Roman Catholic...Christian or Cult?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, we ARE missionaries in this world. I know that in the area we're planting our new church, a vast majority (I don't remember the exact number) are Catholic so we will be ministering to those. We're actually having a man come to our church at the end of the month (we'll be missing it because of vacation but we'll get it taped) who will be teaching on witnessing and ministering to the Catholics in our area.

Around here, I find that most are not "religious" Catholics but "cultural" Cathoics. In other words, they don't really believe everything the church teaches but they were baptized there and it's all they know. MANY don't go to church except on special occasions or they go because "they are supposed to". I do have some friends who are more "religious" Catholics who are quite involved in the church and believe all it teaches and love to be in the walls of their parish. They fully practice the Catholic faith and minister with the church as well (one is a deacon looking to become a priest and the other is a cantor who works with multiple churches in the area). There are a few others I know like them who I attended Catholic school with but they are certainly not in the majority.

The Sister Superior (I always wondered what she was superior to?) used to vilify most of my Catholic family in the parish by calling them "Cafeteria Catholics" Come to think of it, she was very accurate because they all picked & chose what they wanted to believe & ignore. And there was allot they ignored in order to keep peace. Guess thats how you get by belonging to them for 2000 odd years.

 

[Dr. Walter]

We are not talking about individual Catholics. We are talking about the Catholic church whether it is Christian as an institution or "church."

I know many saved Catholics are in the church of Rome and yet are on their way to heaven because they reject the gospel of Rome.

However, the institution is anything but "Christian" in any Biblical sense of the term, even as the pagans used the term in Acts 11. It is a den of iniquity and the haven of demons (1 Tim. 4:1).

 

[Dr. Walter]

The gospel is about Jesus Christ and his provision for sin is the sole object of faith for justification before God. It is his provision that justifies "the ungodly" who believe "IN" that promised provision. There is no justification before God by YOUR provision of faithfulness as that would be justificaiton of "the godly."

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rome is in the business of preaching and teaching a gospel of justificaiton of the "godly" by good works! They repudiate and reject Jesus Christ and his provision as what justifies but replaces it by "faith" defined as "faithfulness" or YOUR PROVISION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS so God will justify "the godly." No such man exists.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Thinking stuff....

Concerning the false church of Rome, you said...

They are christian in the biblical sense

Its christian to engage in goddess worship?

Its christian to place a curse on the true gospel?

Its christian to proclaim a false gospel?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thinking stuff....

Concerning the false church of Rome, you said...






Its christian to engage in goddess worship?

Its christian to place a curse on the true gospel?

Its christian to proclaim a false gospel?

If Rome preaches the correct gospel than to be consistent with that gospel you better be baptized into the Catholic Church as that is the very thing they teach to be consistent with their gospel. Oh yes, they make exceptions to THE RULE based upon inability or ignorance but there is none on this forum who are without ability or in ignorance. So, if you believe Rome teaches the true gospel be consistent and join that church.

On the other hand, if Rome preaches "another gospel" then she is "accursed" and no one in their right mind will argue that an "accursed" church is "Christian." - period - end of story.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What you brought up was my position on the gospel! Can't you read and understand your own paraphase you gave in regard to my position on the gospel????????? Here is what you said:

All who preach another gospel than what I preach and how I understand it to be are deceived or lost or both and in addition to "accursed" and therefore think everyone else is deceived

So, I am not arguing with myself! I am simply stating what Christ and Paul repeatedly state - there are but two opposing views and you are either believing and defending one or the other. Your own mouth condemns you as a defender of the "accursed" gospel. Don't say you don't believe or teach it as you just defended that very position on the other thread in defense of Andre.

No, I am not wrong on my view of the gospel and I have proven it and will continue to prove it and you nor Andre have been able to respond with any credible evidence to the contrary.

No. You are apply what Paul said to your understanding of the Gospel.

 

[Alive in Christ]

I'm with you. I don't agree with them on a lot of things, but we are the same Church. I have known a number of Catholics that are believers.

Nobody is claiming that every single catholic is lost. I'm sure some have stumbled upon saving faith. And some might even stay in the cult even after being born again.

We are only speaking of the institution known as the Catholic Church of Rome.

The Catholic chaticism, the Council of Trent, the catholic ensyclopedia, and various other councils etc etc all condemn the Catholic Church of Rome as being heretical and a false cult.

They are NOT part of the "Church" worldwide, just like the JW's and Mormons aren't.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No. You are apply what Paul said to your understanding of the Gospel.

You just don't get it do you!! That is exactly what you are doing as well! There is no middle ground! You are either beleiving in the true gospel or you are believing in the false gospel - there are no other options.

So yes, I believe the scriptures teach that justification before God is without works and obviously must be as God justifies the "UNGODLY" not the godly. This forces justification according to CHRIST'S WORKS as the "ungodly" have no works that justify them before God as they are "UNGODLY." The competitive position on justificaiton is that God justifies the "godly" at the Great White Seat Judgement according to YOUR WORKS.

Of course I believe that I am teaching the Scriptural gospel and I go to great lengths to prove it and to disprove the gospel you are espousing. Only an idiot would claim to espouse a gospel that Paul condemns!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Rome is but hypocrisy and confusion! Get rid of the confessional booth then. Get rid of the candles in front of idols and pictures then! Get rid of Maryology then! Get rid of praying to the saints then! Get rid of the Pope as the "vicar" of Christ then!

Your response is absolute foolishness and you know it.

You're going to have to prove that point.

Get rid of the confessional booth then

Why? James 5:13-16

13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Its certainly based on scripture.

Get rid of the candles in front of idols

First mistake. There are no idols in Catholic Church. There a statue dipictions of the saints. And why get rid of candles in the church? Leviticus

Make a lampstand of pure gold and hammer it out, base and shaft; its flowerlike cups, buds and blossoms shall be of one piece with it.

and why say this?

Get rid of Maryology then

Are you suggesting that Mary did not give birth to the fulness of Jesus Christ but was some weird amalgamation that neither is fully God or fully man? Or are you saying we shouldn't respect the mother of Jesus Christ. That maybe we should treat her like a prostitute? Is that better?

Get rid of the Pope as the "vicar" of Christ then

Why? The definition of vicar from its latin roots Vicarus is

is a representative, anyone acting "in the person of" or agent for a superior

Yet the scriptures tell us that

you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thinking stuff....

Concerning the false church of Rome, you said...






Its christian to engage in goddess worship?

Its christian to place a curse on the true gospel?

Its christian to proclaim a false gospel?

Alive....would you please expound on you usage of "goddness worship" or do you mean Godless? In that case why is a Catholic a Godless worshiper?

Oh I get it..... "Goddess" like as in Mary..... Never Mind. I will have to look into that.


I googled this statement from a Catholic document:

An honest, careful study of the pagan goddess cults will reveal that, apart from a few externals (i.e., the goddess may be considered a virgin and/or mother), they have nothing in common with the Catholic relationship to Mary. The Catholic relationship to Mary cannot compare to the profane, debauched worship once offered to goddesses. The goddess Gaia (Mother Earth) is a symbol that stands for everything that goes against what Mary would have us to believe. Mary would not have us worship the earth, Mary would not have us exalt the sensual pleasure of sex outside of marriage, Mary would not have us profaning the name of her Son Jesus. Mary is not into watering down her Son's message with other religions. Mary is about one thing and one thing only - her Son Jesus.

...every single Roman Catholic I have ever known has regarded Mary as a woman of spotless character, a virgin, one that was totally dedicated to God and virtue - not any of these attributes fit the pagan goddess Semiramis! Her lifestyle was the very opposite.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinking stuff....

Concerning the false church of Rome, you said...






Its christian to engage in goddess worship?

No. They don't believe Mary is a goddess. and as far as images consider the Catachism

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

And as far as Mary

What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

Its christian to place a curse on the true gospel?

No. And Catholics do not.

Its christian to proclaim a false gospel?

No and catholics do not.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nobody is claiming that every single catholic is lost. I'm sure some have stumbled upon saving faith. And some might even stay in the cult even after being born again.

We are only speaking of the institution known as the Catholic Church of Rome.

The Catholic chaticism, the Council of Trent, the catholic ensyclopedia, and various other councils etc etc all condemn the Catholic Church of Rome as being heretical and a false cult.

They are NOT part of the "Church" worldwide, just like the JW's and Mormons aren't.

Not one of those documents have condemned the Catholic church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You just don't get it do you!! That is exactly what you are doing as well! There is no middle ground! You are either beleiving in the true gospel or you are believing in the false gospel - there are no other options.

So yes, I believe the scriptures teach that justification before God is without works and obviously must be as God justifies the "UNGODLY" not the godly. This forces justification according to CHRIST'S WORKS as the "ungodly" have no works that justify them before God as they are "UNGODLY." The competitive position on justificaiton is that God justifies the "godly" at the Great White Seat Judgement according to YOUR WORKS.

Of course I believe that I am teaching the Scriptural gospel and I go to great lengths to prove it and to disprove the gospel you are espousing. Only an idiot would claim to espouse a gospel that Paul condemns!

I believe the true gospel as preached by the apostles and recorded in scripture. I wonder if you do. In order to have a workable debate on Justification whether its by works or not, or Salvation in the same context we need to define the terms that we mean and how its used. For instance.

Salvation how do you define it? Do you define it as

Salvation has in Scriptural language the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security

? And what does that entail? How about justification? Do you define it as

A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone

? Or do you have a different definition?

 

[Zenas]

The Catholic chaticism, the Council of Trent, the catholic ensyclopedia, and various other councils etc etc all condemn the Catholic Church of Rome as being heretical and a false cult.

Say what?

 

[Zenas]

I guess Jedi Knight didn't like my suggestion that he define "cult." Over time I have observed that whatever you think a cult is, it is not something you belong to. It is always something someone else belongs to. I have never seen anyone admit to belonging to a cult.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Thinkingstuff...

I dont think Dr Walter has anything against candles per'se.

Its the Catholic view of candles as a sort a of magic that is the problem.

In many Catholic Churchs they have a bunch of candles that have been *blessed* by a *priest*

If a catholic has a loved one in a dire health situation they are encouraged to go and light a candle and it will help your prayer in *magically* getting them well, and they wont die.

It is commom for these candles to have a big statue of *Mary* behind them all...subtley incorperating catholic goddess worship in with the *magic* candle lighting.

! was a catholic for 24 years before finally finding Christ. I saw this stuff 1st hand mutitudes of times.

God have mercy

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe the true gospel as preached by the apostles and recorded in scripture. I wonder if you do. In order to have a workable debate on Justification whether its by works or not, or Salvation in the same context we need to define the terms that we mean and how its used. For instance.

Salvation how do you define it? Do you define it as ? And what does that entail? How about justification? Do you define it as ? Or do you have a different definition?

You have no concept of the true gospel! None - nada - zilch! We have already had these defintion debates and you believe that ulitmately YOUR WORKS at the judgement seat establish heaven or hell. If you are a saved person (and you might well be) you are enshrined in ignorance of the gospel.

"Salvation" is a general term that takes in everything from Election in eternity past to glorified and rewarded eternal condition in heaven in the future. It involvse the past tense, present tense and future tense of salvation which all who believe in works for salvation totally confuse with each other.

"Justification" of THE UNGODLY by definition denies "good" works are involved or else it would be justificaiton of the GODLY as by definition includes "good" works.

I am not arguing with you any more. You know how I define terms as I have defined them just like this over and over to you. You simply want to argue - period - you are not interested in the truth - you are interested in perpetuating your heresies.

 

[lori4dogs]

Thinkingstuff...

I dont think Dr Walter has anything against candles per'se.

Its the Catholic view of candles as a sort a of magic that is the problem.

In many Catholic Churchs they have a bunch of candles that have been *blessed* by a *priest*

If a catholic has a loved one in a dire health situation they are encouraged to go and light a candle and it will help your prayer in *magically* getting them well, and they wont die.

It is commom for these candles to have a big statue of *Mary* behind them all...subtley incorperating catholic goddess worship in with the *magic* candle lighting.

! was a catholic for 24 years before finally finding Christ. I saw this stuff 1st hand mutitudes of times.

God have mercy

Lord have mercy, indeed!

I'm afraid you weren't much of Catholic if you believe all the hogwash you just wrote. Good grief!!

 

[Dr. Walter]

I guess Jedi Knight didn't like my suggestion that he define "cult." Over time I have observed that whatever you think a cult is, it is not something you belong to. It is always something someone else belongs to. I have never seen anyone admit to belonging to a cult.

The term "cult" has gone through a process of change from one sense to another because of changed usage. Today, it is commonly used among Christians as a negative description of a false religion or church. To say something that claims to be a Christian church is a "cult" is a common way to deny it is Christian in the sense of New Testament teaching and in particular to essential New Testament doctrines. In that sense Rome is a cult (Gal. 1:8-9).

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Is the Roman Catholic Church christian or a cult?

Cult......