So you are saying that there will be the possibility of people doing moral evil in heaven?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Robots and Free Will
- Thread starter jbh28
- Start date
So you are saying that there will be the possibility of people doing moral evil in heaven?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I said 'according to my view.' I wasn't saying that is what you believed.
I know what you are arguing. I've heard it many times before. We are saying true freedom is needed for true love/worship and you are countering that by suggesting that because we will not have freedom to rebel in heaven that our premise is in error...and that true worship can be done without freedom to rebel. But this ignores the facts I've previously mentioned regarding how God's purpose in allowing for our freedom/rebellion and subsequent reconciliation and worship/love are already accomplished by the time we get to heaven.
Your view skips that process and thus negates that purpose.
Anyway you look at it, you still have people worshiping God without the ability to sin in heaven. Of course there is a purpose of God having evil in the world and it will serve that purpose by the time we are all in heaven. I agree 100% with that. What I disagree with is the argument that free will must exist for us to truly worship God. It's something that is not taught in Scripture.
Now, I believe that men have wills. They make choices. But I don't believe that free will is required in order to truly love God. It's not a good answer to the problem of evil.
Last edited by a moderator:
Boy, talk about tough questions! But the fact I cannot answer this question does not prove one way or another, none of us will know what heaven is like until we get there.
I do not think we will ever want to sin in heaven because we have already made our choice for good here in this life. We have already experienced rebellion and sin and seen the consequences. Frankly, I do not want to sin NOW, but at the same time I am at times drawn to sin. This is the lust of the flesh which we will not know in heaven.
But the scriptures give a few glimpses of heaven that do not show us like mindless robots.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Now, here are saints in heaven, and they sound as if they are impatient and complaining to a degree. They also want revenge. It seems they are given white robes to pacify them and they are told to rest. It seems they are being asked to be patient.
The scriptures say we should not complain.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
1 Cor 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now, these folks were not quite murmuring, murmuring is defined as complaining in secret, like as folks might complain about their boss at work behind his back, or even complain about their pastor at church behind his back.
Yet, they do seem to be complaining to a degree, and being impatient.
But again, none of us will know for certain exactly what heaven is like until we get there. I am sure we will all be in for a great many surprises.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I wouldn't say they don't have the ability, I'd say wouldn't have the desire.
What do you believe that purpose is?
You affirm 'free' human will, so what do you believe its purpose is?
So you affirm human will but you deny its necessity? Did God mess up? Please explain. What is the purpose of your view of human freedom and choice if not what I said?
I agree with you that we will not want to sin. When I say it's not possible, I don't mean that people will want to sin but can't. (which would be a sin anyway)
I'm going to look some info up. Here's a bit.
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
I'm not trying to say that i's totally not necessary. In fact I would deny that. I do however reject libertarian free will.
We don't really know the perfect answer to why God allowed evil in the world. As we have agreed on, it serves a purpose for God's ultimate plan. We do see God's glory. "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." Could the answer be that God allowed evil to display His glory? God allowed people to have free wills to accomplish the evil. Maybe free will is more in lines with the means of God allowing evil and not the way.
I don't have the perfect answer. I don't think anyone really does. This is the best answer that I know of. I'm always learning.
I don't want to say it's not
Well, this verse is speaking of suffering. To me, the saddest thing in life has been losing loved ones and good friends to death. In the past three years, my father, mother, and younger brother have died. I am very sure of my mother's salvation and have reason to believe my father was saved, but I am not sure about my brother, he rejected Christianity, though I spoke to him many times about Jesus. All of these deaths has been hard on me, but especially my brother. I miss all my loved ones, my grandparents have been gone for many years. We will never lose a loved one or friend in heaven ever again. I am thankful for that.
Well again, I do not believe any saved person will ever want to sin in heaven, they have no desire to do that NOW generally speaking.
Originally Posted by jbh28
Will it be possible to sin in heaven?
No....not possible at all.Not even close:thumbs:
Will it be possible to sin in heaven?
No....not possible at all.Not even close:thumbs:
I lost my mother 2 years ago. It will be wonderful to not have to experience death again.
Ok, so you then at least agree with me that there will be no sin.
I am sorry to hear of your loss. Sometimes I almost pick up the phone and call my mom, and then remember I cannot.
Yes, I agree with you, although I do not know if it is "impossible" for folks to sin, I just believe we will never choose to sin again. As I showed with John, he was out of the body and in the Spirit, but he was able to make a mistake in heaven.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I agree, there is no perfect answer and we are all still learning.
But, when you speak of 'free will" as simply being 'according to what one wants" but then you refuse to discuss why it is they want what they want (because God determined it) all the while denying the possibility of contra-causual free will, then you set up an apparent contradiction. All you are doing is labeling a will that has been predetermined as being 'free' so as not to have to deal with the implications of a divinely determined human will (having your cake and eating it too). That would be like me calling what I believe "Calvinism" so as to avoid questions from Calvinists. It removes the meaning of words.
Secondly, as a husband and a father I have grown to know more and more about relationships. And while our relationship to God is different on some levels, there are still many similarities. And one thing I know is that you can't force love and obedience. I can't make my wife love me. I can't make my kids obey or love me. Well, I suppose I could drug them to make them have less resistance to my will, but who would want that kind of relationship? I want them to want me, FREELY...not because I somehow secretly manipulate and change their wills to do what I determined for them to do. I suppose God is not much different in that respects. I can't see how his making people love him by supernaturally changing their wills to do what He wants is somehow more glorifying to Him. I could be wrong, but the more I learn of God and true love relationships the less I think this is probably the way God has chosen to work in our world.
I agree with you about love, it must be given freely and willingly to have any real meaning.
I could build ten robots that I programmed to tell me how wonderful I am, how smart I am, and how much they love me fifty times a day. I know that would not be satisfying, and the whole thing sounds rather selfish doesn't it?
Jesus said sin is necessary, "it must needs be". It cannot be avoided, even by God. I personally believe this is because it would be immoral for God to make a creature without free will. This would be a slave and a robot. God does not compel or force anyone to love or choose him. So, God MUST give us free will to enable us to freely love him of our own personal choice. But this same freedom necessarily enables a person to choose against God and hate him if they so desire.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Calvinists seem to believe God can do anything and it is OK simply because he is God. They do not seem to realize that God's greatest attribute is Holiness, and he cannot deny himself. It would be evil and immoral to enslave a person, all men know this by nature (or at least they should). God MUST allow us to be free.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yeah, it's like the difference between a dog and a wife. If you lock them both in the trunk of your car and leave them there for a couple hours then let them out only one of them is going to be happy to see you. 
Some may be satisfied surrounding themselves with dogs alone, but I prefer a wife.
Some may be satisfied surrounding themselves with dogs alone, but I prefer a wife.
Yeah, it's like the difference between a dog and a wife. If you lock them both in the trunk of your car and leave them there for a couple hours then let them out only one of them is going to be happy to see you.
Some may be satisfied surrounding themselves with dogs alone, but I prefer a wife.
OK, this is going to be totally off subject, but you reminded me of a funny story.
My wife's sister is married to a Marine. When he got out of the service, they moved from N. Carolina where he was stationed back to Connecticut. They rented the biggest truck possible, and actually stored their car and all their belongings in the truck. He drove the truck while my sister-in-law flew up several days before him.
My sister-in-law had a cat she loved, but my brother-in-law hated this cat. My sister-in-law insisted he carry the cat in the cab with him when he drove up.
The cat was very nervous and jumping all over the cab, even scratching my brother-in-law. Then the cat did #1 on him. That was it, he told me he grabbed the cat, threw open the tailgate, and flung the cat in!
He stopped at a rest area on the New Jersey Turnpike and decided to check on the cat. When he opened the tailgate the cat jumped out and ran for his life. My brother-in-law chased after the cat which actually crossed the Turnpike, amazingly not getting hit by all the cars. He was running down the Turnpike trying not to get killed himself. It took him about 15 minutes to catch the cat. When he did, he again opened the tailgate and flung the cat in. He did not open it again until he arrived in Connecticut. :laugh:
Totally off subject, but your story reminded me of this one. True story.
convicted1
Guest
Nope. Our souls have already been redeemed. When Jesus returns in the Cloud, we will get a new body, void of the sin nature. Our soul and body will be sinless before the Throne for eternity. We will never be able to sin in that bright city.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
When Lucifer and the angles that eventually rebelled with him were in heaven, did they have a "sin nature? Or were they sinless beings who nevertheless were created with the freedom to choose?
I am just wondering when God takes away that freedom. I don't think He ever does.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I don't think he "takes freedom away" I think he defeats sin once and for all. Once redeemed we will have a nature like that of Christ, who would not sin...not because he is not 'free' to do so, but because he is not willing to do so.
Last edited by a moderator:
Last edited by a moderator:
Michael Wrenn
New Member
That's a good answer!
But did Lucifer have that nature in heaven?
Also, since we are not God like Jesus was and is, can we ever have a nature completely like Him?
Last edited by a moderator: