Robots in heaven?

[Blammo]

My favorite Jedi mind trick was when young Obi-Wan convinced a "death stick" drug pusher to turn his life around. Episode II, I think.

Yes, Episode II...

Elan Sleazebaggano: You wanna buy some death sticks?
Obi-Wan: [using the Jedi mind trick] You don't want to sell me death sticks.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I don't want to sell you death sticks.
Obi-Wan: You want to go home and rethink your life.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I want to go home and rethink my life.

"Sleasebaggano" :laugh:

I am not learning a thing today. Someone start a new thread or something.

:sleeping_2:

 

[Andy T.]

"Sleasebaggano"? That was really his name? Sounds like they got to the end of making the movie and forgot to name the character, so someone yells out jokingly, "Let's just call him Sleeze Bag!" To which Lucas replies, "You may be onto something there..." :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

Is it just possible that the flesh is born in corruption (dying) and going to die (the curse) but the spirit and soul are not necessarily DOA?? What's YOUR proof? What do YOU know about soul and spirit? What would be the "death of the spirit or soul?" What was it for Adam?

can I answer, can I?
The soul and spirit are alive until they come to know to do good and do it not or otherwords "the law enters".
Else, why would the Scripture say "the soul that sinneth shall die" if it were already dead then it couldn't die.

 

[Revmitchell]

So maybe it's time that non-C's drop the "robot" charge and start representing the other side honestly.

Are you actually asserting that "Calvinism" is intetnionally being misrepresented? As in intentionally being dishonest?

 

[Andy T.]

Are you actually asserting that "Calvinism" is intetnionally being misrepresented? As in intentionally being dishonest?

In some cases, I think it is willfull ignorance, which can become dishonest after awhile. In most cases, it is probably just plain ignorance or not adequately thinking things through. So probably a better phrasing of my last sentence is this:

"So maybe it's time that non-C's drop the "robot" charge and start representing the other side accurately."

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

can I answer, can I?
The soul and spirit are alive until they come to know to do good and do it not or otherwords "the law enters".
Else, why would the Scripture say "the soul that sinneth shall die" if it were already dead then it couldn't die.

Well I believe we all fall in Adam, So death passes on us all. But There is something to this. This teaching in Romans 5:12 through :14. as it says death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Also Paul said I was alive once with out the Law, the Law came sin revived and I died. I am not sure about that one either.

I need study on this. But one things you will notice about a true believer is that they feel they deserve hell. Where people who don't care never feel that way, they just think Gods not going to send them there that they are a pretty good person.

I use to feel that way then there came a time in my life that I felt i was going to hell for sure and that I needed a savior. (Maybe thats when the law slew me and I died??) Thats when I started seeking the Lord. But I believe that whole experience was of the Lord like in Philippians 1:6, But hey keep studying this and maybe start a new thread on it.

Maybe 1 Tim. 5:24 Ties into that.

 

[gb93433]

One of the common misrepresentations against Calvinism is that is makes people "robots". God doesn't want robots in heaven! But as has been defended here many times over, C acknowledges that man is a free agent.

There will be robots in heaven. Those Christians who do not think and look at scripture little who are willing to blindly follow the gurus of the denomination are simply robots.

 

[Marcia]

I agree. Baby steps, though. And even if no one is remotely moved towards Calvinism because of this argument (and the several others on this forum), maybe at least they'll come to understand that C's aren't so bad after all (as, for instance, Blammo has come to realize recently).

I never said C's were bad. I have many friends who are C's. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Allan]

I have friends that are Calvinists and I have studied much of the Reformation theology they suggest. But since this thread is dealing with the issue of "robots" I'll toss in my nickle :laugh:

1. Calvinists state: (God decreed man WOULD fall) - Guess what - We did.
a. In doing so it [pre-programmed] us in such a way that all we do is tanted in sin.

2. This [pre-programmed] nature of man is at emnity with God
a. Man can not change his [pre-programmed] nature and therefore will not turn.

3. God decreed only (some) men must/can be saved.
a. Man can not change, so God must [re-program) (some) men
b. This [re-programming] must be done or man will never be saved.
c. Do to this [re-programming] man now has new orders - Seek me - Be Saved! (re-create a new man)
d. [Re-programming] complete, man can ONLY NOW seek God.

4. Now that the programing does not conflict with the previous data, man can be saved and no error report will be given due to conflict in salvation programming.

Sounds like a robot to me. :wavey:

 

[Andy T.]

Allan, your premise is false. God does not "program" us with sin. We choose sin freely. The judgment for Adam's fall is that we all have a sin nature, of which C's and non-C's both agree, unless you hold to the Pelagian heresy. Romans 5:12 says that we have all sinned in Adam, which means that we all would have chosen the same as Adam. Otherwise, God would owe us our own personal Eden, and until we sin, we would get to stay there. But that's not the case, once Adam sinned, Eden was closed forever, because we all sin.

I'll admit, the Fall is mysterious in the sense of why would God (1) allow it and (2) allow the curse of the sin nature to affect all of Adam's kin? The tension is relieved somewhat by admitting that we all would have chosen the same as Adam. But then that begs the question as to why would God create an entire race that He knew would rebel againist Him? These are questions that both C's and non-C's must deal with. They are not easy for our finite minds, and if we are honest we must admit that we don't know God's hidden purposes.

Lastly, if you still want to hold onto your weak argument that C's make men out to be robots, then you must also deal with the fact that your theology also makes men out to be robots in heaven. God will "program" us in heaven so that we will not sin. Sounds like a robot to me.

 

[webdog]

God will "program" us in heaven so that we will not sin. Sounds like a robot to me.

No, God will remove the heavy yolk of sin that we have placed on ourselves. This is no way near "programming" us to do anything.

 

[Andy T.]

No, God will remove the heavy yolk of sin that we have placed on ourselves. This is no way near "programming" us to do anything.

I agree. He will perfect our nature. Can't wait!

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree. He will perfect our nature. Can't wait!

Nature stays in the grave, we will be Spiritual.

 

[Allan]

Lets try this again.

God DECREED man WOULD sin - In short - Adam MUST fall and therefore sin due to Gods eternal decree. We did it ,cause God decreed that it to happen and therefore must happen regardless of by what means it is incurred. (pre-programmed)

Man in sin can NEVER come to God unless GOD CHANGE (re-prgram) him/her.

Only after being born-again (re-programmed) WILL man be saved. Once a new creature Man can not help but BE SAVED due to his new programming.

If you disagree then you need to go back and re-study Calvinistic theology again.

The terminology I use concerning pre-programmed and re-programmed is to show the robot analogy in context.

However, you can not deny that in Gods soveriegnty (according to Calvinistic view) He decreed everything that IS to happen. That would mean from the fall (man sinning against God) to the eternal victory we see in the scriptures as well. And that by this same decree God must change mans (some) natures/spirit thereby and in effect WILL change them to do what He has decreed they will do. THEY (elect) are simply following orders give to them in the new man. Yes of course you will WANT to be saved, but it was not your choice. God had to change you to change your choice. You choose Him because He changed you to make you choose Him.

Thus my nickles worth of thought on this thread. It might not buy a loaf of bread but bought some air time :thumbsup:

 

[skypair]

Allan,

I like your little "programming" dittie BUT there are too many false premises.

God DECREED man WOULD sin - In short - Adam MUST fall and therefore sin due to Gods eternal decree.

God did NOT "decree" this -- He foreknew it!

Let's put your theory in simple terms, shall we? God "decreed" sin. God "decreed" to destroy His creation. Who is the "destroyer" in scripture, Allan? Which only points to an obvious ommission on Calvin's part -- did God "decree" the fall of Lucifer, too?

Now let's put mine in simple terms. God gave His creation the same free will and sovereignty to exercise them that He had (made "in His image"). God "foreknew" that man had no defenses and would, therefore, sin. God promptly thereafter began to give men "defenses" against sin and His foreknowledge allowed Him to make provision for reconciliation.

But I do like your "programming" idea. With the Spirit indwelling me, of course I am reprogrammed to see everything differently, but I do have my own "inputs" as well -- which is why I still sin. Imagine what it will be like when I don't have any unrquited desires of my own and am free to follow my "programming." :smilewinkgrin:

skypair

 

[Allan]

Hello Skypair,

lol, I like your insinuating of AI within the programming model. That was good. :thumbs:

But the constuct of the decree (depending on your Calvinistic bent) was really more of the issue after the fact (due to a previous post I was clarifying for). But I will give also your alternate model as well concerning Gods forknowing the fall rather than decreeing the fall.

God forknew man WOULD sin - In short - Adam was going to fall and therefore sin as God foreknew he would. We did it, in accordance to what God foreknew we would do and therefore it was according to His will that man fall. His will being fulfilled regardless of by what means it is incurred. (Still pre-programmed with a twist) The rest of Post # 54 still applies

[Twist = God made man knowing man WOULD fall, causing a fatal error in programing (He 'designed' to function this way) that would not allow contact with the designer.]

With regard to HOW is this STILL pre-programed?
God foreknew what would happen and chose to allow it to happen. This being in accordance with His plan and purpose thereby identifying itself (what He foreknew) as the Will of God.

Questions:

1. If it is the will of God is this not Gods Decree?

2. Do you believe He (God) decreed everything that IS to happen, yhereby all things consist by Him and for Him?

Imagine what it will be like when I don't have any unrquited desires of my own and am free to follow my "programming."

To that My brother I can't Wait But Honestly say I like the way WEBDOG put it
No, God will remove the heavy yolk of sin that we have placed on ourselves. This is no way near "programming" us to do anything. :thumbs: :tongue3:

 

[Jarthur001]

Lets try this again.

God DECREED man WOULD sin - In short - Adam MUST fall and therefore sin due to Gods eternal decree. We did it ,cause God decreed that it to happen and therefore must happen regardless of by what means it is incurred. (pre-programmed)

Man in sin can NEVER come to God unless GOD CHANGE (re-prgram) him/her.

Only after being born-again (re-programmed) WILL man be saved. Once a new creature Man can not help but BE SAVED due to his new programming.

If you disagree then you need to go back and re-study Calvinistic theology again.

The terminology I use concerning pre-programmed and re-programmed is to show the robot analogy in context.

However, you can not deny that in Gods soveriegnty (according to Calvinistic view) He decreed everything that IS to happen. That would mean from the fall (man sinning against God) to the eternal victory we see in the scriptures as well. And that by this same decree God must change mans (some) natures/spirit thereby and in effect WILL change them to do what He has decreed they will do. THEY (elect) are simply following orders give to them in the new man. Yes of course you will WANT to be saved, but it was not your choice. God had to change you to change your choice. You choose Him because He changed you to make you choose Him.

Thus my nickles worth of thought on this thread. It might not buy a loaf of bread but bought some air time :thumbsup:

Indeed. Last time I checked God made all things. This includes the "tree" that Adam sinned with, that turned into the fall. If God knew the fall would happen, and He made the tree for it to happen, then it was God that in the end decreed it. Where as, God knowing it would happen if He made the tree, could have not made the tree so that fall would not happen. This is not saying God made Adam sin. Yet all the subjects were in place and placed there by God, knowing Adam would sin and counting on Adam to sin. Adam however was pulled into evil with his own will to be as God. Adam wanted control just as the devil wanted control when he fell.

Now...Is God in control....or what??????

 

[webdog]

James, you are starting to sound like johnp...very hyper.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, you are starting to sound like johnp...very hyper.

Where is johnp anyway?

I think John would say God pushed Adam into sin.

I say God placed in place the subjects that lead to Adams sin, and God knew it would happen when He placed those things in place.

This is not saying God made Adam sin. Man is drawn away by his own lust. (james) In Adams case, Adam wanted (lust)to be just as God.

Again..God was not surprised. God knew it would happen and made ALL subjects in the "play", if you will.

This subject we must handle with care. We must not go to far with it, yet we are free to state what is in the Bible.

This is the facts...

God Knows all things...
God made all things on earth and in the garden..
God knew Adam would fall..
God had the power to stop Adam...
God allowed Adam to fall...

 

[Allan]

And God knew who would repent and turn to Christ and Christ alone for salvation:tongue3: