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Roman Catholicism and the total abuse & murder of children (incl. abortion).

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utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is not on OP topic and reported for not only being slanderous, but also purposefully misrepresentative of facts - Adventist Defense League

SoP/ToJ never says, 'man with beast'. You, again, have misrepresented because you purposefully chose not to seek the time to read the context, and desired to slander.

The context shows 'men with men' (mixing truth and error) and 'beast with beast', thus 'man and beast', not 'man with beast'. You do not seem to grasp the common language of English, of the words 'with' and 'and'.

Even the official response from the White Estate refuted this erroneous (and disgusting) claim a long time ago, but you (purposefully desiring evil) chose simply not to look, for fear of being wrong. - Ellen G. White® Estate: Comments Regarding Unusual Statements Found In Ellen G. White's Writings

Study Genesis 4-9 and you will see, especially in chapter 4 (multiple wives, murder, etc) & 6 ('sons of God' and 'daughters of men') what sister White is speaking of:

"... For some time the two classes remained separate. The race of Cain, spreading from the place of their first settlement, dispersed over the plains and valleys where the children of Seth had dwelt; and the latter, in order to escape from their contaminating influence, withdrew to the mountains, and there made their home. So long as this separation continued, they maintained the worship of God in its purity. But in the lapse of time they ventured, little by little, to mingle with the inhabitants of the valleys. This association was productive of the worst results. "The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair." The children of Seth, attracted by the beauty of the daughters of Cain's descendants, displeased the Lord by intermarrying with them. Many of the worshipers of God were beguiled into sin by the allurements that were now constantly before them, and they lost their peculiar, holy character. Mingling with the depraved, they became like them in spirit and in deeds; the restrictions of the seventh commandment were disregarded, "and they took them wives of all which they chose." The children of Seth went[ 82] "in the way of Cain" (Jude 11); they fixed their minds upon worldly prosperity and enjoyment and neglected the commandments of the Lord. Men "did not like to retain God in their knowledge;" they "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Romans 1:21. Therefore "God gave them over to a mind void of judgment." Verse 28, margin. Sin spread abroad in the earth like a deadly leprosy. {PP 81.2} ..." - Patriarchs and Prophets, page 81.2

"... Polygamy had been early introduced, contrary to the divine arrangement at the beginning. The Lord gave to Adam one wife, [92] showing His order in that respect. But after the Fall, men chose to follow their own sinful desires; and as the result, crime and wretchedness rapidly increased. Neither the marriage relation nor the rights of property were respected. Whoever coveted the wives or the possessions of his neighbor, took them by force, and men exulted in their deeds of violence. They delighted in destroying the life of animals; and the use of flesh for food rendered them still more cruel and bloodthirsty, until they came to regard human life with astonishing indifference. {PP 91.3} ..." - Patriarchs and Prophets, page 91.3

Not only were persons practicing polygamy, murder, beastiality, and all other manner of idolatry and sin, mankind, even those claiming to serve God, followed not the counsel of God, and married anyone they chose, including those who were not spiritually minded, the 'daughters of men' and brought about corruption, as may be seen over and over again in the Bible:

See the following for comparison with the Genesis 6:2,4 account:

See Abraham and Isaac in Genesis 24:3,37.
See Esau and Jacob in Genesis 26:34,35, 28:8,9 [comparing to Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6], 36:2.
See Isaac and Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6
See Jacob and Hamor in Genesis 34:9,14
See Moses in Exodus 34:15,16
See in Deuteronomy 17:17
See Balaam in Numbers 25:1,2,3
See in Judges 3:5,6,7
See Samson the Judge in Judges 14:1,2,3
See the Chronicles in 1 Chronicles 5:24,25
See Ezra in Ezra 9:1,2,11,12
See Nehemiah in Nehemiah 9:2, 10:28,29,30, 13:23,25,26,27
See Solomon in 1 Kings 11:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

Many “Sons of God” “looked”/“saw” [“saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” and “took them wives of all which they chose” [Genesis 6:2]] and "beheld" [Just as did Samson, “she pleaseth me well”, or King David who went after Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite and his friend, through covetousness had Uriah killed in action “from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman [was] very beautiful to look upon” [2 Samuel 11:2, 12:9] and Solomon who “multiplied wives” and “loved many strange women” and all Israel who took of the “daughters of the land”], and then “lusted and coveted” and so were ensnared being “Vex[ed], Beguiled, To Commit Trespass Against The LORD, Commit Fornication, Eat things sacrificed unto Idols, worshipped idols” [Numbers 25:18, 31:16; Revelation 2:14]:

Jude 1:11 KJB - Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

See also the words of Jesus, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot:

Job 21:7,14, 22:15,16,17; Matthew 24:37,38; Luke 17:26,27; 2 Peter 2:5, 3:3,6.

In the greater overall picture there is a like message and call for the “people of God” also today to “come out” of “Spiritual Babylon” [just as God had done with physical Babylon; Jeremiah 51:9; Isaiah 52:11] that “great Whore” [Revelation 17:1, 19:2]:

See 2 Corinthians 6:14,15,16,17,18; Revelation 18:4

There were also breeding among animals (as is today) that breed weak and confused animals (chihuahua, etc) and also terrifying mutations. Mankind abused their knowledge and sought to bring out in the animal the corruption of their original traits, turning desire into bloodlust, turning hunger into killers, etc.

If you even bothered to read even the Jewish sources, they admit these things also, including sodomy as one of the very things that brought the flood, for even Jesus said as much, as it was in the days of Lot, days of Noe, etc.

But you do not care about truth, do you utilyan, only what you can do to justify yourself, and the evil ways thereof.

"But you do not care about truth, do you utilyan, only what you can do to justify yourself, and the evil ways thereof."

And I think you are a good person with a good heart. I am Evil and you are Good.

So now that we got the sides cleared up. I think impatience and accusation ought to be my weapons.

I'm going to be watching for your proper weapons and the armor of God.

Galatians 6
1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.


2 timothy 2

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Ephesians 4

2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,


Colossians 3

12So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.14Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.


Obviously you are the first saint I ever met and I am but a tiny minion of the forces of evil

Can you teach me the meaning of meekness? I don't know what this word means.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lets use your logic here.

From the Official SDA website.

"The Adventist Christian community is not immune from child sexual abuse."

Child Sexual Abuse





"A woman sued the Seventh-day Adventist Church on Friday for allegedly removing a man accused of sexually abusing children from his role as a teacher only to position him as the pastor of one of the largest Adventist congregations in Portland."

Woman Sues Portland-Area Seventh-Day Adventist Church For Ignoring Sexual Abuse Allegations Against Teacher and Pastor



===
A 23-year-old Fifth Grade teacher in an Adventist elementary school in St. George’s, Grenada, was arrested during the last week of July and charged with murder. According to the Jamaica Observer, the remains of a 19-year-old young woman were found in a refuse container along with a weapon and personal belongings. An autopsy showed that the woman died from strangulation and bleeding. To date, there is no report of how the young teacher pled in court.

Last week a 46-year-old man in Berrien County, Michigan, was sentenced to 15 years in prison after he pled guilty to sex crimes against a nine-year-old girl which occurred at the Niles Westside Seventh-day Adventist Church. He was also convicted of failing to register for prior convictions of criminal sexual misconduct. The prosecuting attorney was quoted by the South Bend Tribune, “He’s done this before. He said that he couldn’t control himself with children.” There was no comment about why he was allowed to have contact with children at the church.

On July 29 The Times of India reported that a female teacher at the Adventist school in Virudhunagar allegedly hit a seven-year-old girl with a wooden ruler causing injuries that made it difficult for the girl to walk home. “Police sources said they had filed a complaint under section 323” of India’s criminal law and “section 23 of the Juvenile Justice (Care and Protection of Children) Act of 2000.” An unnamed police official is quoted as stating that the teacher had “accepted that she caned the girl.”

On August 20 the tabloid London Daily Mail and the South Africa Press Association (SAPA) wire service both reported that Elder Steyn Venter, pastor of the Adventist church in Bloemfontein, South Africa, had been fired for “improper advice” in marriage counseling. The newspapers reported that he had encouraged young couples to engage in public nudity and kept photographs in which at least one couple appeared naked. Elder B. M. P. Ngwenya, president of the KwaZulu-Natal and Free State Conference, told the Die Volksbladnewspaper that the pastor had been fired.


Abuse is a Challenge for the Adventist Church; New Campaign is Launched to Counter It | Adventist Today

===
===

Worse, court documents filed last week say, a “culture of silence and secrecy” covered up years of physical and sexual abuse.

Two former students of the shuttered school are suing, claiming staff members handcuffed them to beds, raped and beat them. School administrators knew about the abuse at the school, the lawsuit claims, but covered up the criminal acts to keep the school open, with tuition reportedly at $2,000 a month per student.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...it-says/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bca625a69a4a

===



Wow Adventists rape and murder people. And the stories just go on and on. ERGO Alofa Atu's Logic the SDA teach rape and murder people.

How about this NON-Christian telling me clearly all of Christianity is a utter failure and only teaches evil, So we should all leave the whole thing?

Or could it be there are sinners everywhere? even in "atheist" institutions there is rape and murder.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
This SDA youngster ...
Exactly. I am in dialogue with him even now. He is missing a few things.

He (Andrew) said, and I directly quote his email to me (only a few hours old):

"... I live in Manila, Philippines and I currently attend the SDA church at the hospital here. Adventists here do not support abortion at all ..."

Looks like its not as bad as you're claiming Walter. He also continued to state in the same email:

"... Catholics (and evangelicals?) believe that at conception the unborn is given an immortal soul. I believe this is contrary to the Bible and I will explore this in a future video. ..."

Though he is slightly in error in several points about the Seventh-day Adventist 'remnant', he did state this:

".. I'm not aware of any other official doctrine of the SDA church that is not biblical. I hope that helps,
Andrew ..."


I have his email if you need that, or you can find it online and verify with him.

I am currently in the process of asking him about the following material in this thread, which he seems totally ignorant of.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
"A woman sued the Seventh-day Adventist Church on Friday for allegedly removing a man accused of sexually abusing children from his role as a teacher only to position him as the pastor of one of the largest Adventist congregations in Portland."
I know all about it, and they all should go to jail and names stripped from the books, cast out as an offense to Jesus Christ and no christian. Keep pointing out the Judas' though. Simply taking the name Seventh-day Adventist doesn't make one so. Isaiah 8:20.
 
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Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Lets use your logic here.

...

Wow Adventists rape and murder people. And the stories just go on and on. ERGO Alofa Atu's Logic the SDA teach rape and murder people. ....
No, people claiming to be Seventh-day Adventist do those things. Simply taking the name does not make one so, and does not make the doctrine of scripture (which the remnant holds to) teach it or sanction it.

However, Roman Catholicism's official doctrine does sanction murder:

"Summa Theologica: Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated? ..."

"… I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. ..."

"...On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. ..."

"...Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command ..."

"...For this reason the Church not only admits to Penance those who return from heresy for the first time, but also safeguards their lives, and sometimes by dispensation, restores them to the ecclesiastical dignities which they may have had before, should their conversion appear to be sincere: we read of this as having frequently been done for the good of peace. But when they fall again, after having been received, this seems to prove them to be inconstant in faith, wherefore when they return again, they are admitted to Penance, but are not delivered from the pain of death. ..."

"...Reply to Objection 1. In God's tribunal, those who return are always received, because God is a searcher of hearts, and knows those who return in sincerity. But the Church cannot imitate God in this, for she presumes that those who relapse after being once received, are not sincere in their return; hence she does not debar them from the way of salvation, but neither does she protect them from the sentence of death. …" [Summa Theologica The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat.
F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Heresy (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 11)

It's all over official Roman Catholic doctrine, in Canon Law, to Catechism, to pope's own mouth, council of Trent, etc.

You will find no such thing in the Seventh-day Adventist official doctrine (Isaiah 8:20). We do not believe in Augustine's misuse of the 'two swords'.

Peter was rebuked by Jesus Christ.

So, when finding thieves (like Judas) among the Apostles, does not make Jesus accomplice, nor His doctrine accomplice, but the difference between this and Roman Catholicism's doctrine is clear, they do sanction the death to persons, adult or not. And if you want to get into the sexual aspect we can, and what Romanism teaches there also.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, people claiming to be Seventh-day Adventist do those things. Simply taking the name does not make one so, and does not make the doctrine of scripture (which the remnant holds to) teach it or sanction it.

However, Roman Catholicism's official doctrine does sanction murder:

"Summa Theologica: Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated? ..."

"… I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. ..."

"...On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. ..."

"...Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command ..."

"...For this reason the Church not only admits to Penance those who return from heresy for the first time, but also safeguards their lives, and sometimes by dispensation, restores them to the ecclesiastical dignities which they may have had before, should their conversion appear to be sincere: we read of this as having frequently been done for the good of peace. But when they fall again, after having been received, this seems to prove them to be inconstant in faith, wherefore when they return again, they are admitted to Penance, but are not delivered from the pain of death. ..."

"...Reply to Objection 1. In God's tribunal, those who return are always received, because God is a searcher of hearts, and knows those who return in sincerity. But the Church cannot imitate God in this, for she presumes that those who relapse after being once received, are not sincere in their return; hence she does not debar them from the way of salvation, but neither does she protect them from the sentence of death. …" [Summa Theologica The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat.
F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Heresy (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 11)

It's all over official Roman Catholic doctrine, in Canon Law, to Catechism, to pope's own mouth, council of Trent, etc.

You will find no such thing in the Seventh-day Adventist official doctrine (Isaiah 8:20). We do not believe in Augustine's misuse of the 'two swords'.

Peter was rebuked by Jesus Christ.

So, when finding thieves (like Judas) among the Apostles, does not make Jesus accomplice, nor His doctrine accomplice, but the difference between this and Roman Catholicism's doctrine is clear, they do sanction the death to persons, adult or not. And if you want to get into the sexual aspect we can, and what Romanism teaches there also.

"to Catechism"


Show the catechism then. We are not allowed to murder anyone. You can quote a thousand popes saying lets kill everyone, that is not catholic teaching. Point to the catechism.


"You will find no such thing in the Seventh-day Adventist official doctrine"

I showed you the link to the official website giving the OKAY to abortion.

Abortion
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I know all about it, and they all should go to jail and names stripped from the books, cast out as an offense to Jesus Christ and no christian. Keep pointing out the Judas' though. Simply taking the name Seventh-day Adventist doesn't make one so. Isaiah 8:20.

"I know all about it, and they all should go to jail and names stripped from the books, cast out as an offense to Jesus Christ and no christian."

They should go to jail. But say they are no longer christian, That is not your judgement. Paul was a murderer of Christians too.


"Simply taking the name Seventh-day Adventist doesn't make one so"

Well if being called Catholic makes one a genuine Catholic, you don't see a double standard?

Sorry brother, your gotta to eat your own slop now.

Or you can simply admit there are good and evil in every faith and philosophy.



From the official SDA WEBSITE:

To blame past violations of Christian principles on one specific denomination is not an accurate representation of either history or the concerns of Bible prophecy. We recognize that at times Protestants, including Seventh-day Adventists, have manifested prejudice and even bigotry. If, in expounding on what the Bible teaches, Seventh-day Adventists fail to express love to those addressed, we do not exhibit authentic Christianity.

How Seventh-day Adventists View Roman Catholicism



Alfofa Atu are you exhibiting authentic Christianity?

Tell us about your person view of ORIGINAL SIN and how we ought to inherit the guilt of past Catholics.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let's see if those posting in this thread, as 'site supporters' are able to buy their way out of this, as they of old tried to do.

1Ti_6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Psa 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

Psa 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Let's see if leadership will continue to accept blood money, for the price of the innocent.

Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

Jas 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Jas 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

Jas 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

Jas 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

"... behold, the judge standeth before the door."

"Let's see if those posting in this thread, as 'site supporters' are able to buy their way out of this, as they of old tried to do."

LOL.

I'm broke. I live with Mom and Dad. I have never given a dime.

I think it means we just been around.

"They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;"

We should show each other our wallets and who ever has most gives the other half his money.


Man if I were rich.......I probably wouldn't be here Lord knows i'd probably be fishing, travelling, or even in a bar, or smoking weed and playing a guitar.

:::Cue the sad violin music::: I would go watch the avengers movie but i will have to wait for my sister to get it on their netflix or something.

Remember not everyone here is catholic. SDA got baptist roots.

The very first SDA person learned Christianity from a BAPTIST. This is a absolute fact.


You wouldn't go to a Nazi to learn what Jews teach. I would hope you would go to Jews.

And I wouldn't go to Jews to learn what Muslim teach.

I wouldn't go to Armenians to know what Calvinist teach.

I certainly would not go to SDA to learn what Catholics teach.

You automatically assume we are evil and rich.

Is there any way you can depend on GOD ALONE and not ACCUSATION the virtue of the ACCUSER?
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
You will find no such thing in the Seventh-day Adventist official doctrine"

I showed you the link to the official website giving the OKAY to abortion.

Abortion
You think a website is official Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? You have a gross misunderstanding of real Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. The authority for a Seventh-day Adventist is not a website, nor even Ted Wilson (even sister White did not desire 'presidencies' and there was a year in which they attempted to do away with it, not that Ted Wilson knows this), or any of that nature. It is Isaiah 8:20.

I even cited James White for you, but, you do not seem to grasp the concept of the difference between remnant and corporation.

"... The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a [205] wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1} ..." - 1 Selected Messages 204.2 - 205.1

The Seventh-day Adventist movement doesn't get its orders from those places you cited. Our marching orders come directly from the Law and the Testimony (full stop).

You can point to goats all day long. Try looking at the sheep.
 
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Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
"to Catechism"

Show the catechism then. We are not allowed to murder anyone. You can quote a thousand popes saying lets kill everyone, that is not catholic teaching. Point to the catechism. ...
I cited Thomas Aquinas, the 'angelic doctor', 'sainted' of Romanism in his "Summa Theologica", which is current practice to this day. It has the ongoing Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and highest markings of authority outside of a papal 'bull'.

Let's start with a definition then, ready?

[CCC] " … 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT; I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"; Ending Notation 11, refers to Canon 751 of Roman Catholic Canon Law] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

Do you agree with this, yes or no?

Then we can get into what Romanism says about such persons and what to do with them.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I cited Thomas Aquinas, the 'angelic doctor', 'sainted' of Romanism in his "Summa Theologica", which is current practice to this day. It has the ongoing Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and highest markings of authority outside of a papal 'bull'.

Let's start with a definition then, ready?

[CCC] " … 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT; I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"; Ending Notation 11, refers to Canon 751 of Roman Catholic Canon Law] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

Do you agree with this, yes or no?

Then we can get into what Romanism says about such persons and what to do with them.

Catechism is just fine. I suggest reading through entirety on the section of Moral Conscience a person's responsibility to follow it even when it comes to religion.

Because the Heresy is only if you are in denial of actual truth perceived so as actual truth. Whereas if you perceive it false and follow your conscience against it we consider it listening to the voice of God, honorable even when wrong by ignorance.


1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61


Breaking any of these rules is against Catholic teaching.

"He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53

He must obey his God given coinscience.



the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him.

This is why you are not going to hear me call you evil or insult you. I know you are a good person doing the best with what he has.

I believe there is enough good teaching in the SDA to break you from the stance of accusation and imputing the guilt of others on me.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You think a website is official Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? You have a gross misunderstanding of real Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. The authority for a Seventh-day Adventist is not a website, nor even Ted Wilson (even sister White did not desire 'presidencies' and there was a year in which they attempted to do away with it, not that Ted Wilson knows this), or any of that nature. It is Isaiah 8:20.

I even cited James White for you, but, you do not seem to grasp the concept of the difference between remnant and corporation.

"... The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a [205] wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1} ..." - 1 Selected Messages 204.2 - 205.1

The Seventh-day Adventist movement doesn't get its orders from those places you cited. Our marching orders come directly from the Law and the Testimony (full stop).

You can point to goats all day long. Try looking at the sheep.

“When the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon earth, is exercised, private judgment must not be maintained, but surrendered.” (Testimonies for the Church, Volume 3, p 492) --Ellen G White.

Your Holy Prophetess who's words are the word of GOD commands that the general conference is the highest authority on earth.

Of course she changed her mind couple times when disappointed but in the end:

"When in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." 9T, p. 260. -- ELLEN G WHITE. 1909


"Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles."
You mean the bible of the Anglican's?

As I pointed out you are incorrect. DO you reject the holy words of your prophetess?



============
Seventh Day Adventist Church Manual, Chapter 3 page 29:

General Conference the Highest Authority

In the Church today the General Conference Session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between Sessions, is the highest ecclesiastical authority in the administration of the Church. The General Conference Executive Committee is authorized by its Constitution to create subordinate organizations with authority to carry out their roles. Therefore all subordinate organizations and institutions throughout the Church will recognize the General Conference Session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between Sessions, as the highest ecclesiastical authority, under God, among Seventh-day Adventists. When differences arise in or between churches and confer

===========

If that is not your church say so.

According to Ellen G White and the SDA CHURCH, The General Conference is THE HIGHEST authority.


Tell me am I unreasonable for considering the words of your prophet and her church?
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
“When the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon earth, is exercised, private judgment must not be maintained, but surrendered.” (Testimonies for the Church, Volume 3, p 492) --Ellen G White.

Your Holy Prophetess who's words are the word of GOD commands that the general conference is the highest authority on earth.

Of course she changed her mind couple times when disappointed but in the end:

"When in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." 9T, p. 260. -- ELLEN G WHITE. 1909


"Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles."
You mean the bible of the Anglican's?

As I pointed out you are incorrect. DO you reject the holy words of your prophetess?



============
Seventh Day Adventist Church Manual, Chapter 3 page 29:

General Conference the Highest Authority

In the Church today the General Conference Session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between Sessions, is the highest ecclesiastical authority in the administration of the Church. The General Conference Executive Committee is authorized by its Constitution to create subordinate organizations with authority to carry out their roles. Therefore all subordinate organizations and institutions throughout the Church will recognize the General Conference Session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between Sessions, as the highest ecclesiastical authority, under God, among Seventh-day Adventists. When differences arise in or between churches and confer

===========

If that is not your church say so.

According to Ellen G White and the SDA CHURCH, The General Conference is THE HIGHEST authority.


Tell me am I unreasonable for considering the words of your prophet and her church?
First of all, the 'church manual' is the Bible, not the 'book' you cited called 'church manual'.

Yet to the original quotation, I do pray you read the whole thing:

"...I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body. {9T 260.1}

At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise [261] plans and to restrict God's work, I have said that I could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work. {9T 260.2}

When this power, which God has placed in the church, is accredited wholly to one man, and he is invested with the authority to be judgment for other minds, then the true Bible order is changed. Satan's efforts upon such a man's mind would be most subtle and sometimes well-nigh overpowering, for the enemy would hope that through his mind he could affect many others. Let us give to the highest organized authority in the church that which we are prone to give to one man or to a small group of men. ..."

You just negated your entire premise by citing that portion. There are only a few men (compared to the body) that are going against (in various areas, this or that) the body of the Seventh-day Adventist movement.

"... The world's Redeemer has invested His church with great power. He states the rules to be carried in cases of trial with its members. After He has given explicit directions as to the course to be pursued, He says, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever (in church discipline) ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 8:18). Thus the highest authority, even the heavenly, ratifies the discipline of the church in regard to its members when the Bible rule has been followed. {15MR 130.1}

The word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinions against the opinions of the church. Unless there was church discipline and church governments, the church would go to fragments. They could not hold together as a body. . . . {15MR 130.2} ..." - 15MR (No. 1158), pages 130.1-130.2

"... "The angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life." We see here that the men in authority [1546] are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of Bible doctrines...." - 1888 Materials, page 1545.1

"... Christ rebuked these practices in His day. He taught that the word of God was to be understood by all. He pointed to the Scriptures as of unquestionable authority, and we should do the same. The Bible is to be presented as the word of the infinite God, as [40] the end of all controversy and the foundation of all faith. {COL 39.1} ..." - Christ Object Lessons, page 39.1

You also just countered 'popery' in one fell swoop. Nice job.

The same is seen in Acts 15, the council held in Jerusalem. The body met together, based upon 3 things, Peter's experience and vision, Paul and Barnabas testimony which was in agreement, and rooted in the Bible itself as James cites. Letters were then directed to all the churches, that each may read the decision of the appointed council and were sent with witnesses, and confirmed by prophets (thus by the Holy Ghost Himself).

No, she didn't just place men above scripture. The context is God's men in subjection to the scripture in full council as opposed to satanic idea of the private interpretation of one man, or few men (ie Roman Catholicism).

"... A familiar acquaintance with the Scriptures sharpens the discerning powers, and fortifies the soul against the attacks of Satan. The Bible is the sword of the Spirit, which will never fail to vanquish the adversary. It is the only true guide in all matters of faith and practice. ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 4, 1881, par. 27

"... The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the rule of faith and practice. ..." - 1888 Materials, page 1532.2

"... The Bible is our Counselor, and is to be obeyed. ..." - 13MR (No. 1027), page 191.1

"... The truth of the Christian religion depends upon the divine authority of the word of God. ..." - Paulson Collection, page 110.7

"... We should not allow any argument of man's to turn us away from a thorough investigation of Bible truth. The opinions and customs of men are not to be received as of divine authority. God has revealed in his word what is the whole duty of man, and we are not to be swayed from the great standard of righteousness. He sent his only begotten Son to be our example, and bade us to hear and to follow him. We must not be influenced from the truth as it is in Jesus, because great and professedly good men urge their ideas above the plain statements of the word of God. {RH, July 17, 1888 par. 12} ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 17, 1888, par. 12

"... My cry has been, Investigate the Scriptures for yourselves, and know for yourselves what saith the Lord. No man is to be authority for us. If he has received his light from the Bible, so may we also go to the same source for light and proof to substantiate the doctrines which we believe. The Scriptures teach that we should give a reason of the hope that is within us with meekness and fear. . . . {9MR 217.2} ..." - 9MR (No. 731), page 217.2

"... Truth, Bible truth, is to become the authority for the conscience and the love and life of the soul. {10MR 315.4} ..." - 10MR (No. 829), page 315.4

"... The Word of God is your counselor; the Word of God is your authority. Be very careful how you bring anything weaker to take its place...." - 14MR (1109), page 186.1
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Canon Law on catholic women (transgendered too??? a female that choose to be identified as male (why not a Ford pickup truck, or ice cream cone, or a more nebulous idea such as choosing to be identified as free-as-a-bird) and became pregnant) getting an abortion, exceptions to penalty:

"...Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness). Thus a woman forced by an abusive husband to have an abortion would not incur an excommunication, for instance, whereas someone culpably under the influence of drugs or alcohol would (canon 1325). ..." - Link

Canon 1323:


Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:
"...

1/ a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;

2/ a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; error are equivalent to ignorance;

3/ a person who acted due to physical force or a chance person could not foreseen, avoid;

4/ a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

5/ a person who acted with due moderation against an unjust aggressor for the sake of legitimate self defense or defense of another;

6/ a person who lacked the use of reason, without prejudice to the prescripts of cann. 1324, §1, n. 2 and 1325;

7/ a person who without negligence thought that one of the circumstances mentioned in nn. 4 or 5 was present. ..." - Code of Canon Law - IntraText

Did you catch that about pedo's ... under age and no penalties ...

"... Pope Francis’ m.p. Vos estis ...

... 3. Sexual acts performed by clerics and/or religious with consenting adults, though sacrilegious by their very nature and often extremely disruptive to the faith community (think, adultery between a pastor and a member of the parish or a religious’ participation in ‘adult pornography’ rings), are still not criminalized. ..." - Thoughts on ‘Vos estis’
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Pew Research 2018:

".. .Catholics are somewhat more divided; 51% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases and 42% say it should be illegal. ..." - Public Opinion on Abortion

Pew Research 2019:

"... Among Catholic Republicans and GOP leaners, 55% say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, identical to the share among all Republicans. At the same time, 64% of Catholic Democrats and Democratic leaners say abortion should be legal in all or most cases — slightly lower than the share for Democrats overall (76%). On balance, however, Catholic Democrats are more likely to favor legal abortion than to oppose it. ..." - Like Americans overall, U.S. Catholics are sharply divided by party

"... in the Philippines where Catholics are so markedly in the majority and abortions are not legalized, one international authority in the Pro-Life and Natural Family Planning movement, Fr. Paul Marx, O.S.B., estimates that there are a million abortions a year. ..." - The Abortion Problem and the New Code of Canon Law on JSTOR
 
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