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Roman Catholicism and the total abuse & murder of children (incl. abortion).

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Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Catechism is just fine. ..

"He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53 ....
You do realize that 'not being forced' to recant (ie go against conscience), does not hinder them (who are torturing the obstinate heretic as a means to regain them through coersive means, and have them bound) from still putting the 'obstinate heretic' to death, don't you? The one (obstinate heretic, acting according to conscience and carrying it out) put to death wasn't forced to become a catholic were they?

See how 'subtil' (Gen 3:1) Romanism is ... sounds so sweet in the ear ...
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
First of all, the 'church manual' is the Bible, not the 'book' you cited called 'church manual'.

Yet to the original quotation, I do pray you read the whole thing:

"...I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body. {9T 260.1}

At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise [261] plans and to restrict God's work, I have said that I could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work. {9T 260.2}

When this power, which God has placed in the church, is accredited wholly to one man, and he is invested with the authority to be judgment for other minds, then the true Bible order is changed. Satan's efforts upon such a man's mind would be most subtle and sometimes well-nigh overpowering, for the enemy would hope that through his mind he could affect many others. Let us give to the highest organized authority in the church that which we are prone to give to one man or to a small group of men. ..."

You just negated your entire premise by citing that portion. There are only a few men (compared to the body) that are going against (in various areas, this or that) the body of the Seventh-day Adventist movement.

"... The world's Redeemer has invested His church with great power. He states the rules to be carried in cases of trial with its members. After He has given explicit directions as to the course to be pursued, He says, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever (in church discipline) ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 8:18). Thus the highest authority, even the heavenly, ratifies the discipline of the church in regard to its members when the Bible rule has been followed. {15MR 130.1}

The word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinions against the opinions of the church. Unless there was church discipline and church governments, the church would go to fragments. They could not hold together as a body. . . . {15MR 130.2} ..." - 15MR (No. 1158), pages 130.1-130.2

"... "The angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life." We see here that the men in authority [1546] are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of Bible doctrines...." - 1888 Materials, page 1545.1

"... Christ rebuked these practices in His day. He taught that the word of God was to be understood by all. He pointed to the Scriptures as of unquestionable authority, and we should do the same. The Bible is to be presented as the word of the infinite God, as [40] the end of all controversy and the foundation of all faith. {COL 39.1} ..." - Christ Object Lessons, page 39.1

You also just countered 'popery' in one fell swoop. Nice job.

The same is seen in Acts 15, the council held in Jerusalem. The body met together, based upon 3 things, Peter's experience and vision, Paul and Barnabas testimony which was in agreement, and rooted in the Bible itself as James cites. Letters were then directed to all the churches, that each may read the decision of the appointed council and were sent with witnesses, and confirmed by prophets (thus by the Holy Ghost Himself).

No, she didn't just place men above scripture. The context is God's men in subjection to the scripture in full council as opposed to satanic idea of the private interpretation of one man, or few men (ie Roman Catholicism).

"... A familiar acquaintance with the Scriptures sharpens the discerning powers, and fortifies the soul against the attacks of Satan. The Bible is the sword of the Spirit, which will never fail to vanquish the adversary. It is the only true guide in all matters of faith and practice. ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 4, 1881, par. 27

"... The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the rule of faith and practice. ..." - 1888 Materials, page 1532.2

"... The Bible is our Counselor, and is to be obeyed. ..." - 13MR (No. 1027), page 191.1

"... The truth of the Christian religion depends upon the divine authority of the word of God. ..." - Paulson Collection, page 110.7

"... We should not allow any argument of man's to turn us away from a thorough investigation of Bible truth. The opinions and customs of men are not to be received as of divine authority. God has revealed in his word what is the whole duty of man, and we are not to be swayed from the great standard of righteousness. He sent his only begotten Son to be our example, and bade us to hear and to follow him. We must not be influenced from the truth as it is in Jesus, because great and professedly good men urge their ideas above the plain statements of the word of God. {RH, July 17, 1888 par. 12} ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 17, 1888, par. 12

"... My cry has been, Investigate the Scriptures for yourselves, and know for yourselves what saith the Lord. No man is to be authority for us. If he has received his light from the Bible, so may we also go to the same source for light and proof to substantiate the doctrines which we believe. The Scriptures teach that we should give a reason of the hope that is within us with meekness and fear. . . . {9MR 217.2} ..." - 9MR (No. 731), page 217.2

"... Truth, Bible truth, is to become the authority for the conscience and the love and life of the soul. {10MR 315.4} ..." - 10MR (No. 829), page 315.4

"... The Word of God is your counselor; the Word of God is your authority. Be very careful how you bring anything weaker to take its place...." - 14MR (1109), page 186.1

Sorry 20 million SDA disagree with you.

Nope you skipped right over where she repeats herself: "God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority."

None of her warnings negate her statement.

Are you accusing the general conference of being ONE MAN?

Are you accusing the general conference of creating the church manual as a book of lies?

I can see us going back to square one, Can you name ONE LIVING PERSON who has a better understanding of Christianity than you?

If the authority rested on scriptures in acts 15 the Judiaisers who demanded circumcision would have won having no scriptural basis to overturn the law.


This is laughable you can't figure out the rules of your own faith , how do you overwrite our own?

to be continued....
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
===========
Organizational Structure | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

The Seventh-day Adventist® Church is organized with a representative form of church government. This means authority in the Church comes from the membership of local churches. Executive responsibility is given to representative bodies and officers to govern the Church. Four levels of Church structure lead from the individual believer to the worldwide Church organization:

The local church is made up of individual believers

The local conference, or local field/mission, is made up of a number of local churches in a state, province, or territory

The union conference, or union field/mission, is made up of conferences or fields within a larger territory (often a grouping of states or a whole country)

The General Conference, the most extensive unit of organization, is made up of all unions/entities in all parts of the world. Divisions are sections of the General Conference, with administrative responsibility for particular geographical areas.

Each level is "representative." That is, it reflects a democratic process of formation and election. Local churches elect their own officers and church boards by majority voting. Churches elect delegates to the conferences which meet "in session" every two or three years. Executive authority between sessions is exercised by the Conference Executive Committee and the executive officers (normally President, Secretary and Treasurer), all of whom are elected by the session.

A similar process operates for Union sessions usually every five years, and General Conference sessions, at which times officers and committees are elected, reports given and policies decided.

Within these four levels the Church operates various institutions. In their world outreach, Adventists serve the whole person and have developed educational, health-care, publishing, media (radio, print, television, web, satellite), and other institutions. The multiple units of the world Church, whether congregations, conferences, health-care institutions, publishing houses, schools, or other organizations, all find their organizational unity in the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in which they have representation.

The General Conference is the highest earthly authority for the Church. The General Conference in session, and the Executive Committee between sessions, is the highest organization in the administration of the Church's worldwide work, and is authorized by its constitution to create subordinate organizations to promote specific interests in various sections of the world. When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.

Administratively, the world-wide Church has 13 Divisions, which are composed of churches grouped by a collection of missions, fields, or states into unions of churches. The North American Division is one of the 13 Divisions. The Divisions, and headquarters are:
=========


Throw us a bone here, Give us the name on a single living person on the face of the earth who has better understanding of SDA faith than you.

How do we know you are not some solo fringe crazy person? Crazy self proclaim prophets are dime a dozen.

The scriptures warn again the unlearned and unstable.

Give us a trusted website of a trusted SDA.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
I cited Thomas Aquinas, the 'angelic doctor', 'sainted' of Romanism in his "Summa Theologica", which is current practice to this day. It has the ongoing Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and highest markings of authority outside of a papal 'bull'.

Let's start with a definition then, ready?

[CCC] " … 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT; I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"; Ending Notation 11, refers to Canon 751 of Roman Catholic Canon Law] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

Do you agree with this, yes or no?

Then we can get into what Romanism says about such persons and what to do with them.
Therefore, since utilyan decided to quote Canon Law on conscience, and we see from that quotation that it does not prevent death to the obstinate heretic in the least, let's see what Romanism teaches about obstinate heretics and those excommunicate:

"... C. XLVII. Non sunt homicidae qui adversus excommunicatos zelo matris ecclesiae armantur ..."

...They are not to be accounted murderers who, zealous for the mother church, have killed excommunicated persons. ...” [“The Decretum of Gratian Part 2 Case 23 Question 5 chapter 47-48”; Decreti Secunda Pars Causa XXIII. Quest. V. c. 47-49; [47,48 specifically; section 49 given in 'defense' of these actions/reasons]] –http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_6029936_001/pages/ldpd_6029936_001_00000531.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= AND http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_6029936_001/pages/ldpd_6029936_001_00000532.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left=

See? They do not count obstinate heretics as innocent, neither do they account it murder to put them to death, just as Thomas Aquinas said.

Now let's look at Morality a little more:

[CCC] " …

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

IV.
ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1792
Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Erroneous Judgment] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P62.HTM

[CCC] " …

II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Definition of Sin] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6A.HTM

The Roman Catholic Church just previously defined what being in "right conscience" was in regards to "moral conduct"... and it includes accepting her "authority and her teaching" and thus also "reason" for it is the 'Pope's will that stands for (in the place of) reason (*) thus (pope) has the 'right conscience').

To not accept, or to reject her "authority and her teaching" is then a blatant violation [according to this system] of "right conscience" in "moral conduct", being a "desire contrary to the eternal law" [to be seen in more depth further in], injuring "human solidarity" ["common good"] and therefore is "sin" as defined by the Roman Catholic theological position which defines all things regarding "faith and morals".

By that definition then, any and all persons who are then continually and knowingly ["obstinate ill will"] in an open state of "denial" and/or "rejection" of the "faith" [Roman Catholicism] or in open knowing "denial" and/or "rejection" of the official doctrinal position given by Roman Pontiffs [popes] and/or Official Councils, is then for those persons to be in "mortal sin".

(*) "... The Pope has a heavenly arbitrament, and therefore he is able to change the nature of things, substantialia unius applicando alteri; and of nothing, to make things be; and of a sentence that is nothing, to make it stand in effect. The Pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law; and of wrong make right, by correcting and changing laws. - Pope Nicholas, Dist. 96, Cap. Satis.-Dist. 12. Caus. 11. Quest. 1. Cap. Sacerdotibus.-Caus. 12. Quest. 1. Cap. Futuram. ..." - Illustrations of Popery, The Mystery of Iniquity unveiled ... by Chandler Curtis; page 210 - The mystery of iniquity unveiled

See also The Acts and Monuments of John Foxe, Volume 4, Part 1, 1856, by John Foxe (1516-1587), pgs. 159-160. - The acts and monuments of John Foxe

Pope Nicolaus, Dist. 96. c. 7 'Satis.' - Canon Law Collections | Pages

[Causa] 11. q. 41. 'Sacerdotibus.' - Canon Law Collections | Pages

[Causa] 12. q. l. ' Futurum.' - Canon Law Collections | Pages
 
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utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You do realize that 'not being forced' to recant (ie go against conscience), does not hinder them (who are torturing the obstinate heretic as a means to regain them through coersive means, and have them bound) from still putting the 'obstinate heretic' to death, don't you? The one (obstinate heretic, acting according to conscience and carrying it out) put to death wasn't forced to become a catholic were they?

See how 'subtil' (Gen 3:1) Romanism is ... sounds so sweet in the ear ...
Nope. It does not say that.

Sorry Torture is a sin and against church teaching.

It states quite clearly "Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions"

The church can't put anyone to death. If anyone does it they have sin and gone against church teaching.

Our teaching is right there with the catechism.

Only through misrepresentation, falsehood and lies can one attempt to make it mean something else.

Again, If you ask Nazis what Jews believe you are not going to get an accurate answer.

In the Catholic church Love is the highest priority. God is Love. And we are solely to abide in Love to do so is to abide in God. Even Evil means to a "good" end is unacceptable.

We are not allowed to force conversion. And we are to encourage others in their faith.

I'm not to have any ILL WILL towards anyone. We are taught to love our enemies.

We would say you are brothers and sisters in Christ.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Therefore, since utilyan decided to quote Canon Law on conscience, and we see from that quotation that it does not prevent death to the obstinate heretic in the least, let's see what Romanism teaches about obstinate heretics and those excommunicate:

"... C. XLVII. Non sunt homicidae qui adversus excommunicatos zelo matris ecclesiae armantur ..."

...They are not to be accounted murderers who, zealous for the mother church, have killed excommunicated persons. ...” [“The Decretum of Gratian Part 2 Case 23 Question 5 chapter 47-48”; Decreti Secunda Pars Causa XXIII. Quest. V. c. 47-49; [47,48 specifically; section 49 given in 'defense' of these actions/reasons]] –http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_6029936_001/pages/ldpd_6029936_001_00000531.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= AND http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_6029936_001/pages/ldpd_6029936_001_00000532.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left=

See? They do not count obstinate heretics as innocent, neither do they account it murder to put them to death, just as Thomas Aquinas said.

Now let's look at Morality a little more:

[CCC] " …

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

IV.
ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1792
Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Erroneous Judgment] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P62.HTM

[CCC] " …

II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Definition of Sin] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6A.HTM

The Roman Catholic Church just previously defined what being in "right conscience" was in regards to "moral conduct"... and it includes accepting her "authority and her teaching" and thus also "reason" for it is the 'Pope's will that stands for (in the place of) reason (*) thus (pope) has the 'right conscience').

To not accept, or to reject her "authority and her teaching" is then a blatant violation [according to this system] of "right conscience" in "moral conduct", being a "desire contrary to the eternal law" [to be seen in more depth further in], injuring "human solidarity" ["common good"] and therefore is "sin" as defined by the Roman Catholic theological position which defines all things regarding "faith and morals".

By that definition then, any and all persons who are then continually and knowingly ["obstinate ill will"] in an open state of "denial" and/or "rejection" of the "faith" [Roman Catholicism] or in open knowing "denial" and/or "rejection" of the official doctrinal position given by Roman Pontiffs [popes] and/or Official Councils, is then for those persons to be in "mortal sin".

(*) "... The Pope has a heavenly arbitrament, and therefore he is able to change the nature of things, substantialia unius applicando alteri; and of nothing, to make things be; and of a sentence that is nothing, to make it stand in effect. The Pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law; and of wrong make right, by correcting and changing laws. - Pope Nicholas, Dist. 96, Cap. Satis.-Dist. 12. Caus. 11. Quest. 1. Cap. Sacerdotibus.-Caus. 12. Quest. 1. Cap. Futuram. ..." - Illustrations of Popery, The Mystery of Iniquity unveiled ... by Chandler Curtis; page 210 - The mystery of iniquity unveiled

See also The Acts and Monuments of John Foxe, Volume 4, Part 1, 1856, by John Foxe (1516-1587), pgs. 159-160. - The acts and monuments of John Foxe

Pope Nicolaus, Dist. 96. c. 7 'Satis.' - Canon Law Collections | Pages

[Causa] 11. q. 41. 'Sacerdotibus.' - Canon Law Collections | Pages

[Causa] 12. q. l. ' Futurum.' - Canon Law Collections | Pages

Nope in fact we get heat for just the opposite, No to capital punishment.

The death penalty

2267. Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”,[1] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Nope in fact we get heat for just the opposite, No to capital punishment.

The death penalty

2267. Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”,[1] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.
Roman Catholic Catechism [Just War]

[CCC] " … 2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. the power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER TWO YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF; Article 5 THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT; III. Safeguarding Peace] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P81.HTM

Roman Catholic Catechism [Just War]

[CCC] " … 2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER TWO YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF; Article 5 THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT; III. Safeguarding Peace] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P81.HTM

Let it now be asked rhetorically, "What power on earth boldly declares that it determines what a "legitimate government" is?" It was also stated that, "… She forbade clerics to shed blood. …", but this was seen for what it is, in that "she" hides behind words and definitions of "her" own making, for those very "clerics" were most intimate in the oversight and direction of who, how, why, when, where and in what manner to "shed blood" [the very mind behind the actions themselves] and of various means of torture which did not involve methods to "shed blood". It was stated that, "… the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. …", yet it was shown that both "clemency" and "mercy" were only for those who "repented"/"recanted" thoroughly, and not for those [such as "heretics"] who remained in "obstinate ill will" toward "her", no longer being "innocent". "She" says in regards to the "practices" of "torture" that, "… It is necessary to work for their abolition. …", and "she" has been seen as meaning this in such a way as most will not begin to understand until they begin to think in "her" mindset, terms and rules/laws of engagement, for "she" actually means that they are to be abolished only when the world is converted to "her" way of thinking and teaching.

So, of course "she" looks forward to it, but such an ecumenical, or even realized unity with "her" is nothing to rejoice over. "She" then says very piously that, "… We must pray for the victims and their tormentors. …", and not only does this actually promote one false doctrine not found in scripture [the open ended idea of being able to pray for the past dead/deceased], it promotes even others still, such as the erroneous, false and dangerous theology of "purgatory". Roman Catholic Canon Law is itself "adopted" and derived itself from Emperor Justinian's Roman Law Code, and we see this in the Roman Catholic Church's "Tribunals". [["… So the immortal "Corpus Juris Civilis" was produced, consisting of four parts: (a) Digestae seu Pondecta, (b) Institutiones, (c) Codex, (d) Authenticum seu Novellae (an excellent account of its composition is found in Bury's Gibbon, ed. Cit., IV 461-510). It would be difficult to exaggerate the importance of this "Corpus". It is the basis of all canon law (ecclesia vivit lege romana), and the basis of civil law in every civilized country. …"; Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Justinian I] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08578b.htm]

See for yourself:

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Roman Catholicism sees obstinate heresy as a direct assault upon itself and the 'common good' as defined by the 'pope', whose will stands for reason, and right conscience.

Thus, eliminate the few holdouts to protect the empire. Sounds familiar, no?

Joh_11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

What was that about 'common good' utilyan and 'Legitimate defense'? The pharisees needed to protect themselves (Lies) from the onslaught of Jesus (Truth).

Even a Canonist agrees with me:

".. Catechism number 2266 (1997) went from two sections to one. Importantly, specific reference to the death penalty within the doctrinal statement cited above was removed. That statement was changed to read: “Legitimate public authority has the right and the duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense.” This new statement does not prohibit the use of the death penalty, but emphasized the need to consider proportionate punishment. It remained a doctrinal statement, but expressed differently. ...

... Keeping in mind that the Catechism is a systematic summary of teaching, we must view the change within the context of nos. 2263-2266, his 2017 private audience, and perennial teachings on conscience and the dignity of man. When we do this, we understand that the death penalty is “inadmissible” as a punishment when a deadly criminal can be kept safely locked up without fear of break-out; when there is hope for redemption as in the case of Cain; when a despot uses the punishment unjustly; when society has the means to rehabilitate and the person is willing to be rehabilitated; when there are less extreme means to legitimately defend others. In other words, he changed words without changing doctrine or discipline. ..." - https://cuf.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/18-09-24-Capital-Punishment-Catechism-Statement.pdf

Read another here - Okay, what about Catholics and the death penalty?
 
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Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Nope. It does not say that.

Sorry Torture is a sin and against church teaching. ...
"...David of Augsburg (cf. Preger, "Der Traktat des David von Augshurg uber die Waldenser", Munich, 1878 pp. 43 sqq.) pointed out to the inquisitor four methods of extracting open acknowledgment:

fear of death, i.e. by giving the accused to understand that the stake awaited him if he would not confess; ...

… more or less close confinement, possibly emphasized by curtailment of food; ...

… visits of tried men, who would attempt to induce free confession through friendly persuasion; ...

torture, which will be discussed below. …

... Had this papal legislation been adhered to in practice, the historian of the Inquisition would have fewer difficulties to satisfy. In the beginning, torture was held to be so odious that clerics were forbidden to be present under pain of irregularity. Sometimes it had to be interrupted so as to enable the inquisitor to continue his examination, which, of course, was attended by numerous inconveniences. Therefore on 27 April, 1260, Alexander IV authorized inquisitors to absolve one another of this irregularity. Urban IV on 2 August, 1262, renewed the permission, and this was soon interpreted as formal licence to continue the examination in the torture chamber itself. The inquisitors manuals faithfully noted and approved this usage. The general rule ran that torture was to be resorted to only once. But this was sometimes circumventedfirst, by assuming that with every new piece of evidence the rack could be utilized afresh, and secondly, by imposing fresh torments on the poor victim (often on different days), not by way of repetition, but as a continuation (non ad modum iterationis sed continuationis), as defended by Eymeric; "quia, iterari non debent [tormenta], nisi novis supervenitibus indiciis, continuari non prohibentur."..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

["fewer difficulties to satisfy"? ["she" openly admits that there is such a past, and stretches "her" mind to explain "her" methods satisfactorily, with "reason", even in the light of all available evidence], "numerous inconveniences"?, "absolve one another of this irregularity"? ["irregularity" is speaking of that which is defined and written in Canon Law] ...and why "odious"?, obviously not because of concern for the living being tortured, maimed or about to be burned, killed, but for their own "sanctity", for their own "purity" so that they [priests, etc] would not incur, what they term "irregularity", which they later could simply "absolve" their ownselves of, by Papal authorization, which means the Pope knew exactly what was going on. [see also, "Ad Extirpanda", "Inquisitors" are "commissioned by the Apostolic See" and are "obtained" from the "Apostolic See".

"...torture...was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull "Ad exstirpanda" of 15 May, 1252, which was confirmed by Alexander IV on 30 November, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 November, 1265. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

Do you want me to quote Ad Extripanda? I can ...

Extirpanda; translated into English; Pope Innocent IV; for further notation and Latin text, please follow the Link provided] - http://www.scribd.com/doc/23292309/Ad-Extirpanda-Pope-Innocent-IV-1252
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"...David of Augsburg (cf. Preger, "Der Traktat des David von Augshurg uber die Waldenser", Munich, 1878 pp. 43 sqq.) pointed out to the inquisitor four methods of extracting open acknowledgment:

fear of death, i.e. by giving the accused to understand that the stake awaited him if he would not confess; ...

… more or less close confinement, possibly emphasized by curtailment of food; ...

… visits of tried men, who would attempt to induce free confession through friendly persuasion; ...

torture, which will be discussed below. …

... Had this papal legislation been adhered to in practice, the historian of the Inquisition would have fewer difficulties to satisfy. In the beginning, torture was held to be so odious that clerics were forbidden to be present under pain of irregularity. Sometimes it had to be interrupted so as to enable the inquisitor to continue his examination, which, of course, was attended by numerous inconveniences. Therefore on 27 April, 1260, Alexander IV authorized inquisitors to absolve one another of this irregularity. Urban IV on 2 August, 1262, renewed the permission, and this was soon interpreted as formal licence to continue the examination in the torture chamber itself. The inquisitors manuals faithfully noted and approved this usage. The general rule ran that torture was to be resorted to only once. But this was sometimes circumventedfirst, by assuming that with every new piece of evidence the rack could be utilized afresh, and secondly, by imposing fresh torments on the poor victim (often on different days), not by way of repetition, but as a continuation (non ad modum iterationis sed continuationis), as defended by Eymeric; "quia, iterari non debent [tormenta], nisi novis supervenitibus indiciis, continuari non prohibentur."..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

["fewer difficulties to satisfy"? ["she" openly admits that there is such a past, and stretches "her" mind to explain "her" methods satisfactorily, with "reason", even in the light of all available evidence], "numerous inconveniences"?, "absolve one another of this irregularity"? ["irregularity" is speaking of that which is defined and written in Canon Law] ...and why "odious"?, obviously not because of concern for the living being tortured, maimed or about to be burned, killed, but for their own "sanctity", for their own "purity" so that they [priests, etc] would not incur, what they term "irregularity", which they later could simply "absolve" their ownselves of, by Papal authorization, which means the Pope knew exactly what was going on. [see also, "Ad Extirpanda", "Inquisitors" are "commissioned by the Apostolic See" and are "obtained" from the "Apostolic See".

"...torture...was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull "Ad exstirpanda" of 15 May, 1252, which was confirmed by Alexander IV on 30 November, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 November, 1265. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

Do you want me to quote Ad Extripanda? I can ...

Extirpanda; translated into English; Pope Innocent IV; for further notation and Latin text, please follow the Link provided] - http://www.scribd.com/doc/23292309/Ad-Extirpanda-Pope-Innocent-IV-1252

2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91

Torture is a sin. A Pope cannot make doctrinal changes, And if his legislative decrees are evil then they are against church teaching.

Simply put if it is evil then it is not catholic teaching and against catholic teaching.

You cannot exercise evil means for a good end.

You can have a Nihil obstat, imprimatur,papal bull, even a ex cathedra if it is evil being evil is against catholic teaching.

They would already be tripping the rule of having to follow your good conscience.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
... performed on innocent persons are against the moral law. ...
Right back to square one utilyan, its all in the matter of how Romanism defined 'innocent'. Obstinate heretics aren't 'innocent', they're 'guilty' of 'mortal sin', according to Rome a deadly 'contagion', likened unto rabies in catholic literature, that needs to be put down so as not to infect the rest of the catholic faithful.

"Summa Theologica: Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated? ..."

"… I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. ..."

"...On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. ..."

"...Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command ..."

"...For this reason the Church not only admits to Penance those who return from heresy for the first time, but also safeguards their lives, and sometimes by dispensation, restores them to the ecclesiastical dignities which they may have had before, should their conversion appear to be sincere: we read of this as having frequently been done for the good of peace. But when they fall again, after having been received, this seems to prove them to be inconstant in faith, wherefore when they return again, they are admitted to Penance, but are not delivered from the pain of death. ..."

"...Reply to Objection 1. In God's tribunal, those who return are always received, because God is a searcher of hearts, and knows those who return in sincerity. But the Church cannot imitate God in this, for she presumes that those who relapse after being once received, are not sincere in their return; hence she does not debar them from the way of salvation, but neither does she protect them from the sentence of death. …" [Summa Theologica The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat.
F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm

"...Like other powers and rights, the power of rejecting heresy adapts itself in practice to circumstances of time and place, and, especially, of social and political conditions. ...

"...The ancient discipline charged the bishops with the duty of searching out the heresies in their diocese and checking the progress of error by any means at their command. ..."

"...In some particularly aggravated cases sentence of death was pronounced upon heretics..."

"...The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power. Other synods, and the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) under Pope Innocent III, repeated and enforced this decree, especially the Synod of Toulouse (1229), which established inquisitors in every parish (one priest and two laymen). ..."

"...The present-day legislation against heresy has lost nothing of its ancient severity; but the penalties on heretics are now only of the spiritual order; all the punishments which require the intervention of the secular arm have fallen into abeyance. ..."

"...To restrain and bring back her rebellious sons the Church uses both her own spiritual power and the secular power at her command. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Heresy] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_VIII
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Right back to square one utilyan, its all in the matter of how Romanism defined 'innocent'. Obstinate heretics aren't 'innocent', they're 'guilty' of 'mortal sin', according to Rome a deadly 'contagion', likened unto rabies in catholic literature, that needs to be put down so as not to infect the rest of the catholic faithful.

"Summa Theologica: Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated? ..."

"… I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. ..."

"...On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. ..."

"...Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command ..."

"...For this reason the Church not only admits to Penance those who return from heresy for the first time, but also safeguards their lives, and sometimes by dispensation, restores them to the ecclesiastical dignities which they may have had before, should their conversion appear to be sincere: we read of this as having frequently been done for the good of peace. But when they fall again, after having been received, this seems to prove them to be inconstant in faith, wherefore when they return again, they are admitted to Penance, but are not delivered from the pain of death. ..."

"...Reply to Objection 1. In God's tribunal, those who return are always received, because God is a searcher of hearts, and knows those who return in sincerity. But the Church cannot imitate God in this, for she presumes that those who relapse after being once received, are not sincere in their return; hence she does not debar them from the way of salvation, but neither does she protect them from the sentence of death. …" [Summa Theologica The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat.
F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm

"...Like other powers and rights, the power of rejecting heresy adapts itself in practice to circumstances of time and place, and, especially, of social and political conditions. ...

"...The ancient discipline charged the bishops with the duty of searching out the heresies in their diocese and checking the progress of error by any means at their command. ..."

"...In some particularly aggravated cases sentence of death was pronounced upon heretics..."

"...The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power. Other synods, and the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) under Pope Innocent III, repeated and enforced this decree, especially the Synod of Toulouse (1229), which established inquisitors in every parish (one priest and two laymen). ..."

"...The present-day legislation against heresy has lost nothing of its ancient severity; but the penalties on heretics are now only of the spiritual order; all the punishments which require the intervention of the secular arm have fallen into abeyance. ..."

"...To restrain and bring back her rebellious sons the Church uses both her own spiritual power and the secular power at her command. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Heresy] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_VIII

"... performed on innocent persons are against the moral law. ..."

You chopped the words, why?

"Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91"

Oh wow no attempt at deception there. Your credibility just went to zero.

Why don't you leave Lies and Deception to us professionals?
 

MartyF

Well-Known Member
Roman Catholicism and the total abuse & murder of children (incl. abortion).

Those attempting to defend Roman Catholicism when they are clearly in error, always resort to a dirty trick of distraction, and so when 'on the ropes', 'backed into a corner' when facts are clearly presented that they cannot (will not) answer, they often like to tout that they are the protectors of the 'innocent', and especially like to 'blow their trumpet' when it come to 'abortion' and 'rights to life', but when all is looked at carefully, they are one of the worst hypocrites in this matter, having abused, tortured, raped, bought and sold lives, murdered, committed adulteries, sodomies, not only in their long sordid history, to adults, but and this the most grievous, children, both born and having yet to be born from the womb. It will be documented in this thread.

What most do not know, is that Roman Catholicism defines very specifically who the 'innocent' are. Anyone that is classified by their own man-made rules (Canon law to this very day), an 'obstinate heretic' is no longer 'innocent', do not have any longer the 'right to life', are to be treated as a contagion to be contained or eliminated, and this also includes the children and even the unborn (in the womb), and can be put to death under the doctrine of the 'two swords' (Augustine; Aquinas, etc) and 'just war' dogmas. Then what happens is another tactic that follows, which is the 'plausible deniablity' clause, or the Roman Catholic plea of 'it wasn't us (church) it was them (govt)', all the while never admitting the facts of the case.

(Walter, this one's especially for you, I do hope you think on these things, before spouting off at the fingertips in your SJW mindset, for you are about to look the devil in the face).

Plead read this book - "Eaters of Children" by Johnny Cirucci (WARNING, very graphically documented, not for the faint of heart, including satanic ritual abuse, murder, etc) on the abuse, torture and murder of children by Roman Catholicism in the highest eschelons.

Please consider what goes on behind the closed doors of the Roman Catholic system:




So, as is stated by Walter:



Let's see if this is actually true, or if the whole truth is not being shown.

The official position of the Seventh-day Adventist movement, even from its key personalities, such as brother James White, sister Ellen G White and others:

"... ABORTION

"Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than develish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has 'as many children as he can support.' instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. {1870 JW, SOAP 100.2}

"The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of this crime. {1870 JW, SOAP 100.3}

"But the effort to destroy the child is [101] many times unsuccessful, and the little one is born with murder in his heart, stamped there by the murderous intentions of his own mother. And what wonder that these inborn passions should lead him to the lowest depths of degradation both as regards the body and the soul! Many a child lives to mature years, dwarfed and deformed in body, and irritable and imbecile in mind, a disgrace to himself and to the race, who might have been a model of beauty and strength, both physically and mentally, but for the attempts of his parents to destroy his life before he was born. {1870 JW, SOAP 100.4}

"And besides all this, the consequences of such a practice are most disastrous both upon the physical and moral nature of those whose souls are stained with this terrible sin. The general health of the mother is often ruined, and the generative organs seriously injured. No system can endure the shock produced by this unnatural crime without being more or less impaired, while many a woman meets death as a penalty for her sin; others live, but are never again in a condition to conceive, and often suffer constantly in consequence of their fiendish endeavors; while others still are enabled to bear children, but with such anguish as no tongue may tell, and the child thus born is frequently a curse to himself and all with whom he is connected." {1870 JW, SOAP 101.1} ..." - James Springer White (Husband to Ellen G. White, and prominent leader of Seventh-day Adventist Movement), A Solemn Appeal, pages 100.2-101.1

*******


"... SPIRITUALISM is the worst form of infidelity, because of its wonder-working, and snake-like charming propensities. We present in this article a few extracts, 1 showing from the writings of spirits and Spiritualists that the tendency of Spiritualism is ungodly and corrupting; that it leads to adultery, fornication, desertions, unjust divorces, prostitution, abortion, insanity, and suicide. {March 25, 1862 JWe, ARSH 131.9} ..." - James Springer White (Husband to Ellen G. White, and prominent leader of Seventh-day Adventist Movement), Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 25, 1862, page 131.9

Now, let's see what Rome teaches and practices (briefly, and more detail will be given later)
:

Who was it that allowed Abortion in the United States government, in the Roe Vs Wade case? If you said "catholicism" and "Roman Catholics" you would be right! Here it is:

One of the 'Justices' of the Supreme Court, during the Roe v Wade, was a Roman Catholic, named, “William Joseph Brennan, Jr.”, who “... voted to legalize abortion.” - Was Roe Vs. Wade Decided By a Republican Court?

Was Roe Vs. Wade Decided By a Republican Court?

Religion of the Supreme Court

'Justice' William Joseph Brennan, Jr. was not Latae Sententiae excommunicate because the law of Romanism is to undermine the Protestant ethic, weaken a nation morally, subvert the people, and to eliminate its enemies through population control, while Catholic families multiply, though some will be caught in the crossfire.

It is simply the modern warfare of the Roman Catholic ideology of “just war” continued through legislation and legal practice, instead of assault by armies, in which the wombs of protestant mothers were ripped open, children killed, heads dashed against the rocks, thrown over cliffs, thrown to dogs, and so on. The history of Roman Catholicism is open for anyone to read.

In fact, even at present, there are many in the Roman Catholic system today that want abortion legalized, and it has been all over the news, and they even have campaigns and websites for promoting abortion:

Catholics for Choice - "... Catholics for Choice believes in a world where everyone has equal access to the full range of reproductive healthcare services—including access to safe and legal abortion services and affordable and reliable forms of contraception. ..." - - Catholics for Choice

"... And although religious groups have been some of the most vocal anti-abortion advocates in America, the majority of people who got abortions in 2014 identified as religious, with 17 percent listing themselves as mainline Protestant, 13 percent as evangelical, and 24 percent as Roman Catholic. The abortion rate among Catholic women was about the same as the national average, while among evangelical women it was about half the national average. ..." - VOX - https://www.vox.com/2019/5/16/18628002/abortion-ohio-alabama-georgia-law-bill-details

Got Hate?

Well, I'll leave you to your unicorns and cockatrices.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Got Hate?

Well, I'll leave you to your unicorns and cockatrices.
Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev_2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Rev_2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Psa_119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Please notice, that God hates, the 'deed', and the 'doctrine' and 'every false way', but loves the person enough to tell them to repent. Thus I follow Jesus Christ who spoke, Who do you follow?

'unicorns' are simply rhinos (uni-cornis, or bi-cornis), and 'cockatrices' are poisonous vipers.
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Like does he think he will get any Catholics to convert to the SDA? Or any of the Baptists here either?
Not the point of this thread. It is simply informational dissemination. That which converts is to behold Christ Jesus lifted up on the cross, suffering, bleeding, dying, bearing the weight of all of our sins, having the Father turn away His face from Him, and the Holy Ghost silent, and all the heavenly angels turning away, and man having forsaken Him, so that He was all "alone" and "by Himself". How precious is the one who first loved us, how good and merciful and faithful and loving is Jesus to have gone through all of the way of suffering, that we might have a path to follow and be reunited with Him forever and ever. Do you see Jesus lifted up in the minds eye, can you see Him looking down at you, can you hear His words spoken? Can you see the evil that surrounded Him on every side, seen and unseen (evil angels and the devil himself)? Can you see the cruelty of man and devil compared and contrasted with the goodness of God upon the Cross? Can you see how thirsty He is? Can you see the life draining from Him, breath by breath, slowing and slower still? Can you hear His words, "Father forgive them ...", can you hear those words for you, that no man may take from you? Do you hear His prayer to the Father on your behalf? Can you see Him finally still, no longer moving, no longer breathing, cold, lifeless, limp, dead, emaciated, all poured out? Can you see the rough hands that handle Him in removing Him? Can you see Him shut away in the cold, damp, dark, tomb, sealed away by a rock? Do you see the women weeping? Do you see Joseph and Nicodemus holding back the tears to prepare Him gently for rest? Where is the voice that for so many years gave comfort to those in need, to those in heartache and pain? Where is the hands that touched and healed thousands? All now still, wrapped together, laid in the tomb for your sins and my sins, and the sins of the whole world. ... but don't stop there, behold the angel Gabriel sent from the Father, clothed in the glorious office of Heaven, coming down, shaking the earth with mighty power direct from the throne of Deity, scattering all the darkness, rolling back the stone of the tomb triumphantly and sitting upon it, calling to the Son of God, "Come forth, Thy Father calleth thee", and the power of God witnessed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "I am the resurrection and the Life".

Mine. All mine. Is any of that yours Adonia? or do you need something more?
 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
"... performed on innocent persons are against the moral law. ..."

You chopped the words, why?

"Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91"

Oh wow no attempt at deception there. Your credibility just went to zero.

Why don't you leave Lies and Deception to us professionals?
I didn't lie, and the quotation, whether full or ellipsed says the same. It is only for "innocent", thus for the 'innocent" it "is against moral Law". it says nothing about the 'guilty'. Thus anyone not innocent, it does not apply to as per themselves.

Did the pope and Romanism ever sanction "torture" utilyan? I can quote even Canon lawyers on this. I can cite history on this utilyan. Crusades, Inquistions, Bartholomew's Day Massacre, Waldensian persecution, crushing of Zwingli, Revolutions (Russian, France, Cuba, Italy, etc), to the modern day.





 

Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Got Hate?

Well, I'll leave you to your unicorns and cockatrices.
The entire 'system' is corrupt. Yes, one may have 'hatred' for evil and all its repugnance and odiousness, deeds and doctrines which blaspheme Jesus Christ, but Jesus died for the sinner.





 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I didn't lie, and the quotation, whether full or ellipsed says the same. It is only for "innocent", thus for the 'innocent" it "is against moral Law". it says nothing about the 'guilty'. Thus anyone not innocent, it does not apply to as per themselves.

Did the pope and Romanism ever sanction "torture" utilyan? I can quote even Canon lawyers on this. I can cite history on this utilyan. Crusades, Inquistions, Bartholomew's Day Massacre, Waldensian persecution, crushing of Zwingli, Revolutions (Russian, France, Cuba, Italy, etc), to the modern day.
"I didn't lie, and the quotation, whether full or ellipsed says the same."

No its dishonest. They are merely saying you shouldn't chop peoples hands off unless there is a medical reason.

"Did the pope and Romanism ever sanction "torture" utilyan? "

Probably, there is cases of popes cheating on anothers wife, even murder.

None of which has any bearing on Catholic teaching. Same as when Jews did wrong or even fall into idolatry, It never made the Jewish faith wrong despite how corrupt its authority was.

There is word for this sort of heresy that the authorities of a church must be blameless, Donatism.


I see you teach a version of original sin where I am culpable for all past Catholics acts is this correct? Does this apply to nationality race ethnicity also?
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
ot the point of this thread. It is simply informational dissemination.

Like we haven't seen this type of trash before? Why do you care so much about it? You have your little SDA sect to believe in, so why don't you concentrate your energies on living out their dictates to the full? Notice how none of us Catholics ever come here and start these some threads about the SDA and the falsehoods that your so-called prophet has put out? You fools cannot even interpret the Scriptures correctly so have no room to talk about anyone else.
 

MartyF

Well-Known Member
'unicorns' are simply rhinos (uni-cornis, or bi-cornis), and 'cockatrices' are poisonous vipers.

No.

The KJV translators knew that a unicorn was a mythical horse with a long pearly horn and that the cockatrice was also mythical cross between a rooster and a snake. They knew what a rhinoceros was and they already had a word for it - rhinoceros. They did not mix up the words multiple types.

But arguing with you will be as beneficial as arguing with a flat-earther.
 
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