Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[webdog]

I got a strong reaction from someone regarding Warren's book PDL. Apparently, his book is being misused or misunderstood, or maybe its being understood perfectly.

The reaction came because marriages are falling apart because one person in the marriage is now seeking hiis/her purpose and leaving the marriage to do that.

Since Warren's use of Scripture is so scandalous in the book, I can see how this can happen.

Are there other stories out there of PDL breaking up marriages and causing individuals to seek their purpose outside the standards of Scripture?

Classic...blame RW because someone has left their wife to find their "purpose"... and not the person who is actually commiting the sin. He must have read the book through the same glasses as those in this thread

 

[2BHizown]

Chapter by chapter critique of the PDL book here:

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?795

 

[BD17]

He doesn't imply that at all, this is what you read out of it. Cultures change. If you think it's sinful to change along with culture, go back to wearing a robe and sandals as were worn in the very first church.

The saying "ignorance is bliss" doesn't apply when slandering a fellow believer's ministry. It's obvious you have a vandetta against RW, as do many "resisters". Warren may call them resisters, I call them "legalists". Not once EVER has he said to follow him, or listen to him rather than the Word of God, or to sign a "covenant" to not question what they are taught. This is a flat out lie. Like I said prior...spoken from ignorance.

Actually... if a pastor signs on to do Warrens, purpose driven church series, they have to sign a "contract" that states they will only preach Warren's sermon's and play the music he wants played.

How do I know this because I used to attend a church that "signed up" to do that series. So this is not spoken in ignorance.

 

[webdog]

Actually... if a pastor signs on to do Warrens, purpose driven church series, they have to sign a "contract" that states they will only preach Warren's sermon's and play the music he wants played.

How do I know this because I used to attend a church that "signed up" to do that series. So this is not spoken in ignorance.

Maybe not ignorance, but not fully informed. Our Church did likewise, and there is no "contract" whatsoever. The pastor, worship leader and all small group leaders agreed to no such thing. This is absurd, and whoever told you this was less than truthful, to say it kindly.

 

[rbell]

Actually... if a pastor signs on to do Warrens, purpose driven church series, they have to sign a "contract" that states they will only preach Warren's sermon's and play the music he wants played.

How do I know this because I used to attend a church that "signed up" to do that series. So this is not spoken in ignorance.

funny...we didn't have to...neither did the two sister churches near us...

 

[J.D.]

Chapter by chapter critique of the PDL book here:

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?795

Leave it to Banner of Truth to nail it right in the bullseye. Thank God for them.

 

[webdog]

Leave it to Banner of Truth to nail it right in the bullseye. Thank God for them.

Man, a calvinist agreeing with a calvinistic site...imagine that!

 

[J.D.]

Man, a calvinist agreeing with a calvinistic site...imagine that!

Oh there are PLENTY of anti-warren arminians out there and you know it.

 

[webdog]

Oh there are PLENTY of anti-warren arminians out there and you know it.

Who cares and what's the point? There's plenty of anti-webdog arminians, too. So what? I'm supposed to hold RW up to other people's opinions? That sight has a problem with RW's "salvation is offered to all" (as any normal calvinist would), how he referenced the Scripture in the back, and his choice of translations. The main parts of the book are not argued (5 purposes, except the point on soteriology).

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... There are other sites (don't have the links handy) that do an even better job ....

Right. I don't like that site and have avoided it for 3 or 4 years now. Unfortunately, there are people in the discernment community who may be well meaning but go way too far, and end up doing as much harm as good.

The thing about the discernment (or watchman) ministry is you better be called of God to do it. And you must spend the majority of your time in the hard grind of maintaining balance, knowing that the judgment of another's work or ministry is a serious and "terrible" thing.

Anyway, here's a piece that gives a pretty good idea of the methodology used to deal with "resisters".

Dealing With Resisters

:Fish:

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... There are other sites (don't have the links handy) that do an even better job ....

Right. I don't like that site and have avoided it for 3 or 4 years now. Unfortunately, there are people in the discernment community who may be well meaning but go way too far, and end up doing as much harm as good.

The thing about the discernment (or watchman) ministry is you better be called of God to do it. And you must spend the majority of your time in the hard grind of maintaining balance, knowing that the judgment of another's work or ministry is a serious and "terrible" thing.

Anyway, here's a piece that gives a pretty good idea of the methodology used to deal with "resisters".

Dealing With Resisters

:Fish:

 

[IveyLeaguer]

A fascinating story on Rick Warren's "second reformation".

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=8280

Scary quote:

"The first Reformation was about belief; this one's going to be about behavior," said Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California and author of the best-selling The Purpose-Driven Life. "The first one was about creeds; this one's going to be about our deeds. The first one divided the church; this time it will unify the church."

​

No doubt this should rattle any Christian that knows the Bible, and it does unsettle many. But the most unsettling thing is to behold the great majority who are not bothered by it at all.

This leads into ecumenical unification, the P.E.A.C.E plan, and other geopolitical connections which is off-topic but something every Christian should be keeping a sharp eye on.

:Fish:

 

[webdog]

No doubt this should rattle any Christian that knows the Bible, and it does unsettle many. But the most unsettling thing is to behold the great majority who are not bothered by it at all.

This leads into ecumenical unification, the P.E.A.C.E plan, and other geopolitical connections which is off-topic but something every Christian should be keeping a sharp eye on.

:Fish:

What "second reformation" is RW talking about?

Warren led the assembly in "praying against the global giants" that lead to fear, loss of direction, and lack of purpose, noting spiritual emptiness is the greatest giant.

 

[Jarthur001]

​

No doubt this should rattle any Christian that knows the Bible, and it does unsettle many. But the most unsettling thing is to behold the great majority who are not bothered by it at all.

This leads into ecumenical unification, the P.E.A.C.E plan, and other geopolitical connections which is off-topic but something every Christian should be keeping a sharp eye on.

:Fish:

Hello,

Thanks IveyLeaguer for sharing your thoughts and the links. We each will follow the path we see fit that honors God in the way we see God. This link is yet another reason I stay away from this type of church. Others see it as a reason to join. As said before, this is not new, its the same thing tried before under a new hat using new key words to mass a following. What is new, are the number of Baptist churches that have fallen into this way of thinking. This has ecumenical wrote all over the face of it. Not that we must follow every notion of the past, but there were good reason why just 100 years ago our Baptist fathers resisted such ties. It has only taken us a short season to forget our stand.

Rick Warren’s approach to church growth is a man-centered pragmatism. Of course our churches will grow faster if we please men and give them what they want. Yet, the BIBLE says we are to please God, not men. The idea of separatist will not be held by some in the Baptist faith nowadays. Rather, we see a ridicule of the old fashioned, and a disdain for separatist. There are things we can learn from Rick. Yet we cannot fall for "anything goes" view of worship. Even if your church takes up this means of church growth, you must place stop signs on growth where paths lead to dishonor.


In Christ...James

 

[OrovilleTim]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Remember when he talks about "resisters", to use his term, Warren is talking about born again, regenerate, loyal Believers - in other words, people like you and me, people like most of the people on this board, people who refuse to sign a 'covenant' pledging not to question what they are taught - people who, bottom line, had rather follow the Word of God than him.

Warren loves to frame the issue as stiff old-timers or traditionalists vs. everyone else, when what it really is is Biblical Christianity vs. its cloaked Counterfeit.
[/FONT]

I saw the subject and wandered in here. I've had some real uncomfortable feelings about Warren. Not when I "plugged in" doing the PDL (twice!), but when I did some real soulsearching on many of the changes that a Church is "forced" through to conform with his ideas.

When I was digging around I came across Paul Proctor. A lot of what he said reall resonanted with what I felt inside. But, I thought "oh, he's just bitter over something", but so much of it made sense and fit with what I had always beleived, but it was so un-"touchy feely" like I'd been being conditioned to lately.

I am glad to see that there are other "resisters" out there too. I don't feel so alone. I'm not a big conspiracy theory guy, but I do know that "something ain't right".

 

[JJB]

Info Please

I am looking at the links that people have provided about RW, many thanks. Does anyone know of a site that has done some detailed study of his book and church and provided analysis. I don't have the time and energy to look into him and appreciate any direction.

 

[J.D.]

Go to newswithviews.com and check out the Paul Proctor archives. I've been reading his articles for years. He's got the goods on RW.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I am looking at the links that people have provided about RW, many thanks. Does anyone know of a site that has done some detailed study of his book and church and provided analysis. I don't have the time and energy to look into him and appreciate any direction.

Bob DeWaay is very solid and has a new, very good book out about PDL. Here's one of his older articles that is a pretty good place to start. He wrote several good ones after this one, and they are in the archive a page back from this article:

Critical Issues Commentary, January 2004

I agree with J.D. that Proctor's articles have depth and there is an archive there. His articles go back to 2001 and he is as knowledgeable about what's going on as anybody. Proctor is hard-hitting, wastes no words, and will go right up to line - but I don't recall him ever crossing it.

Paul Proctor Archive

Godspeed!

:Fish:

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... We each will follow the path we see fit that honors God in the way we see God. This link is yet another reason I stay away from this type of church. Others see it as a reason to join. As said before, this is not new, its the same thing tried before under a new hat using new key words to mass a following. What is new, are the number of Baptist churches that have fallen into this way of thinking. This has ecumenical wrote all over the face of it. Not that we must follow every notion of the past, but there were good reason why just 100 years ago our Baptist fathers resisted such ties. It has only taken us a short season to forget our stand.

Rick Warren’s approach to church growth is a man-centered pragmatism. Of course our churches will grow faster if we please men and give them what they want. Yet, the BIBLE says we are to please God, not men. The idea of separatist will not be held by some in the Baptist faith nowadays. Rather, we see a ridicule of the old fashioned, and a disdain for separatist. There are things we can learn from Rick. Yet we cannot fall for "anything goes" view of worship. Even if your church takes up this means of church growth, you must place stop signs on growth where paths lead to dishonor.

Well said. I agree.

:Fish:

 

[tinytim]

The thing we need to remind ourselves is this

There's been "Purpose Driven" ideas and movements long before Rick Warren was in diapers---there was Purpose Driven in the '50's, 60's, & 70's(long before Warren was even old enough to shave!!!)

When Warren's fad passes away and when Warren is laying down in a fixed horizontal position permanitely---the idea will take off from somebody else who'll rise up from "Store Front to Mega Church"---the guy will write a book and it'll take off like a F-18 Hornet from the flight deck of the Kitty Hawk!!!! and folks will follow the new kid on the block and 100 years from now will be askin'----"Rick Warren??? Who in Sam Hill is he????"

Blackbird

Absolutely true! The church has had a purpose since Christ said, "upon this rock......"