Robots and Free Will

[jbh28]

"God desired free moral creatures, not robots. To allow for free worship there must be the opportunity to rebel, for without darkness there is no understanding of light. "

I have been thinking of this for a while and thought I would make a thread. I've seen this stated before in an answer to the problem of evil.

Will we be robots in heaven? Will there be an opportunity to rebel in heaven?

That's why I don't go here with the answer because God can and will defeat evil. We will be in heaven with God for all eternity and there will be no evil.

 

[kyredneck]

...Will we be robots in heaven? Will there be an opportunity to rebel in heaven?

It's been said, and I agree, when all this is over and done with, when time is no more, every creature in the universe will know that there can be only One will.

 

[Skandelon]

Will we be robots in heaven? Will there be an opportunity to rebel in heaven?

Once the rebellion has been experience and defeated then its purpose has been served, but that doesn't mean it wasn't needed to teach us that truth. Once fully conformed and redeemed rebellion will be fully eradicated. A 'robot' never experienced such freedom in order to learn such lessons and accomplish such purposes.

 

[jbh28]

Once the rebellion has been experience and defeated then its purpose has been served, but that doesn't mean it wasn't needed to teach us that truth. Once fully conformed and redeemed rebellion will be fully eradicated. A 'robot' never experienced such freedom in order to learn such lessons and accomplish such purposes.

I have no problem with that. My point was that we can worship God without the opportunity to rebel. God showed his mercy. If there was no sin, there would have been no mercy needed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My sensors indicate an intruder is present. DANGER, DANGER Will Robinson! :tongue3:

 

[Van]

Same ol, same ol, but the obvious truth is dodged yet again. Can we repent if our repentance is predestined and therefore compelled by God?
No, we were doing God's predestined actions when we sinned and we were doing God's predestined actions when we turned by God's compulsion to God. This action would not bring glory to God.

The Calvinist view is without merit, God causes us to sin and then punishes us for the sins He compelled. This is not a rational view and therefore it is hidden as best they can.

 

[Winman]

Heaven may not be exactly as we expect. We might be able to do wrong in heaven. John by mistake worshipped an angel or fellow believer in heaven.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

If John was indeed in heaven when this occurred, he made a mistake, he worshipped an angel or fellow believer, and this person corrected him.

So, perhaps we will never be absolutely 100% perfect, even in heaven.

And perhaps there can even be sickness or physical injury in heaven.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Why would the leaves of the tree of life be needed for healing if there is no sickness or injury in heaven?

I am not making dogmatic statements here, I am simply mentioning these verses that seem to show a person might err or make a mistake in heaven, and that perhaps sickness or injury can occur there. Of course, we would be healed by the leaves of the tree of life and never die.

If so, we will not be robots or puppets in heaven.

 

[jbh28]

Winman, I was referring to moral evil. Will there be moral evil in heaven.

 

[Winman]

Winman, I was referring to moral evil. Will there be moral evil in heaven.

No, I do not believe so. But it will be because Christians have a new incorruptible body that does not tempt us to sin.

1 Pet 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

We have the Spirit now, and the Spirit cannot sin. However we still abide in corruptible bodies that tempt us to sin.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We will not be tempted by the lusts of the flesh in heaven.

But we might be able to make errors in heaven. John was not in his body in Revelation, he was in the Spirit, but he made an error.

And perhaps bacteria will still exist in heaven, perhaps not, and might need to be countered by the healing of the leaves of the tree of life.

We certainly will be active in heaven, so it seems likely we could be injured physically. Perhaps this is all the healing described in Rev 22 is speaking of, I am not absolutely certain.

We'll see when we get there. :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

I have no problem with that. My point was that we can worship God without the opportunity to rebel.

Sure, if God wanted to make the rocks cry out he could, but clearly that is not what he wants. He is pleased by those who freely choose to humble themselves, repent of their rebellion, believe in Him and worship him...the scripture says he "SEEKS" those who worship him. So we aren't talking about what he COULD do, we are talking about what He has revealed to do.

God showed his mercy. If there was no sin, there would have been no mercy needed.

I agree. "God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may show mercy TO ALL." (Rm 11:32)

The same all who are bound are the same all shown mercy.

 

[jbh28]

No, I do not believe so. But it will be because Christians have a new incorruptible body that does not tempt us to sin.

1 Pet 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

We have the Spirit now, and the Spirit cannot sin. However we still abide in corruptible bodies that tempt us to sin.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We will not be tempted by the lusts of the flesh in heaven.

And that's my point. We will love God and worship him without the possibility of sinning/doing moral evil in heaven.

 

[jbh28]

Sure, if God wanted to make the rocks cry out he could, but clearly that is not what he wants. He is pleased by those who freely choose to humble themselves, repent of their rebellion, believe in Him and worship him...the scripture says he "SEEKS" those who worship him. So we aren't talking about what he COULD do, we are talking about what He has revealed to do.

My point is that we will not have the option to sin in heaven. We will not have the option to sin in heaven.

I agree. "God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may show mercy TO ALL." (Rm 11:32)

The same all who are bound are the same all shown mercy.

He shows mercy to those that believe.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

And that's my point. We will love God and worship him without the possibility of sinning/doing moral evil in heaven.

So, once there our ability to choose is taken away? Lucifer and the angles that followed him were in heaven to start with; if there is no possibility of doing moral evil there, how did they fall?

 

[Winman]

And that's my point. We will love God and worship him without the possibility of sinning/doing moral evil in heaven.

We will not sin because we do not desire to sin. That is not the same as saying it is not POSSIBLE to sin.

It will be far easier to resist temptation in heaven because we will not have a corrupt body that tempts us. We will also be in a sinless environment, Satan and his angels are going to be kicked out (Rev 12).

You seem to be arguing that the reason people sin is because they have a sin nature. The problem is that scripture absolutely refutes this. Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature, yet they both chose to sin. Satan and the fallen angels were not created with a sin nature, and yet they all chose to sin.

So, having a sinless nature does not prevent a person from sinning. That is a scriptural FACT.

However, all those who are saved have already chosen for good in this world.

 

[Skandelon]

My point is that we will not have the option to sin in heaven. We will not have the option to sin in heaven.

But sin and rebellion would have already served its purpose in bringing God true worshippers, so what is your point?

You are trying to argue that according to my view for those in heaven to be true worshippers then they must still be able to rebel, but that is not the case because once redeemed the purpose of the rebellion will have been completed. However, if you skip that part then it wouldn't have been accomplished.

Calvinism essentially skips over any real since of freedom and goes straight to "making rocks cry out" thus never accomplishing this purpose. God might as well just made worshippers without the ability to rebel to begin with if that is the case.

 

[Winman]

But sin and rebellion would have already served its purpose in bringing God true worshippers, so what is your point?

You are trying to argue that according to my view for those in heaven to be true worshippers then they must still be able to rebel, but that is not the case because once redeemed the purpose of the rebellion will have been completed. However, if you skip that part then it wouldn't have been accomplished.

Calvinism essentially skips over any real since of freedom and goes straight to "making rocks cry out" thus never accomplishing this purpose. God might as well just made worshippers without the ability to rebel to begin with if that is the case.

Exactly. Why give men choice (or the false belief they have choice) unless God wanted men to choose either for or against him?

As you said, just make a bunch of mindless robots in the first place.

 

[Skandelon]

Exactly. Why give men choice (or the false belief they have choice) unless God wanted men to choose either for or against him?

Correct.

Even compatibilistic Calvinists affirm that men make some kind of a quasi 'choice.' But why? If God has determined man nature/desire in such a manner that he must choose one option over the other then (1) can you really even call that a choice, and (2) what is accomplished by it?

Is God really the most glorified in a world where He determines the outcome of every choice of every morally accountable creature? If so, then why not create that world with only creatures determined to worship and with full understanding of whatever it is they need to know?

 

[Deacon]

Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics​

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.


Robot's are governed by Law, we will be governed by a loving God.

1. No tears, no death, these are of a former time.

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away. Revelation 21:4 (ESV)

2. We will see God face to face and know him fully.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12 (ESV)

3. We will be like Jesus.

…we know that when he appears we shall be like him… 1 John 3:2 (ESV)

Why ever would we want to sin?

Rob

 

[jbh28]

But sin and rebellion would have already served its purpose in bringing God true worshippers, so what is your point?

You are trying to argue that according to my view for those in heaven to be true worshippers then they must still be able to rebel, but that is not the case because once redeemed the purpose of the rebellion will have been completed. However, if you skip that part then it wouldn't have been accomplished.

I'm actually arguing the very opposite. I'm saying that true worship can be done without the possibility of rebellion/moral evil/sin.

 

[jbh28]

We will not sin because we do not desire to sin. That is not the same as saying it is not POSSIBLE to sin.

Will it be possible to sin in heaven?