofitable dialogue, so you can take the last shot if you like.

If you want to discuss, or even constructively debate PDL I will, given the time and a separate thread, but you're gonna have to go much deeper than this and do the work that's required to get there. We have not even scratched the surface here. It also requires the elimination of bias and emotion, which I suspect will be difficult for you. But if you honestly want to go there, I will help you.

:Fish:

...and after all of this hub bub, not one single Scripture, but STILL only personal opinions stated as fact. You don't really know about PDL, or if you did you would be able to provide Scripture that refutes it. Thanks for playing.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Your postings speak for themselves.

 

[webdog]

...and still no Scripture...

 

[npetreley]

...were you pointing out his errors as they pertain to calvinism, or errors as they pertain to the Bible, because biblically its' accurate.

They were Biblical errors, some of which stem from his abuse of the Greek.

I've already covered this ground in other threads, and there are many more errors than I've covered here.

 

[npetreley]

Care to amplify on the word so we know what you mean? raise:

Didn't you read the rest of the post? I think he described it pretty well.

 

[Brother Bob]

I ask him but I guess when you addess one Calvinist you get the whole bunch.raise:

 

[Revmitchell]

He doesn't imply that at all, this is what you read out of it. Cultures change. If you think it's sinful to change along with culture, go back to wearing a robe and sandals as were worn in the very first church.

The saying "ignorance is bliss" doesn't apply when slandering a fellow believer's ministry. It's obvious you have a vandetta against RW, as do many "resisters". Warren may call them resisters, I call them "legalists". Not once EVER has he said to follow him, or listen to him rather than the Word of God, or to sign a "covenant" to not question what they are taught. This is a flat out lie. Like I said prior...spoken from ignorance.

On page 164, Warren says, “God warns us over and over not to criticize, compare, or judge each other. ... Whenever I judge another believer, four things instantly happen: I lose fellowship with God, I expose my own pride, I set myself to be judged by God, and I harm the fellowship of the church.”

Rick Warren requires his church members to sign a covenant that he or she promises to protect the unity of the church (The Purpose Driven Life, p. 167).

He does have members sign a covenant not to disrupt the unity of the church. What qualifies for this disruption of unity? Well let's let him say it.

“God won’t ask about your religious background or doctrinal views. The only thing that will matter is, did you accept what Jesus did for you and did you learn to love and trust him?” (Warren: 34).

What does he mean by this? Why are doctrinal views not necessary? What part of scripture declared this?

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints
Scripture commands us to do otherwise. Warrens Ecumenicalism is dangerous. Attending conferences with Robert Schuller(His mentor)Scary!) TD Jakes who denies the trinity and muslims, who all claim some form of relationship with a Jesus but denies the one of scripture shows just exactly what he means.

I am a blood bought born again sealed by the Holy Ghost heaven bound Christian. And Warrens gospel and theology is not the same as mine. However, I would be glad to be shown that I am wrong. But I am not.

 

[npetreley]

Here is an essay on Rick Warren's torture of Scripture.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/warren/scripture.htm


​

 

[webdog]

He does have members sign a covenant not to disrupt the unity of the church. What qualifies for this disruption of unity? Well let's let him say it.
What does he mean by this? Why are doctrinal views not necessary? What part of scripture declared this?

Wow, did you ever take his quotes out of context! Anyone can string together a bunch of one liners to prove their point. I could probably debunk calvinism in this same fashion by doing this with one of Piper's books.

You mean to tell me that when you die, God will give you a quiz on your stand about wearing suits to church, whether you were a calvinist or arminian, your take on eternal security, and other points of theology that are debated? Hardly. He will either see us covered by Christ's blood or not. Period. Do you think either calvinism or arminianism are doctrinal necessity to understand? Neither does RW.

BTW, you believe (as you say) that members ARE to disrupt the unity of the Church? Remind me not to attend your church! Leaders lead, congregation falls under the authority of the leaders God has put into place. This is the correct church model given us in Scripture.

However, I would be glad to be shown that I am wrong. But I am not

.
...then there is not much room for anyone to show you that you are wrong, huh?

I'm tired of beating this dead horse. This topic was discussed in detail here...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=6143&highlight=rick+warren

 

[IveyLeaguer]

...and still no Scripture...

Oh, goodness ...... from my first response to you, way back at post #12 ...

This is about Biblical vs. non-Biblical Christianity, and Biblical Christianity doesn't change or modify its message or ways to conform to or please the current culture. In fact, it commands us NOT to do it (Rom 12:2 and many others). Current culture is the way of the world, and the Bible makes that distinction from Genesis to Revelation.

If they are real Christians THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN CHANGED, by God Himself! And if they are sharp enough to discern the subtleties of the purpose-driven movement chances are they have been TRANSFORMED, to a meaningful degree, by the Word of God (also Rom 12:2).

Not that it matters, because you've avoided the substance whether scripture was mentioned or not. I offered to go down that road with you but you just threw it back in my face. You've demonstrated your immaturity, and I don't believe you are either sincere or intellectually honest. Again, I don't have time for childish arguments and games of tit-for-tat - you'll have to find someone else to distract. The only thing you have shown is you know how to be argumentative.

:Fish:

 

[npetreley]

A fascinating story on Rick Warren's "second reformation".

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=8280

Scary quote:

"The first Reformation was about belief; this one's going to be about behavior," said Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California and author of the best-selling The Purpose-Driven Life. "The first one was about creeds; this one's going to be about our deeds. The first one divided the church; this time it will unify the church."

​

 

[webdog]

Oh, goodness ...... from my first response to you, way back at post #12 ...

Not that it matters, because you've avoided the substance whether scripture was mentioned or not. I offered to go down that road with you but you just threw it back in my face. You've demonstrated your immaturity, and I don't believe you are either sincere or intellectually honest. Again, I don't have time for childish arguments and games of tit-for-tat - you'll have to find someone else to distract.

:Fish:

When all fails, resort to "I'm more mature than you", works every time. I have avoided nothing, I asked for something so simple as Scripture that points to Rick Warren being as heretical as you claim. What do you come back with? Romans 12, and it doesn't even deal with the accusations that you made. If it's as crystal clear as you make it, providing Scripture should not be a problem, especially in the light of the verse you posted. If you think putting your money where your mouth is are only "childish arguments", I wouldn't be so quick to accuse anyone of being intellectually dishonest.

 

[webdog]

A fascinating story on Rick Warren's "second reformation".​

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=8280​

Scary quote:​

How convenient you left off...

Warren led the assembly in "praying against the global giants" that lead to fear, loss of direction, and lack of purpose, noting spiritual emptiness is the greatest giant.

 

[Paul33]

I got a strong reaction from someone regarding Warren's book PDL. Apparently, his book is being misused or misunderstood, or maybe its being understood perfectly.

The reaction came because marriages are falling apart because one person in the marriage is now seeking hiis/her purpose and leaving the marriage to do that.

Since Warren's use of Scripture is so scandalous in the book, I can see how this can happen.

Are there other stories out there of PDL breaking up marriages and causing individuals to seek their purpose outside the standards of Scripture?

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I got a strong reaction from someone regarding Warren's book PDL. Apparently, his book is being misused or misunderstood, or maybe its being understood perfectly.

The reaction came because marriages are falling apart because one person in the marriage is now seeking hiis/her purpose and leaving the marriage to do that.

Since Warren's use of Scripture is so scandalous in the book, I can see how this can happen.

Are there other stories out there of PDL breaking up marriages and causing individuals to seek their purpose outside the standards of Scripture?

PDL feeds on self-fulfillment. The natural result of marketing the fulfillment and satisfaction of felt-needs as a lure to the church.

:Fish:

 

[npetreley]

PDL feeds on self-fulfillment. The natural result of marketing the fulfillment and satisfaction of felt-needs as a lure to the church.

:Fish:

Right. Read the link I provided on his abuse of scripture. There are other sites (don't have the links handy) that do an even better job of showing how he twists scripture and selectively uses mistranslations to present the "meaning" as self-fulfillment. In some cases, this is exactly the opposite of what the scripture is saying. The whole PDL movement is about appealing to a person's pride and dangling self-satisfaction in front of them.

The scariest thing is that he manages to mix this thinly masked humanism with enough truth to make it all sound right to many people.

 

[2BHizown]

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html

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