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Robots in heaven?
- Thread starter Andy T.
- Start date
npetreley said:You've been remarkably reasonable lately. What did you do with the real Blammo? Are you a body snatcher?
Seriously, I love your attitude of late. I have a great deal of respect for you, whether we agree on things or not.
I am schizophrenic.... NO I'M NOT!!! (yes, I am, shhhh) I HEARD THAT!!!
Actually, I'd have to say the feeling is mutual. When I first entered these discussions, I had a prejudice against calvinists, so I think I had a tendency to be both offensive and defensive. Now, I know I have more to learn than I have to teach. (That is humbling)
You, Andy T, and J.D., have been very patient with me, and it has helped me to realize I agree with you guys far more than I disagree. I will admit, I do not want to change what I believe. However, you guys make some very compelling arguments, and I'll have no choice but to change what I believe, if the truth forces me too.
Marcia
Active Member
Andy T. said:
God cannot lie, but he is not a robot.
God cannot go against his nature, but he is not a robot.
In heaven, our nature will be cleansed from sin - so we cannot go against our nature in heaven but that does not mean we will be robots.
I almost didn't answer this OP because I saw it for what it was -- a thinly disguised attempt to attack non-Calvinists. :wavey:
An "attack"? No. Self-defense? Sure. Marcia, the OP was merely an attempt to show that the "robot" charge against C's is a misrepresentation and can also be turned on the non-C in the same manner regarding his view of heaven, like this:Marcia said:
Marcia said:
Just as man in his natural state cannot (will not) go against his nature and choose Christ does not mean he is a robot either.
So the choice is either: (a) We both believe men are robots at some time (the non-C of glorified man; the C of natural and glorified man), or (b) Neither of us believe men are ever robots.
I go with (b).
Peace.
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I wonder how this conversation would have gone hundreds of years ago or whenever it was that people didn't even have a notion of what we now call a "robot". Did they argue that Calvinists believe the elect are like golems, or something like that? This is a serious question -- did people only start using this argument after robots became a household term, or did they simply use some analogy using something functionally equivalent to a robot?
Brother Bob
New Member
Using the term "robot" is just that a term. What is being said is the C say that God changes some men's heart so they become a "good little boys and girls" and can't help it and the rest are "bad little boys and of course bad little girls" and can't help it.
The A are not the ones calling them that it is the C's.
The A are not the ones calling them that it is the C's.
Is this what Calvinists truly don't understand -- personal, human will? Robots, indeed NOT!
I guess the best way to approach this it now and then. NOW: Believers now have the "mind of Christ." As we grow spiritually (grow in sanctification), rationale of it makes more and more sense and our behavior in our bodies follows. This, BTW, is called having a body of "terrestrial glory." (1Cor 15) This "new creation" is called "terrestrial" because it is still subject to the world and the imperfect flesh, right? But over time, the saint grows and Christ is "all in all (Col 3:11).
At the rapture, we will receive bodies of "celestial glory." Untouched by the flesh and the world, we also will have the mind of God Who will be "all in all." (1Cor 15:28).
Right now, without the flesh and the world, we would think like Christ beyond the world and flesh we see. Are you beginning to do that in your life? Is relationship becoming more important than ownership? You know, in eternity the lost aren't given a body because they only serve self thereby. Even in the lake of fire that would be true. But the saved are given bodies because they learned that relationship to God and others is more important than the demands of the flesh and of self.
THEN: So in glory, we will know what God knows and think like He does. Despite our knowledge of sin, we will know too its consequences and the temptation will be gone (you've no doubt experienced THAT here, right? -- you who have quit smoking? -- you who have been divorced?)
God will allow us to serve Him in imaginative and personal ways even as He seems to today (I'm talking about YOU who thinks he/she is on the perfect way already!) :laugh: JV McGee even thinks that the ministry we have here is just the beginning of the ministry we will have in heaven (See you there, my STUDENTS! Be sure to bring an apple!) :laugh:
skypair
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I agree. Baby steps, though. And even if no one is remotely moved towards Calvinism because of this argument (and the several others on this forum), maybe at least they'll come to understand that C's aren't so bad after all (as, for instance, Blammo has come to realize recently).Marcia said:
Brother Bob
New Member
There will be no knowledge of evil at all in Heaven. Sin and evil is nature and all nature will be left behind.
They are neither male or female in Heaven, there is no tears there. You think if we knew of our love one in hell we would be happy in
heaven. Heaven is beyond words of mortal man. We don't understand how God could even make a man and now you think we can decipher
what Heaven will like? We better stick to what we need to do here and I will say this, if we make it to Heaven then we will be satisfied.
Will there be sin in Heaven, what a question?
We have a terrestrial body because we were naturally born with one and its terrestrial because it perishes and will eventually die.
They are neither male or female in Heaven, there is no tears there. You think if we knew of our love one in hell we would be happy in
heaven. Heaven is beyond words of mortal man. We don't understand how God could even make a man and now you think we can decipher
what Heaven will like? We better stick to what we need to do here and I will say this, if we make it to Heaven then we will be satisfied.
Will there be sin in Heaven, what a question?
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If I may...
This whole thing about "robots" is frustration on the part of some saints who can see that God doesn't program them to do only evil. Get a half al brain cell, would you?!
Sin nature: the propensity to sin. It's NOT sin by itself -- it's that the natural man, when confronted with temptation, will sin more frequently than not. Why?
The sin nature begins as a "survival instinct" -- natural. Sin does not arise because the baby is hungry and cries for milk. The sin arises when the teenager becomes a glutton and sins against his/her own body! But guilt emerges when that teen knows that gluttony is against the "law."
The sin isn't when a baby takes a toy away from another. Our instinct is to get what we need, then what we want.
So here's the teaching: The instincts are in the flesh. the body, for the survival thereof. The instinct came about at the fall. Before that, survival wasn't an issue, right? Even the animals had plenty to eat. But notice that Adam would now have to till the soil in "sorrow" and among "thorns."
The flesh, then, begins "naturally" to "program" the spirit (mind, emotions, and will). Crying for milk becomes crying for candy. What has happened to the soul so far?
Nothing, according to Paul (Rom 7:9). Without the law, he was "alive." Paul and all of us have a conscience -- a soul. Even before the law, there was sin but God "winked at it." That is, you hadn't done the one thing that God can never forgive -- reject Him of His "law." This is the state of infants on up to the age of accountibility, right? Accountibility is knowing that you have done wrong against God (knowing the "law" as Paul said), whatever your image of Him may be.
So what is the natural soul like? It is self awareness and God awareness. It is our mediator of right and wrong even before we know God. But when our intellect sees God, the soul recognizes innately Who He is. "And this is the Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world!" (John 1:9) Did you get that? EVERY MAN!! (Rom 1) This is what makes "total inability" and "absolute total depravity" IMPOSSIBLE! Man would have to harden his own conscience over a long period by rejecting God before he would be rendered, like Pharoah, too hard to be able to hear or believe God.
Are you beginning to see why we are never robots and how we will have our own wills in eternity?
skypair
This whole thing about "robots" is frustration on the part of some saints who can see that God doesn't program them to do only evil. Get a half al brain cell, would you?!
Sin nature: the propensity to sin. It's NOT sin by itself -- it's that the natural man, when confronted with temptation, will sin more frequently than not. Why?
The sin nature begins as a "survival instinct" -- natural. Sin does not arise because the baby is hungry and cries for milk. The sin arises when the teenager becomes a glutton and sins against his/her own body! But guilt emerges when that teen knows that gluttony is against the "law."
The sin isn't when a baby takes a toy away from another. Our instinct is to get what we need, then what we want.
So here's the teaching: The instincts are in the flesh. the body, for the survival thereof. The instinct came about at the fall. Before that, survival wasn't an issue, right? Even the animals had plenty to eat. But notice that Adam would now have to till the soil in "sorrow" and among "thorns."
The flesh, then, begins "naturally" to "program" the spirit (mind, emotions, and will). Crying for milk becomes crying for candy. What has happened to the soul so far?
Nothing, according to Paul (Rom 7:9). Without the law, he was "alive." Paul and all of us have a conscience -- a soul. Even before the law, there was sin but God "winked at it." That is, you hadn't done the one thing that God can never forgive -- reject Him of His "law." This is the state of infants on up to the age of accountibility, right? Accountibility is knowing that you have done wrong against God (knowing the "law" as Paul said), whatever your image of Him may be.
So what is the natural soul like? It is self awareness and God awareness. It is our mediator of right and wrong even before we know God. But when our intellect sees God, the soul recognizes innately Who He is. "And this is the Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world!" (John 1:9) Did you get that? EVERY MAN!! (Rom 1) This is what makes "total inability" and "absolute total depravity" IMPOSSIBLE! Man would have to harden his own conscience over a long period by rejecting God before he would be rendered, like Pharoah, too hard to be able to hear or believe God.
Are you beginning to see why we are never robots and how we will have our own wills in eternity?
skypair
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Brother Bob
New Member
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :saint:
npetreley said:
Sorry, npe, but it is bringing the "rubber" to the "road." One of the primary problems with Calvinism is that there is no practical application (not even of the "blood" to the "believer's" soul since it remains to be seen if they are "elect" or not) -- no real life proof. If there was, even Calvin would have seen that his entire theology was "theoretical."
Take "total depravity," for example. He claims body, soul, and spirit are totally depraved even from the womb (Well, except for John the B who he claims was saved from the womb). Does he intend ever to prove any of that -- or is this merely the "theory?"
Is it just possible that the flesh is born in corruption (dying) and going to die (the curse) but the spirit and soul are not necessarily DOA?? What's YOUR proof? What do YOU know about soul and spirit? What would be the "death of the spirit or soul?" What was it for Adam?
skypair
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I get the feeling that some have overlooked the rhetorical nature of my OP and follow up questions. Bob, my question as to whether or not sin will be in heaven was rhetorical - I knew the answer, but I was just trying to get you to think of the implications in regards to the OP. Skypair, I agree that we will not be robots in heaven and have never argued for such.
webdog said:
Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.
Obi-Wan: [influencing the stormtrooper's mind] You don't need to see his identification.
Stormtrooper: We don't need to see his identification.
Obi-Wan: These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the droids we're looking for.
Obi-Wan: He can go about his business.
Stormtrooper: You can go about your business.
Obi-Wan: Move along.
Stormtrooper: Move along... move along.
:laugh: You maketh me to laugh!!!