Roman Catholic Mass at Calvin's Church in Geneva!

[Reformed1689]

Basically it comes down to for me, if the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, then you aren’t receiving Communion. So a total waste of time otherwise. I’d be better off reserving Sunday’s for water sports or the drag races, and perhaps monster trucks.

If the bread and wine remain what they are, to me they are like empty husks in a far off sty.
Bread and wine do not give life, but Jesus Body and Blood does give life.

This is Jesus own words

“ He who eats my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. “

From this we learn that, Jesus flesh is real food and his blood is real drink, and that we are to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

We know this is Covenant Communion exchange of Persons, because he also says.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him.”

So as with the offering of loaves and fish to Jesus to feed a multitude, by this simple offering of bread and wine, it is transformed into Body and Blood of Christ so that all called to this feast down the ages could receive Jesus Himself personally in Covenant Communion.

Jesus established this simple Eucharistic feast so that we could receive Him in Covenant Communion through all time. That’s the amazing unfathomable Love He has for us.

So you want to be a cannibal?

 

[Reformed1689]

All that transubstantiation means is that it’s Jesus fully present, in His humanity and Divinity. Do you at least believe that Jesus is somehow spiritually present in Communion? Or is it not Communion in your belief?

Don’t you believe Jesus has the power to make Himself fully present in the Eucharist?

Jesus has the power, trust me.

But what goes beyond our understanding is the great Love Jesus has to come to us in this humble way, so as to have Covenant Communion with us down to this time.
Jesus sustains us with His very self.

I think most Protestants do believe that Jesus has the power to make Himself fully present in Communion. I don’t think that’s the issue.

Perhaps it’s the incredible Love and humility that’s in this Covenant feast that people find hard to accept, don’t know? It goes well beyond human understanding, only Faith can carry a man over, human reasoning hits a brick wall.

I can only trust Jesus words, I only believe it because Jesus said it. If Jesus didn’t say it, I wouldn’t believe it.

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

“ Take this all of you and eat it, this is my Body.”

“ Take this all of you and drink of it, this the Cup of my Blood. The blood of the new and everlasting Covenant”

Jesus didn’t require the Apostles to understand, He required them to believe.

It would utterly destroy my faith if I thought that Jesus was lying here, I would be down at monster trucks on Sunday to get my sunburn and hangover with every other pagan drongo.

But as it is, I have gone all in on Jesus words, only He has the words of Everlasting Life.

Or the fact that it just isn't found in Scripture...

 

[Marooncat79]

Jesus said that His flesh is real food and blood real drink, not symbolic food and symbolic drink.

Jesus didn’t say “ This means my body “ He said “ This is my Body “

No words of Christ can come back unfulfilled, He is The Truth Incarnate, there is no lie in Him.

What Jesus says, IS. Jesus is reality.

Jesus said “ My Flesh is real food and my blood real drink “ and people are saying “ no it isn’t “. Why are people trying to convince me Jesus is wrong?

A far as I’m concerned I believe Jesus has Infinite Power and Infinite Intelligence, so if those are the actual words He used, that is reality, that is Truth.

Again

is Jesus a vine? He said that He was

is He a door? He said that He was

Jesus used figures of Speech in order to help us understand who He is

 

[Campion]

So you want to be a cannibal?

As opposed to a symbolic cannibal?

If you believe he instructed his followers to eat something that symbolizes a body, then you are advocating symbolic cannibalism.

 

[Cathode]

So you want to be a cannibal?

As Adam ate the fruit of the tree in Eden and died, we must eat of the fruit of the tree on Calvary which is Christ in Covenant and Life.

They believed the words of the serpent and ate, we believe the words of Christ and eat. The remedy comes to us also by believing first, then eating.
But first you must believe, put on the garment of Faith.
Adam and Eve found themselves naked, now the garment of Faith in Jesus words are required to eat and enter life.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal Life and I will raise him up on the last day “

When we eat Jesus flesh and drink his blood we abide in Him and He in us in Covenant Communion.

 

[37818]

Jesus says it flat out “ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

Metaphor or actual physical flesh and blood? If metaphor can be shown, that it is metaphor then it is not the physical. Well?

 

[37818]

People aren’t believething if they don’t believe Jesus words.

All of them or just the ones one wants to hear?

 

[Cathode]

All of them or just the ones one wants to hear?

I could ask the same thing?

Do you believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink?

Not symbolic food and symbolic drink, real food, real drink, as Jesus plainly said it.

 

[Cathode]

We can not pass through the singularity of Faith by human understanding, this singularity can only be passed through by little children of Faith. They do not believe because they understand by human reasoning, they believe because Jesus said it. That is enough for them, as they effortlessly walk through.
If we only believe what we understand then what need is there of Faith.

It is precisely when we do not understand that Faith carries us across.

The way is narrow such that it confounds human reasoning, only by total Faith in Jesus words is the path to be found.

 

[Marooncat79]

If you were literally eating the flesh of Christ then wouldn’t it have all been eaten before now? And all of His blood drank by now?

there have been millions who have eaten and drank by this time

there should be none left at this point- yes?

 

[Cathode]

If you were literally eating the flesh of Christ then wouldn’t it have all been eaten before now? And all of His blood drank by now?

there have been millions who have eaten and drank by this time

there should be none left at this point- yes?

Was there not a handful of loaves and fish? Was there not 12 baskets left over?

Do you believe in Jesus power?

 

[Cathode]

The way of Faith is a joyful way, we just let our Love for Jesus feed our Trust in His words. We don’t need to understand everything we just know Jesus is the Truth and believe Him completely.

We stand on His Word, His promises go before us and anticipates all our needs.

 

[Walter]

If you were literally eating the flesh of Christ then wouldn’t it have all been eaten before now? And all of His blood drank by now?

there have been millions who have eaten and drank by this time

there should be none left at this point- yes?

How big is your God?? He provided abundant manna for all. He provided bread & fishes to feed multitudes. It is so very hard to make this language metaphorical, only it is not constructed in metaphorical language.
Merely Figurative?
You say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. You quote John 6:35: “Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’” They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, “The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense” (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.

Fundamentalist writers who comment on John 6 also assert that one can show Christ was speaking only metaphorically by comparing verses like John 10:9 (“I am the door”) and John 15:1 (“I am the true vine”). The problem is that there is not a connection to John 6:35, “I am the bread of life.” “I am the door” and “I am the vine” make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (John 6:55).

He continues: “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.

Their Main Argument
For Fundamentalist writers, the scriptural argument is capped by an appeal to John 6:63: “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” They say this means that eating real flesh is a waste. But does this make sense?

Are we to understand that Christ had just commanded his disciples to eat his flesh, then said their doing so would be pointless? Is that what “the flesh is of no avail” means? “Eat my flesh, but you’ll find it’s a waste of time”—is that what he was saying? Hardly.

The fact is that Christ’s flesh avails much! If it profits us nothing, so that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ are of no avail, then “your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished” (1 Cor. 15:17b–18).

In John 6:63 “flesh profits nothing” refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: “You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.” So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true.

Also in John 6:63, “The words I have spoken to you are spirit” does not mean “What I have just said is symbolic.” The word “spirit” is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).

Paul Confirms This
Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them. Paul also said, “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). “To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.

 

[Marooncat79]

Hebrews says Christ lives forever at the right hand of the Father making intercession

how can He be in heaven and in the mass

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the basic church congregations as seven...

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations - The seven churches - Revelations 1:20
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

So I believe the church congregations as seven and Christ walks in the midst of all of us. This forms one church, but there are many differences among us...

Messianic - The original church
Martyr - Oriental church beginning with Paul
Pergamos - Orthodox church beginning at Constantinople
Thyatira - Catholic church beginning at Rome
Sardis - Protestant church beginning in Germany
Philadelphia - Revived church beginning in England
Laodicean - Materialistic church beginning in America

So I have no problem with activities of other congregations such as these. My congregation is Pentecostal Holiness, which I believe of Philadelphian congregation. Our main issue is this...

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out... - Revelation 3:12

No more go out... We could not keep a good Spirit of revival going.

 

[37818]

I could ask the same thing?

What I said included any one who does that.

Do you believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink?

As Jesus had explained His meaning.
John 6:35, ". . . I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . ."

John 6:51, ". . . I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. . . ."

John 6:52-55, "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. . . ." Jesus is speaking of being the bread of life from Heaven. Jesus explains to His disciples. John 6:63, ". . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. . . ." These are excerpts of a larger discourse of Him being the true bread. John 6:47-48, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. . . ."
So by coming to Jesus to believe in Him I have eaten His flesh and drank His blood to Have eternal life for of which I will never hunger for or thirst for. See how John explains it, 1 John 5:12-13.

 

[Cathode]

Jesus said that the bread ( symbol ) that He would give is His flesh for the Life of the world.
It is not enough that the Paschal Lamb be sacrificed, it must also be eaten.

Jesus is pure Life, His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink.

“ poured out for you and for many “

Jesus flesh and blood gives life to our flesh and blood.

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you “

We believe in the Sacrifice, then we eat the flesh and drink the blood of that Sacrifice.

The Sacrifice was made so that you could eat and drink of it and receive Life.

 

[37818]

Jesus said that the bread ( symbol ) that He would give is His flesh for the Life of the world.
It is not enough that the Paschal Lamb be sacrificed, it must also be eaten.

Jesus is pure Life, His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink.

“ poured out for you and for many “

Jesus flesh and blood gives life to our flesh and blood.

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you “

We believe in the Sacrifice, then we eat the flesh and drink the blood of that Sacrifice.

The Sacrifice was made so that you could eat and drink of it and receive Life.

You confused two different contexts. One where Jesus being the bread of life where coming and believing on Him one will never hunger and thirst for eternal life with a remeberance which is to be done over and over again by which one never obtains that eternal life.

 

[Walter]

Hebrews says Christ lives forever at the right hand of the Father making intercession

how can He be in heaven and in the mass

How can He be present with us when 2 or 3 are gathered together. How big is you God?

 

[Cathode]

You confused two different contexts. One where Jesus being the bread of life where coming and believing on Him one will never hunger and thirst for eternal life with a remeberance which is to be done over and over again by which one never obtains that eternal life.

But people don’t believe, many walked away and no longer followed him. Precisely when Jesus tells them His flesh is real food and blood real drink.

This is the moment where the test of Faith comes, it is even being played out today.

All of scripture works towards and points to receiving Jesus Himself in Covenant Communion.

“ You search the scriptures thinking that in them you will find life, scripture bears witness to me, yet you refuse to come to me that you might live “

So not believing Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink, they do not come to the feast.
Their place at the feast is given to others.

“The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren't worthy. Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.' Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn't have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?' He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.' For many are called, but few chosen."

The wedding garment is Faith in Jesus Words.

Judas attended the feast and ate and drank his destruction, cast into the outer darkness after the Last Supper.

“Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. ”

Those still in human reasoning see cannibalism, those of Faith see The Wedding Covenant between Christ and His bride the Church.

There are no sneerers at the wedding feast of the Lamb.

This is the test of Faith that gives you the wedding Garment.

Believe Jesus words.

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him”

“ Take this all of you and eat it, this is my Body “

“ Take this all of you and drink from it, this is the Cup of my Blood, the blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant “.

It is better not to attend at all than attend and to be found without a garment, that one cast into the outer darkness is haunted by the anger in the Face of the King. His chief torment of crushing finality.

When at the Table of the Lord, do not call His food contemptible.