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Rightly dividing 2 Thessalonians 2:13

JD731

Well-Known Member
Did God know before the individual was born whether or not they would live their entire life in sin and without ever believing in Christ and die and go to helll ?
God knows all things by one eternal act of knowing.

Yes or no Then answer this, whose will was it that the individual be born into this life ?

If you have a father and mother the question is answered for you. God is not your father according to the flesh. You cannot blame God that you are a sinner but you can blame your dad and his father, Adam. Knowing that all men were under the sentence of death gave opportunity for God to put his grace on display and his mercy on display by enduring the sentence for sin for us all. He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Brightflame52, what you preach here daily is not the Christian faith. You need to repent and believe the gospel. You are not special as you claim.

But to answer your question. If there is a way for a man and woman to practice family planning, then your question is answered. Procreation is what the marriage act is for and God expresses that he is for large families.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
As always, you ignore key phrases in the passage to make it fit your belief.

The passage does not say we are “chosen” through faith in the truth. The passage says we were chosen by God from the beginning for salvation..

Paul them elaborates on how salvation occurs… through sanctification by God Holy Spirit and faith in the truth. Paul is not addressing how the choosing occurs. That idea is mangling the Word of God to force pre conceived bias into the passage.

The only time, that I can find, that scripture tells us “why” we are chosen is that is because of the kind intention of God’s will.

Only God gets the glory for our salvation.

Peace to you

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The beginning Paul is referring to is clearly the preaching of the gospel message and the salvation we obtain is because we have believed and been sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

God before creation foreknew all those that would freely trust in Him but we are chosen for salvation in time. God called them via the gospel message which they believed {Romans 10:17} and were thus sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

These verses 2Th_2:13-14 are not about initial salvation through trusting the gospel message but rather salvation of those that are in Christ at His return. 2Th 2:1-2
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
So did God know before He created the people that shall perish in their sins, that if He created them they would live their entire life without repentance and faith in Christ and die and go to hell, but chose to create them anyway Yes or no, you know what I mean

BF you continue to ignore the obvious. When you say "they would live their entire life without repentance and faith in Christ and die and go to hell" You keep forgetting that when viewed through your calvinist divine determinism those that lived their whole lives denying God did so because your version of God determined they do so.

That version of God is not biblical as you have made Him worse than Satan. Satan tries to draw people into sin and your version of God determines the sin they will do and then condemns them for it.
 

th1bill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sir, your view is from the beginning "of the Creation." which adds and is in violation. If you say, they are "understood," then so are mine. Your defense of falsehood is obvious and absurd. You did not either grasp or respond to the fact no one was chosen by being set apart in Christ before Christ died, therefore "from the beginning" must refer to the from the beginning of the New Covenant.
I did not find it important to blast you, and I will not engage your intellectualism with equally crazy replies. I will, however, reply to your assertion this time. You are incorrect because Matthew 27:50-60 describe the events occurring after the passing over into the realm beyond and there we discover the Old Testament Saints marching out of the tombs and, through the Holy City before ascending into Heaven... they were set aside with Yehovah's foreknowledge of the plan of salvation before they heard Yashuah preach, a.k.a. before the Revised Testament we are currently living under.

God made the entire thing so simple a man with only an eighth grade education can understand it.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
God knows all things by one eternal act of knowing.
Okay so lets continue with that thought. If God knew the person who was going to be born is going to hell for their sins, unrepentant, unbelief and then die in their sins, and yet God caused their birth anyway, was it Gods will for that person to be born and die in their sins ? Yes or No Whose choice was it to cause the person to be born ? God or someone else
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
BF you continue to ignore the obvious. When you say "they would live their entire life without repentance and faith in Christ and die and go to hell" You keep forgetting that when viewed through your calvinist divine determinism those that lived their whole lives denying God did so because your version of God determined they do so.
Who determined they would be born ?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God has called all to repentance and all have rejected.

If God chooses people based on what they do (those that chose Him), then you have a works based salvation where God responds to what the man does and then chooses them for salvation.

Scripture reveals God chooses us while we are still rejecting Him, from the kind intention of His will, through the power of God Holy Spirit and we respond to God’s work in our lives with faith in Jesus..

That is grace based salvation

Peace to you

Actually the bible is clear that God has chosen the whole world while we are still sinners.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Note it is not just a select few that God wants to be saved but the whole world

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Here we see that the death of Christ covered the sins for the whole world.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Now here we see that Christ draws all people not just some.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We see that God has provided the means and actually desires that all would be saved so the question, why are not all saved?

According to calvinism it is because God picked out a select group and only they could be saved. But that does not agree with the biblical text and God's stated desire. So they must be another reason that only some are saved and the rest lost.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

So we see that one has to believe prior to being saved.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So it is the individual that has to do freely do this

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

And anyone call do so, it is not limited to a select group.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So we see the order of salvation clearly stated here, we hear, we believe and then we are sealed.

Some have called our faith a work but is this the biblical view?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So we see that faith is not a work but it is the stated requirement of our salvation.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Okay so lets continue with that thought. If God knew the person who was going to be born is going to hell for their sins, unrepentant, unbelief and then die in their sins, and yet God caused their birth anyway, was it Gods will for that person to be born and die in their sins ? Yes or No Whose choice was it to cause the person to be born ? God or someone else
I just need to know if you ever read the Bible with reason and logic.

6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.

Do you see men's will colliding with God's will in the issue of a birth? It is one thing for you fellows to promote a senseless religion but to get upset with people for laughing at you for reasoning below a 5th grade level is remarkable.

There is no birth unless there is a seed first. The seed comes from a man except in one case when it came from God through a woman. Go to the maternity ward at the hospital and it will make more sense to you and you can figure this out.

I would not have this level of sarcasm if this was not such a silly doctrine you folks try to promote.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
That is the CALVINIST REWRITE, changing salvation a Greek noun, into saved, a Greek verb!!!!!!!! They charge others with their malfeasance.
You have made this accusation a few times now. Please explain where I changed the word “salvation” into “saved”?

I have changed nothing, just repeated the plain reading of the text.

You, in the hand, have proudly admitted to changing the words of scripture to fit your understanding.

It appears you are projecting your own malfeasance toward those who are rightly dividing the passage.

Peace to you
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
It's never been God's will for anyone to perish, man chose that for himself.

Even the example of Pharaoh when God hardened his heart, it was the result of God's foreknowledge knowing he he would rebel to the end.

It was not God' will for him to perish, but God did make an example of him as a standard of rebellion.
Romans states very clearly that God raised pharaoh up for that very purpose. In fact, it states God endured with great patience vessels of wrath that were created for destruction to show the riches of His glory to vessels of mercy created to receive mercy.

You are projecting a man centered understanding of what is “fair” upon God and finding that God, as revealed in scripture, fails to live up to your standards.

Because of that fundamentally flawed approach to scripture you will never fully appreciate the grace and mercy God has directed toward you this side of heaven.

Your self righteous denunciation, and rewriting, of God’s Word is truly remarkable.

Peace to you
 
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