Roman Catholic...Christian or Cult?

[Thinkingstuff]

You have no concept of the true gospel! None - nada - zilch! We have already had these defintion debates and you believe that ulitmately YOUR WORKS at the judgement seat establish heaven or hell. If you are a saved person (and you might well be) you are enshrined in ignorance of the gospel.

My works don't save. They make me more like Christ. Big difference in understanding. For instance there is nothing I can do to persuade God to allow me admittance into heaven. God of his own free will and own initiative became a man and died for my sins. God of his own initiative gave me the faith to believe in Jesus. But it doesn't stop there like Paul I strive for perfection and worked to become more Christ like. You seem to always mix up the later with the former.

"

Salvation" is a general term that takes in everything from Election in eternity past to glorified and rewarded eternal condition in heaven in the future. It involvse the past tense, present tense and future tense of salvation which all who believe in works for salvation totally confuse with each other.

No I think you confuse as I've noted above.
"

Justification" of THE UNGODLY by definition denies "good" works are involved or else it would be justificaiton of the GODLY as by definition includes "good" works.

wrong. Your still not giving a working definition of Justification. I have. You haven't.

I am not arguing with you any more. You know how I define terms as I have defined them just like this over and over to you. You simply want to argue - period - you are not interested in the truth - you are interested in perpetuating your heresies.

You define terms to assist your theology and bash other people rather than use a working definition that both can refer to.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thinkingstuff...

I dont think Dr Walter has anything against candles per'se.

Its the Catholic view of candles as a sort a of magic that is the problem.

In many Catholic Churchs they have a bunch of candles that have been *blessed* by a *priest*

If a catholic has a loved one in a dire health situation they are encouraged to go and light a candle and it will help your prayer in *magically* getting them well, and they wont die.

It is commom for these candles to have a big statue of *Mary* behind them all...subtley incorperating catholic goddess worship in with the *magic* candle lighting.

! was a catholic for 24 years before finally finding Christ. I saw this stuff 1st hand mutitudes of times.

God have mercy

So now your what, an Ex Catholic converted to Baptist? Are you also a Calvinist?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Lord have mercy, indeed!

I'm afraid you weren't much of Catholic if you believe all the hogwash you just wrote. Good grief!!

The "majic" is the SUPERSTITIOUS belief that the use of any kind of Mediatorial object or person can be used to approach God THROUGH other than Jesus Christ. The Bible clearly states every child of God has direct access to the throne of God through Christ (Heb. 10:19-20). This was the function of the Preists alone in the Old Testament. Hence, every child of God is regarded as "preists" in this sense of approaching God directly. To place ANYTHING in between as a MEDIATOR is supersititious nonsense at minimum and is rejection of Christ's finished works of redemption at maximum.

 

[annsni]

The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

Hence the problem.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkingstuff...

I dont think Dr Walter has anything against candles per'se.

Thats good to note.

Its the Catholic view of candles as a sort a of magic that is the problem

Catholics don't believe they are magic. Certainly representative of spiritual truths or symbols but they don't opperate magically.

In many Catholic Churchs they have a bunch of candles that have been *blessed* by a *priest*

this is often misunderstood by non Catholics and Catholics a like. First you have to understand what the word holy means. Holy comes from the hebrew consept of kedushah which means to set apart. This has been translated into latin as sanctum or again to set apart for a special purpose. So If I use a coffee mug only for morning coffee and not tea or water but only for coffee, I have a holy coffee mug or a mug set apart for a special use. When a priest "bless" something he's seting it apart for a special purpose. Its not magical or to be used for a different purpose.

If a catholic has a loved one in a dire health situation they are encouraged to go and light a candle and it will help your prayer in *magically* getting them well, and they wont die

What is being confused here is the Catholic is being encouraged to engage in a devotion. What is a devotion? Well, its

a form of prayer or worship for special use

. So lighting a candle acts as a symbol to remind people of the properties of God which drives away the darkness, fills the room, provide comfort and security, provids warmth, smoke lifts to heaven like our prayers. ETC... thus it is meant to help focus prayers. What makes a person well is not the candle but focus on God and God's willingness to heal.

It is commom for these candles to have a big statue of *Mary* behind them all...subtley incorperating catholic goddess worship in with the *magic* candle lighting.

Catholics don't believe mary is a god but a saved person who prays for all the saints going through this life. Big distinction. Catholics believe in the eternal membership in the Body of Christ whereby all believers no matter in what state they are in prayer for those in need.

! was a catholic for 24 years before finally finding Christ. I saw this stuff 1st hand mutitudes of times.

God have mercy

And like many Catholics or most catholics Catachesis failed you and you bought into the "myth" of the Catholic church rather than what the Catholic Teaches. did you know for instance what many catholics do like visit images of mary on freeways etc is condemned by the Catholic church? Or statues of st. Josephs that are buried to sell houses are also condemned as heretical? Yet many Catholics still do this.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Why don't you just be honest and say "My works don't save/justify me but without works I wont be saved/justified." That is the double talk of all justification by work advocates. Bottom line, in the end you are justified by your works - period.

The Biblical teaching is that the works of Christ JUSTIFY the "ungodly" alone - period! Thus in the use of the past tense "saved" a person is regenerated and justified as a COMPLETED ONCE FOR ALL ACTION so that they shall never come into judgement where eternal life versus eternal death are in view but have PASSED (perfect tense) already, once and for all, into life and that is why they currently possess "eternal" life presently, now. Thus, justified by faith means that one is viewed/seen/reckoned by God in regard to his LEGAL standing as RIGHTEOUS - not guilty - fully acquitted - never to come into judgement in reference to eternal death or eternal life again - period! All His sins have been remitted or else he would have to come into judgement again. He is sinlessly righteous in regard to his LEGAL STANDING - POSITION or else he would have to come into judgement again.

Good works play absolutely no part in obtaining, maintaining or ultimately determining eternal life here or then. They are the developmental progressive incomplete, imperfect, thus sin tainted aspects of Christian growth originating out of New birth and necessary for spiritual growth, experiential blessings, usefulness, eternal position and rewards and without such works the saint shall "suffer loss" of all these things but not heaven (I Cor. 3:11-15).

Matthew 5:16-48 can be given to defend the position above and I have done it before and silenced your mouth and can do it again.

My works don't save. They make me more like Christ. Big difference in understanding. For instance there is nothing I can do to persuade God to allow me admittance into heaven. God of his own free will and own initiative became a man and died for my sins. God of his own initiative gave me the faith to believe in Jesus. But it doesn't stop there like Paul I strive for perfection and worked to become more Christ like. You seem to always mix up the later with the former.

" No I think you confuse as I've noted above.
" wrong. Your still not giving a working definition of Justification. I have. You haven't.
You define terms to assist your theology and bash other people rather than use a working definition that both can refer to.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hence the problem.

Its basically saying that the statue is a Picture of a saint and helps us to consentrate on their good qualities that we may incorporate such qualities into our life. Like I want to be bold like Peter or Paul with sharing the Gospel when I see a picture of their representation I try to imitate them by following their example in the gospel. Thus no problem. I just don't think you understand what it said.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Its basically saying that the statue is a Picture of a saint and helps us to consentrate on their good qualities that we may incorporate such qualities into our life. Like I want to be bold like Peter or Paul with sharing the Gospel when I see a picture of their representation I try to imitate them by following their example in the gospel. Thus no problem. I just don't think you understand what it said.

Foolish/stupid/nonsensical but the repeated use of the first person pronouns is revealing!

Why do I say foolish/stupid/nonsensical? Because that is how all IDOLATERS explain their worship of obvious inanimate objects that cannot speak, move or see. They are mere objects for the mind to focus on the reality behind them. That is the essence of idolatry - it begins first as a MENTAL concept and then cannot avoid to be an object of veneration. Thus the rational explanation to avoid the obvious is to reverse the obvious to a MENTAL focus.


Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess Jedi Knight didn't like my suggestion that he define "cult." Over time I have observed that whatever you think a cult is, it is not something you belong to. It is always something someone else belongs to. I have never seen anyone admit to belonging to a cult.

Funny Z, If I didn't know you better I'd think you could possibly be accusing someone of something ..... But naaaa! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Why don't you just be honest and say "My works don't save/justify me but without works I wont be saved/justified."

Because thats not what I said. You can see clearly what it is I did say and that wasn't it.

That is the double talk of all justification by work advocates. Bottom line, in the end you are justified by your works - period.

See there you go again making definitions fit your theology so you can bash others. Are you against working towards being in the image of christ? Because it certainly sounds like thats what you are saying.

The Biblical teaching is that the works of Christ JUSTIFY the "ungodly" alone - period!

Passage.

Thus in the use of the past tense "saved" a person is regenerated and justified as a COMPLETED ONCE FOR ALL ACTION

Jesus perfect sacrifice is once and for all. We still strive for perfection. Or don't you believe you do? I know Calvin did.

LEGAL standing as RIGHTEOUS

This is your problem you've limited your self to the BAR. God wants us to be like his son. He's pleased when we try.
God is speaking more than

LEGAL STANDING

and very much conserned with

POSITION

Your stuck with legal standing. When God wants to place you in a filial position.

Good works play absolutely no part in obtaining, maintaining or ultimately determining eternal life here or then

. Then you deny the very common evangelical view of crowns of Glory given by the saints to then thow at the feet of Christ!

Matthew 5:16-48 can be given to defend the position above and I have done it before and silenced your mouth and can do it again.

Actually, that verse doesn't shut my mouth nor support your position. What you have done with me to still me is insult me with your venomous words saying things like

Pathetic!

or

silenced your mouth

which angered me to the extent that I refused to speak with you. You have been so contemptuous with anyone who disagrees with you that this type of dialogue quickly angers the other poster. Don't be decieved it isn't your great apologetical work but your venom that gets to people. In this passage you quickly gloss over the very first verse. And you take out of context the passage. Matthew was written to the Jews and to people who understood clearly the distinction of the law. You also miss the point where Jesus said

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It is clear what Jesus is saying. He doesn't support your position.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Earth wind and fire...

So now your what, an Ex Catholic converted to Baptist? Are you also a Calvinist?

I am an ex Catholic converted Christianity.

I am an evangelical christian who fellowships at a Baptist church.

I do not hold to Calvinism.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Foolish/stupid/nonsensical but the repeated use of the first person pronouns is revealing!

You reveal yourself Dr. Walter

Foolish/stupid/nonsensical

. You cannot discuss save to insult. Very telling. In fact more telling then my use of personal pronouns. When a person is modifying themselves when they discuss it they naturally use personal pronoun such as Paul here

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin...14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Why do I say foolish/stupid/nonsensical

Because you cannot discuss save to insult.

Because that is how all IDOLATERS explain their worship of obvious inanimate objects that cannot speak, move or see

How many idolaters do you know Dr. Walter? I know many budhist and Hindus who actually are Idolaters. I know a few wiccans and pagans as well. Do you really know them and what they believe? I think you've exagerated your premise here.

They are mere objects for the mind to focus on the reality behind them.

As are pictures unless that picture of your wife on your desk you believe its really her. You don't do you?

That is the essence of idolatry

here I disagree with you entirely. Idolatry is

Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God

Which causes your criticism to fail.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

So God sinned when he told Moses to make Seraphim on the cover of the lid to the Ark of the Covenant? Is this not so? Did not Solomon also sin in Making images in his Temple?

 

[Dr. Walter]

My works don't save/justify me but without works I wont be saved/justified

So, that is not what you meant? Heh? Then if it isn't I will reverse it as the reverse is the only other choice:

My works don't save/justify me but without works I will be saved/justified

Are you willing to embrace that????? I don't think so from what you have posted already about justification by works.

You are sure one to talk about venomous words. I get sick and tired of hearing you defend Roman Catholic nonsense. You openly oppose the truth of God's Word in your defense of such obvious unbiblical foolishness.

Instead of enlightening people who are in a struggle for truth, instead you corrupt them with Roman Catholic foolishness as though it were truth. If you actually beleive the foolshness you are spouting off, you are a Roman Catholic IN DOCTRINE at minimal if you are not an actual Roman Catholic in practice. You are deceiving people with an air of piety that is ungodly. Why don't you use your professed freedom from Roman Harlotry and expose it rather than defend it????? Because in doctrine you are still a Roman Catholic - in doctrine!

Because thats not what I said. You can see clearly what it is I did say and that wasn't it.
See there you go again making definitions fit your theology so you can bash others. Are you against working towards being in the image of christ? Because it certainly sounds like thats what you are saying.
Passage. Jesus perfect sacrifice is once and for all. We still strive for perfection. Or don't you believe you do? I know Calvin did. This is your problem you've limited your self to the BAR. God wants us to be like his son. He's pleased when we try.
God is speaking more than and very much conserned with Your stuck with legal standing. When God wants to place you in a filial position.


. Then you deny the very common evangelical view of crowns of Glory given by the saints to then thow at the feet of Christ!
Actually, that verse doesn't shut my mouth nor support your position. What you have done with me to still me is insult me with your venomous words saying things like or which angered me to the extent that I refused to speak with you. You have been so contemptuous with anyone who disagrees with you that this type of dialogue quickly angers the other poster. Don't be decieved it isn't your great apologetical work but your venom that gets to people. In this passage you quickly gloss over the very first verse. And you take out of context the passage. Matthew was written to the Jews and to people who understood clearly the distinction of the law. You also miss the point where Jesus said It is clear what Jesus is saying. He doesn't support your position.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps we should get a Heretic/ Cult / & Apostate list started!

1)RC's - Always on Top

2) Anglicans & Episcopalians (maybe even Lutherans) --- Why there too darn close to the RC's.

3) Methodists.... especially those United Methodists

4) Lets list the Presbyterians & give double billing to the Reformed Churches.....start with the obvious apostates

5) Calvinist (see #4 / Presbyterians)

6) Mormons, JW & everyone from that ilk (Sub Heading: Unitarians)

7)Witches & Warlocks( subheading: Jews because they drink the blood of Christian children @ night when nobody's looking)

Now, who gets to hold the list in safe keeping? :tongue3:

PS: Oh, Oh, Oh.......almost forgot Thanks TS.......8) Buddhists, Seiks & Hindus (Subheading dreaded Muslims)

funny that Roman Catliks always go 1st! LOL

 

[Thinkingstuff]

My works don't save/justify me but without works I wont be saved/justified

So, that is not what you meant? Heh? Then if it isn't I will reverse it as the reverse is the only other choice:

My works don't save/justify me but without works I will be saved/justified

Are you willing to embrace that????? I don't think so from what you have posted already about justification by works.

You are sure one to talk about venomous words. I get sick and tired of hearing you defend Roman Catholic nonsense. You openly oppose the truth of God's Word in your defense of such obvious unbiblical foolishness.

Instead of enlightening people who are in a struggle for truth, instead you corrupt them with Roman Catholic foolishness as though it were truth. If you actually beleive the foolshness you are spouting off, you are a Roman Catholic IN DOCTRINE at minimal if you are not an actual Roman Catholic in practice. You are deceiving people with an air of piety that is ungodly. Why don't you use your professed freedom from Roman Harlotry and expose it rather than defend it????? Because in doctrine you are still a Roman Catholic - in doctrine!

The fact is I believe Catholics (that are saved) to be Christians and I believe the RCC to be just as christian as any other denomination. I believe what often happens is their positions are often misrepresented as I've shown you how you've misrepresented their position. You throw the baby out with the bath water. There is somethings which they can offer which protestant churches I know have lacking such as spiritual disciplines. Teaching of suffering as Paul speaks of it and looked forward to it so that he could partake in the sufferings of Christ. rather than name it and claim it view of doctrine.
I enlighten people by showing them scripture and let the holy spirit work. You accuse criticize and abuse. And Lori can tell you that I've called her and the Catholic church on a few things. I even tried to get a thread going just for that purpose but it turned into a false accusation thread stating things that catholics don't believe and I got nowhere.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your explanations fully justify the descriptives I used. God condemns these things in the use of worship. You wife's picture is not used as a means of worship or veneration or medium between you and God. The same is true for the term "father".

Don't give me the Roman Catholic garbage about the brazen serpent and other things God commanded to be made and used in the Old Covenant House of God UNLESS you can show me where God specifically gave instructions to use candles, pictures, statues, etc. in the New Covenant house of God.

What God commanded to be made and used in the Old Testament were TYPES not objects for veneration or mediation between God and man.

Produce New Testament Revelation where God specifically instructs the making and use of ANYTHING in the New Testametn Church that is found in the church of Rome that stands between the catholic and God! The Old Covenant house of God has been abolished so why go back and resurrect it for use in the churches??????????

BTW everything inside the Tabernacle and holy place and holies of holy were CONCEALED from the common Israelite.

You reveal yourself Dr. Walter . You cannot discuss save to insult. Very telling. In fact more telling then my use of personal pronouns. When a person is modifying themselves when they discuss it they naturally use personal pronoun such as Paul here

Because you cannot discuss save to insult. How many idolaters do you know Dr. Walter? I know many budhist and Hindus who actually are Idolaters. I know a few wiccans and pagans as well. Do you really know them and what they believe? I think you've exagerated your premise here. As are pictures unless that picture of your wife on your desk you believe its really her. You don't do you? here I disagree with you entirely. Idolatry is Which causes your criticism to fail.

So God sinned when he told Moses to make Seraphim on the cover of the lid to the Ark of the Covenant? Is this not so? Did not Solomon also sin in Making images in his Temple?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My works don't save/justify me but without works I wont be saved/justified

So, that is not what you meant? Heh? Then if it isn't I will reverse it as the reverse is the only other choice:

My works don't save/justify me but without works I will be saved/justified

Are you willing to embrace that????? I don't think so from what you have posted already about justification by works.

You are sure one to talk about venomous words. I get sick and tired of hearing you defend Roman Catholic nonsense. You openly oppose the truth of God's Word in your defense of such obvious unbiblical foolishness.

Instead of enlightening people who are in a struggle for truth, instead you corrupt them with Roman Catholic foolishness as though it were truth. If you actually beleive the foolshness you are spouting off, you are a Roman Catholic IN DOCTRINE at minimal if you are not an actual Roman Catholic in practice. You are deceiving people with an air of piety that is ungodly. Why don't you use your professed freedom from Roman Harlotry and expose it rather than defend it????? Because in doctrine you are still a Roman Catholic - in doctrine!

OK, I will prepare the stake......do we get to draw & quarter him first?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Dr. Walter]

The fact is I believe Catholics (that are saved) to be Christians and I believe the RCC to be just as christian as any other denomination. I believe what often happens is their positions are often misrepresented as I've shown you how you've misrepresented their position. You throw the baby out with the bath water. There is somethings which they can offer which protestant churches I know have lacking such as spiritual disciplines. Teaching of suffering as Paul speaks of it and looked forward to it so that he could partake in the sufferings of Christ. rather than name it and claim it view of doctrine.
I enlighten people by showing them scripture and let the holy spirit work. You accuse criticize and abuse. And Lori can tell you that I've called her and the Catholic church on a few things. I even tried to get a thread going just for that purpose but it turned into a false accusation thread stating things that catholics don't believe and I got nowhere.

You ignored the reversal of that statement? Why? You claim I misrepresented your position by the first statement, so I reversed it? Both cannot be right as they are polar opposites so which is it?

I have never criticized you for TRUTH but for what you have defended as truth which in reality is wrong! You have justified their use of MEDIUMS between man and God. You have justified their interpetation of the second commandment which is wrong. You have defended their traditions that are anti-scriptural and I am not alone on this. There are other ex-catholics on this forum who know you are doing that and have equally accused you of that.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Listen, Idolatry is placing anything in the place of God. It can be your car, IF, that comes between you and faithful attendance in God's house or a stumbling block in keeping any of God's commandments. It can be your "belly" if comes before serving God. It can be wrong priorities that keep you back from God's priorities.

Idolatry cannot be restricted to externals but it is a condition of the heart that places ANYTHING before God.

When the Bible clearly tells us that there is one Mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, then, to seek some saint or pray to Mary in order to approach Christ or God is IDOLATRY in the purest spiritual sense.

If you are bowing down, praying to IMMATERIAL OBJECTS as mediums between you and God that is IDOLATRY.

When John simply fell at angel's feet he was rebuked much less falling before a statue of Mary or one of the saints or a picture as an act of veneration.

Idolatry is placing anything IN THE PLACE OF God or anything BETWEEN you and God or anything to REPLACE the commandments of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The fact is I believe Catholics (that are saved) to be Christians and I believe the RCC to be just as christian as any other denomination. I believe what often happens is their positions are often misrepresented as I've shown you how you've misrepresented their position. You throw the baby out with the bath water. There is somethings which they can offer which protestant churches I know have lacking such as spiritual disciplines. Teaching of suffering as Paul speaks of it and looked forward to it so that he could partake in the sufferings of Christ. rather than name it and claim it view of doctrine.
I enlighten people by showing them scripture and let the holy spirit work. You accuse criticize and abuse. And Lori can tell you that I've called her and the Catholic church on a few things. I even tried to get a thread going just for that purpose but it turned into a false accusation thread stating things that catholics don't believe and I got nowhere.

You cannot possibly believe that RCC is a Christian church unless you don't believe yourself to be a Christian? Their gospel includes their church with only exceptions to those ignorant or unable. YOU are neither ignorant of what they teach and you are ABLE to do what they teach. So which is it? Are you a lost person or do they teach a false gospel because you are not obeying their gospel!

You cannot possibly believe they can be a "Christian" church if they preach an "accursed gospel." You know what they believe in regard to justificaition and regeneration in regard to baptism! Don't give me that stupid RCC run around about their technicalities of escaping this NORM of baptismal regeneration/justification. If that is what you believe then you are not a Christian and never will be one as long as you embrace that nonsense. So which is it? Are you a christian or do they preach "another gospel" and are accursed (Gal. 1:8-9). You can't have it both ways.