Jarthur001
Active Member
indeed. But God did not base his plan on this. God knew for He is God.Allan said:
agree?
-
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Robots in heaven?
- Thread starter Andy T.
- Start date
agree?
From the few post we have had you aught to know better than to ask me that. I'm a blabber mouth :laugh:
If God knew, being God, would He not base His plan on what He knows, being God.
You have a small discrepence (at least here) in God forknowing ALL things but choosing not to know anything concerning the elect, except that He distinquished them from the rest of humanity, for no apparent reason (no respecter of persons) but for a reason apparent (His plan). This set up the stipulation there IS a reason He chose some (in them or do to them) for the fulfillment of His purpose. You can maintain that there isn't (another viable option) but this now emphasizes that God does not love those He chose but the plan for which they were chosen to fulfill. It takes the love of God from His atonement and places it upon the plan itself and man is love in tertiary form rather than intimately.
If God knew, being God, would He not base His plan on what He knows, being God.
You have a small discrepence (at least here) in God forknowing ALL things but choosing not to know anything concerning the elect, except that He distinquished them from the rest of humanity, for no apparent reason (no respecter of persons) but for a reason apparent (His plan). This set up the stipulation there IS a reason He chose some (in them or do to them) for the fulfillment of His purpose. You can maintain that there isn't (another viable option) but this now emphasizes that God does not love those He chose but the plan for which they were chosen to fulfill. It takes the love of God from His atonement and places it upon the plan itself and man is love in tertiary form rather than intimately.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Allan,Allan said:
Blabber away....this is what we all do. Ok...not all, but I do anyways.
Lets address this line by line...
How so? God does know all things. I am saying that His knowing is not His reason for action. God knows for He decrees.
Let me be clear on this. Tis the idea of ramdom choice that I do not think the Bible teaches. Just because there is nothing in us to make God choose does not mean it is a ramdom choice. To me I see a ramdom pick as God with His eyes closed and reaching into a box to pick. Or...throwing up the cards...and the ones that land face up..win. This is not a plan or purpose...but it is ramdom. It says nowhere in Gods Word that His election was ramdom or any thing like this. It does say according to His plan, purpose and pleasure.
What is pleasure?
Pleasure to us carries the idea of happiness and delight or satisfaction. God has a joy in election and it is to His delight. This is more then a ramdom throwing the cards in the air. I feel election has a meaning and it is love. Why? I cannot tell you why. It is not based on works...or looks. God loves me for reason knewn only to Him.
What is a plan?
This carries order with it. Ramdom is in no way order.
What is purpose?
Reason. Ah ha...there you go. God had a reason. Indeed He did, but it was not in us. The reason was love. Why did He love you so? I do not know why He loved me so. Christ picked His bride..(love)..and died for their sins...(greater love has no man then if he lay down his life for a friend)...and the atonement worked..(love never fails)...and He will keep His hand on us..(For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth..As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.....)
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
We love him, because he first loved us.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Indeed..tis love as it was just addressed.
Agreed...and I hold my view.<<<<-------((((edit)))))...i read this wrong.
God does indeed love His church as shown. LOVE was the REASON, but it is unclear as to WHY God loved us.
wrong. The atonement was the love act. Love never fails and all that God died for are saved.
do you agree?
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Hello again, Jarth,
This is the EXACT problem I am refering to. You just have a better ability to compact it into one sentence than I do. :tear: :smilewinkgrin:
Let us first deal with this issue as it is what typically leads to misunderstanding on either side.
As you state it "
Look at what I see from you: God decreed and therefore He knew (foreknew).
Is this a correct assumuption of your saying and belief? If so, continue and if not please clarify.
First, If God decreed all things before He knew anything, He must therefore be the author of ALL things pertaining to creation both physicall and spiritual. This includes sin and and righteousness and everyone who falls into both catagories. And it follows the arthor and completor of the dammed as well being they were created for Hell because God first decreed they would be such.
Now as most Calvinist do not believe this, it is still a maintained contradiction with their system of theology based on the pardiam of what they first confessed of what God did in the outset of decreeing all things first and by this having all knowledge.
This is the EXACT problem I am refering to. You just have a better ability to compact it into one sentence than I do. :tear: :smilewinkgrin:
Let us first deal with this issue as it is what typically leads to misunderstanding on either side.
As you state it "
." It is in this pardiam we find an inconsistancy in the Calvinist system of theology.
Look at what I see from you: God decreed and therefore He knew (foreknew).
Is this a correct assumuption of your saying and belief? If so, continue and if not please clarify.
First, If God decreed all things before He knew anything, He must therefore be the author of ALL things pertaining to creation both physicall and spiritual. This includes sin and and righteousness and everyone who falls into both catagories. And it follows the arthor and completor of the dammed as well being they were created for Hell because God first decreed they would be such.
Now as most Calvinist do not believe this, it is still a maintained contradiction with their system of theology based on the pardiam of what they first confessed of what God did in the outset of decreeing all things first and by this having all knowledge.
Regarding my answer you quoted - then answered
Your answer still does not establish any love of God in or for His people but His plan in the first and His people tertiary (I believe they are and hold equal import to God but I'm just saying you have not established this.) The main reason for this is becasue you can not explain any 'why' with it's contextal paradigm (finally learned to spell ) For this it will always remain a short fall. - I believe like many others there is not only a why but that God spelled out the 'why' constistantly in and throught scripture.
IF God first decrees a portion of people from amoung the whole, did He love them only (the portion) and the rest, He did not? If so, now you must identify WHY He loved THEM only since they were exactly like everyone else. (you state pleasure, plan, purpose but now remains the questions of why God did not include ALL men) For since God had the power, means, plan for salvation, purpose (to fulfil His plan for His glory) and pleasure, but did not extend it all (since no deserves His compassion) He would reduce His glory and extent of His praise to a few and not All. Now a better question come up: If God full of mercy and compassion saved some, why not all since Christ satified God justice, we know it would have done so for all?
The Calvinist answer: Cause God said so, but we don't know why.
(True) But there is a why, and if you can not give the why, you are left with great lacking in understanding the Heart and Love of God toward His creation (man) as a whole.
Your answer still does not establish any love of God in or for His people but His plan in the first and His people tertiary (I believe they are and hold equal import to God but I'm just saying you have not established this.) The main reason for this is becasue you can not explain any 'why' with it's contextal paradigm (finally learned to spell
) For this it will always remain a short fall. - I believe like many others there is not only a why but that God spelled out the 'why' constistantly in and throught scripture.IF God first decrees a portion of people from amoung the whole, did He love them only (the portion) and the rest, He did not? If so, now you must identify WHY He loved THEM only since they were exactly like everyone else. (you state pleasure, plan, purpose but now remains the questions of why God did not include ALL men) For since God had the power, means, plan for salvation, purpose (to fulfil His plan for His glory) and pleasure, but did not extend it all (since no deserves His compassion) He would reduce His glory and extent of His praise to a few and not All. Now a better question come up: If God full of mercy and compassion saved some, why not all since Christ satified God justice, we know it would have done so for all?
The Calvinist answer: Cause God said so, but we don't know why.
(True) But there is a why, and if you can not give the why, you are left with great lacking in understanding the Heart and Love of God toward His creation (man) as a whole.
No, His love did not fail to provide the way of salvation, and all those who believe are saved, fulfilling His foreknowledge of pleasure, purpose and plan.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Brother Bob
New Member
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Timothy
The letters to Timothy next to Romans is one of the greatest letters Paul wrote.
The thorne in his side and the time in prison really humbled him, where he was not walking around saying, if you want to see what Jesus looked like look at me, i paraphrased that.
You can see really see the heart of God through those letters, where he started talking like Peter.
That scripture you gave is a calling for believers to reach the world, and to keep believers even closer
Allan said:
The letters to Timothy next to Romans is one of the greatest letters Paul wrote.
The thorne in his side and the time in prison really humbled him, where he was not walking around saying, if you want to see what Jesus looked like look at me, i paraphrased that.
You can see really see the heart of God through those letters, where he started talking like Peter.
That scripture you gave is a calling for believers to reach the world, and to keep believers even closer
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello......Allan said:
1st, I do agree with my statement.
2nd, you are placing your assumptions based on a preconceived anti-model of Calvinism. Based on this, it seems that you have reasoned, if God is in control of all things, then God in fact is the author of sin. This would a limited view of options given to His sovereignty and greater in its limits given to the Calvinist system. I believe I can show God as seen in the Bible, in full control, not forcing man to sin, not making a evil system, but using the sin nature of man and the evil deeds of Satan, bringing glory to Him as our Father and also bring glory to His Son.
In Christ...James
Psalm
It is correct to a point but you have to add a bit to get there. Though I agree the inference is there.
Paraphrase:
In light of (the preceding verses 8-9, concerning salvation) we work and are persacuted (for the Gospel) because our God is trustworthy, who is the Savior of ALL men especially those who believe.
vs 8. says in effect...godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
NOTE: He is trustworthy -In what- ... to extend Salvation to ALL, most particually those that who have trusted already.
It is correct to a point but you have to add a bit to get there. Though I agree the inference is there.
Paraphrase:
In light of (the preceding verses 8-9, concerning salvation) we work and are persacuted (for the Gospel) because our God is trustworthy, who is the Savior of ALL men especially those who believe.
vs 8. says in effect...godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
NOTE: He is trustworthy -In what- ... to extend Salvation to ALL, most particually those that who have trusted already.
Jarth,
No, what I reasoned is Concerning Calvinistsm veiws of Decrees is a wrong concept (or better a wrongly placed concept).
If God decreed all things first and from His decreeing all things were as He decreed them to be. He is the arthur of ALL evil because He decree it TO BE.
It is God decree that sets all things in motions, and His decree gives life to all concepts and ideas. You can not seperate God decreeing sin to be and the person who sins because God from the outset determind that person WILL DO EXACTLY as what He decreed they will do.
But I would be interested to hear your arguements.
Of NOTE: I will note however that J. Calvin himself never actually said He held to limited atonement or even placed it as a major theme in his 40+ volume works. In fact after his works of "Institutes" in his "Commentaries" He view was much more pronounced toward general atonement or unlimited atonement. And yes I can show this if you want. - It is just a side bar
No, what I reasoned is Concerning Calvinistsm veiws of Decrees is a wrong concept (or better a wrongly placed concept).
If God decreed all things first and from His decreeing all things were as He decreed them to be. He is the arthur of ALL evil because He decree it TO BE.
It is God decree that sets all things in motions, and His decree gives life to all concepts and ideas. You can not seperate God decreeing sin to be and the person who sins because God from the outset determind that person WILL DO EXACTLY as what He decreed they will do.
But I would be interested to hear your arguements.
Of NOTE: I will note however that J. Calvin himself never actually said He held to limited atonement or even placed it as a major theme in his 40+ volume works. In fact after his works of "Institutes" in his "Commentaries" He view was much more pronounced toward general atonement or unlimited atonement. And yes I can show this if you want. - It is just a side bar
Brother Bob
New Member
This is why they want no part with the Hyper-Calvinist!
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Allan,
Yes I know well what you mean, and that is why you are wrong. Allow me...
Who made Pharaoh say..."NO you can not GO"..? Was this God...or Pharaoh's will?
Who pulls Gog down to make war? Was this the idea of the King of Gog...or did God do this?
Oh yes..Now I remember who he is. 1st this is wogwash put out by 1 pointers. But...it matters not, now does it? I do not follow a man, I follow the Bible. If Calvin was wrong..He was wrong. Was he wrong at 1st...or was he wrong later? It matters little, for I do not follow Calvin. Show me in the Bible, and I will hold to this.
In Christ...James
Yes I know well what you mean, and that is why you are wrong.
Allow me...Who made Pharaoh say..."NO you can not GO"..? Was this God...or Pharaoh's will?
Who pulls Gog down to make war? Was this the idea of the King of Gog...or did God do this?
God does not decree sins....yet He decrees all things. Reread your statement and you will see what i just said is not the same as what you claim I think.
Stick around, but we need to remove your bias 1st.
John Calvin? Who is he?Of NOTE: I will note however that J. Calvin himself never actually said He held to limited atonement or even placed it as a major theme in his 40+ volume works. In fact after his works of "Institutes" in his "Commentaries" He view was much more pronounced toward general atonement or unlimited atonement. And yes I can show this if you want. - It is just a side bar
Oh yes..Now I remember who he is. 1st this is wogwash put out by 1 pointers. But...it matters not, now does it? I do not follow a man, I follow the Bible. If Calvin was wrong..He was wrong. Was he wrong at 1st...or was he wrong later? It matters little, for I do not follow Calvin. Show me in the Bible, and I will hold to this.
In Christ...James
psalms109:31
Active Member
God
Romans 11:
20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
We who believe are to continue in His kindnes are we will be cut out just like the natural branches were. So we are to take special care of those who believe that they will continue in His kindness, we do not want to lose them. Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, but we can Him. If we disown Him, He will disown us.
If we believe in what Jesus has did for us how can we turn back into the life we once lived.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Allan said:
Romans 11:
20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
We who believe are to continue in His kindnes are we will be cut out just like the natural branches were. So we are to take special care of those who believe that they will continue in His kindness, we do not want to lose them. Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, but we can Him. If we disown Him, He will disown us.
If we believe in what Jesus has did for us how can we turn back into the life we once lived.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Lets start rolling out the verses.
Genesis 20:6
It is said that God must not ilimit man’s freewill, that he must not compel him, for then he would be a machine and or robot. But the above verse proves, that it is not impossible for God to exert His power upon man without destroying his responsibility. Now, this is not sinning, but the point remains. God can control man and not remove his responsibility. God did exert His power, restrict man’s freedom, and prevent him from doing that which he otherwise would have done. Agree?
If God could "withhold" Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam?...or could He..and then why did not God do so?
We might ask, Why did not God "withhold" Satan from falling?
Why did not God stop (withhold) 9/11 planes crashing in NY?
In Christ...James
Genesis 20:6
It is said that God must not ilimit man’s freewill, that he must not compel him, for then he would be a machine and or robot. But the above verse proves, that it is not impossible for God to exert His power upon man without destroying his responsibility. Now, this is not sinning, but the point remains. God can control man and not remove his responsibility. God did exert His power, restrict man’s freedom, and prevent him from doing that which he otherwise would have done. Agree?
If God could "withhold" Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam?...or could He..and then why did not God do so?
We might ask, Why did not God "withhold" Satan from falling?
Why did not God stop (withhold) 9/11 planes crashing in NY?
In Christ...James
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Jarthur001 said:Lets start rolling out the verses.
Genesis 20:6
It is said that God must not ilimit man’s freewill, that he must not compel him, for then he would be a machine and or robot. But the above verse proves, that it is not impossible for God to exert His power upon man without destroying his responsibility. Now, this is not sinning, but the point remains. God can control man and not remove his responsibility. God did exert His power, restrict man’s freedom, and prevent him from doing that which he otherwise would have done. Agree?
If God could "withhold" Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam?...or could He..and then why did not God do so?
We might ask, Why did not God "withhold" Satan from falling?
Why did not God stop (withhold) 9/11 planes crashing in NY?
In Christ...James
He did what He did in clear concience,
My qusetion is how does God direct our path, to keep us from sinning against Him?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Balaam and mans freewill.....
Num. 22: 38
Num. 23: 12 and 20
These verses show us God’s power, and Balaam’s powerlessness
Man’s will is frustrated even controled by God, and God’s will performed fully. But was Balaam’s responsibility destroyed? No.
Num. 22: 38
Num. 23: 12 and 20
These verses show us God’s power, and Balaam’s powerlessness
Man’s will is frustrated even controled by God, and God’s will performed fully. But was Balaam’s responsibility destroyed? No.
Jarthur001
Active Member
psalms109:31 said:
In some cases He does not. God can use a unbelieveing sinner to draw him with his own lust to sin and use this to bring glory to Him. Does God make the sinner sin? No, but God knows he will sin and at times uses this to His glory.
Case in point was Hitler. God placed Hitler in power for many reasons. One reason was that he used Hitlers lust for power and hate for the jews to control Hitler into bringing so much killing and evil onto the Jews life that the Jews would long to go back to their home land. It worked and Gods name was praised.
Did God make Hitler sin? No. That lust to sin was in Hitler from the start. (james 1) Hitler is still held accountable for his sins. As far as Hitler knew, Hitler was free to say NO to the drawing, if it were not for sin in his heart. God know Hitler would sin and counted on it, therefore USED Hitler. This shows how God can control sinners and yet not MAKE them sin. After much pain...this brought glory to God.
Did this hurt Hitlers? Hitler was on his way to hell before this, and after this. It changed Hitler in no way.
Here we have man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty placed into action. These holy men were moved" ( borne along) by the Holy Spirit, yet was not their moral responsibility disturbed nor their "freedom" impaired. How was it done in this case…
1) God enlightened their minds,
2) Enkindled their hearts,
3) Revealed to them His truth
4) and …So controlled them that error on their part was, by God, made impossible, as they communicated His mind and will to men.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello.............time for another verse.
1st we have a story.
Lets say Joe has a temper. Some may say to "Joe, you have the same temper as your dad". Joe may even claim after he slams has hand into the wall, and kicks the cat and belittles the lady of the house, that he was NOT responsible for his actions for he got his temper from his father.
Would we not tell Joe, "it matters not where you got your temper, it is you that are responsible to control it?" Yes I'm sure we would.
Joe has a temper he must deal with , yet he is fully responsible and not his dad. We all have like sins that we face in our life. We each have a sin, a weakness in our nature, in which we must claim responsible for, even though it is harder for us to control then others. In fact, if it be sin, we cannot control it, without the help of God.
This is "sin nature 101". Seeing this in a simple way, we cannot say that God is unjust to give us this sin nature, and like wise we can not claim we have not responsible.
"But it controls me!!" Yes...but you are still responsible before God
Our verse for the moment...
Prov. 16:9
Do we have a great God or what???????
In Christ...James
1st we have a story.
Lets say Joe has a temper. Some may say to "Joe, you have the same temper as your dad". Joe may even claim after he slams has hand into the wall, and kicks the cat and belittles the lady of the house, that he was NOT responsible for his actions for he got his temper from his father.
Would we not tell Joe, "it matters not where you got your temper, it is you that are responsible to control it?" Yes I'm sure we would.
Joe has a temper he must deal with , yet he is fully responsible and not his dad. We all have like sins that we face in our life. We each have a sin, a weakness in our nature, in which we must claim responsible for, even though it is harder for us to control then others. In fact, if it be sin, we cannot control it, without the help of God.
This is "sin nature 101". Seeing this in a simple way, we cannot say that God is unjust to give us this sin nature, and like wise we can not claim we have not responsible.
"But it controls me!!" Yes...but you are still responsible before God
Our verse for the moment...
Prov. 16:9
Do we have a great God or what???????
In Christ...James
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Hello again Jarth,
Give me a little bit as my wifes parents are here visiting and a state fair is in town (which the Grandparents what to take us too. )
I will say In a quick short.
Abim... In the integrity of his heart - Is the key to that whole eposode, and Not God controling Him - I will answer better.
The others from Numbers and the one on those who prophesy being born by the Spirit of God.
These were already those who have chosen to submit themselves to the Control of God in their lives. - I will answer these as well.
Appreciate your diligence. :thumbsup:
Give me a little bit as my wifes parents are here visiting and a state fair is in town (which the Grandparents what to take us too.
)I will say In a quick short.
Abim... In the integrity of his heart - Is the key to that whole eposode, and Not God controling Him - I will answer better.
The others from Numbers and the one on those who prophesy being born by the Spirit of God.
These were already those who have chosen to submit themselves to the Control of God in their lives. - I will answer these as well.
Appreciate your diligence. :thumbsup: