Roman Catholicism , cult or not?

[Eliyahu]

We are not judging the people by group or by denomination,but when we discern the denominations and groups of people we need to examine their belief shown on the doctrines. If there are many people among the Roman Catholic who disagree to Maria Worship, Maria Idol, other Idols, Papacy, No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church, Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Infant Baptism, Indulgence Business, Immaculate Conception, Compulsory Celibacy, Extreme Unction, Ever-forgiveness demanding Mass (denying the forgiveness once for all), then such person is very fine. But in such case we would wonder why such person still stay there in Roman Catholic. We are not judging the people by denomination, but if anyone has the right faith, then the person must react to the wrong heresies.

If Rc change the doctrine on the No Salvation outside Roman Catholic, they have to change Papal Infallibility too, without condition to the Ex-Cathera.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Except, DHK, you have stated that you believe that Catholic Christians are not Christian at all and are destined for Hell. That at the very least borders on hate....whereas Catholics, whilst admittedly ambivalent in practice pre-Vatican II, are now more than willing to admit that those outside the Catholic Church can be saved (Lumen Gentium14, 15)

Matt, you don't read my posts close enough.
I have also stated that I was a Catholic for 20 years. I don't hate myself.
I also pointed out that my entire extended family including my own parents are Roman Catholic. It grieves me very much that if they don't get saved they will end up in Hell. The Catholic Church points them that way. It is their belief in their abominable doctrine that is sending them that way. Does that mean that I hate my parents? God forbid! Of course not! I love them very much; pray for them daily. I have said over and over again--it is the doctrine of the church that I hate; not the people.
DHK

 

[TFC123]

DHK

Whatever you say. I was not trying to disparage any particular denomination. My point was that as a catholic I was a product of my birth and environment. I knew nothing else.

Did I have friends of other religions. Well as a kid their religion never came up. We all just played baseball and hung out,we never were concerned with race,or religion, we were just kids.

As I grew up and met my wife I became aware that other religions exisisted aand thus became a Baptist like her.

My family was (grandmother) from Ireland where the Protestant/Catholic difference went beyond beliefs and into politics. So she was not very receptive to Protestants, she didn't distinguish Baptist, Methodist etc, they were all Protestants.

I through the years see that the feeling I experienced growing up as a Catholic are prevelant in all denominations. And yes I found it in Baptist Churches and Catholic churches.

My point is illustrated in that I have been banned from posting on Baptist only sites because I now attend a Christian Missionary Alliance church, which is about as close as you get to Baptist, they just have a missionary emphasis and I only ended up there because of changes at the Baptist church I belonged to. The pastor of 15 years left and the politics came out.

I did not even know what CMA was or that it was a CMA church. I thought it was Independent. They don't announce or push any agenda,just worship,pray and glorify Jesus.

Anyway I probably won't be back much. I don't stay where I'm not wanted. I will check to see if there is a response.

And I am not trynig to put anyone down, maybe it was the particular congretation I attended but It got mean.

Good by, Good luck and God Bless

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK,
I pray for your parents since you are a sincere believer in the Lord and have teh right faith. Please pray for my wife's parent family because they are Roman Catholic too.
Yes, we don't hate the people, but want them to be rescured from the wrong doctrines and wrong teachings.

 

[SuperBaptist]

I love Catholics. They just don't know when they are saved; that's all. Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine! Of course, they're not a cult. Just unsure and self-loathing at times. Ouch, that self-whipping hurts.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by TFC123:

Anyway I probably won't be back much. I don't stay where I'm not wanted. I will check to see if there is a response.

And I am not trynig to put anyone down, maybe it was the particular congretation I attended but It got mean.

Good by, Good luck and God Bless

No one said you are not wanted. You are very welcome to stay. We have to abide by the rules of the administration. Plymouth Brethren also have doctrine similar to Baptists. If we let the door open to one denomination, we have to make exceptions for many others. It is a Baptist Board after all. Thus we have made an exception for "All Other Denominations" to post in this area. I trust you can graciously accept the rules that you agreed to when you read them and clicked that button that said "I agree."
DHK

 

[TFC123]

I graciously accept them, but maybe I'll look for a Christian board.

Thanks
I may have clicked the I agree buttton but
12 years as a Baptist and still in Church that believes the same, I didn't read it all I thought that the rules applied to bad things you can't do on here. I did learn a lot about people in my short time here though, so nothing was lost.

I'll pray for you all - God bless

 

[Eliyahu]

The distinction between Personal Attack and Doctrinal Attack has been often problem in the religious debate. I am not very sure if it is generally agreed or accepted in the society. For example, Muslims would not allow even the doctrinal criticism against their belief. For example, having 4 wives or encouraging Jihad etc. Often I notice RC react to the criticism against Papacy or Mary Worship vigorously as the persoanl attack.
I believe that the Truth stands quite well against the strong billows.

 

[mcneely]

If the RCC is a cult, does that mean every christian who died went to Hell for 1600 years after the Roman Persecutions?

---Justin

 

[Matt Black]

Indeed. There was no alternative to the Catholic-Orthodox Church for over 1000 years; if this Church wasn't Christian, then Jesus lied when He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Not manmade religions. He did not say the gates of hell would not prevail against the Catholic Church.

 

[Matt Black]

There was no other Church during that period.

 

[mcneely]

To say that the RCC is a cult is absolutely rediculous. Protestant churches were historically NON EXISTANT until the Lutheran Reformation. How then can we condemn the Catholic Church knowing that it is the oldest and largest Christian Church?

I once read a post (possibly on this thread) that stated that age of the church doesen't matter, and that it would be similar in saying that Budhism and Islam are correct because they are older.

First of all, those religions have NOTHING to do with Christianity. Secondly, in the circumstance of the RCC age certainly DOES matter. For well over a millenium, the existence of any other type of christian church was non existant (except for heretics). The Traditions of the Catholic Church are as old as the Church as well.

I refuse to accept the notion that the RCC is evil, or a cult, or heretical, or idolitrous, or whatever other silly accusation thrown at it is true. I know many Catholics personally, and they are great men and women of God. I suppose people have a hard time accepting what they claim to, but do not truly understand.

---Justin

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
There was no other Church during that period.

There was no other church during what period?
The Catholic Church never came into existence until the fourth century. You would have a hard time proving otherwise unless your stuck on using only Catholic revisionist sources.
DHK

 

[mcneely]

until the fourth century, Christianity was under persecution. Using that line of reasoning, DHK, that would imply the notion that Christ's "real" Church vanished after the fourth century because of the dreadful RCC cult. And all of those poor people who were Christians for the better part of the following millenium died and went to hell because they were Catholic.

does anyone else think that this idea of the RCC being a cult is just nonsense, or is it just me?

---justin

 

[DHK]

The "church" or more accurately "churches" flourished because of persecution.

Acts 8:3-4 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
--The history of true Biblical Christianity is a history written in blood.
God has never left himself without a witness. In every age there have been Bible-believing churches outside the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has never been God's vehicle for preserving or proclaiming the truth of God. From the beginning it has been a place of idolatry. It began with Constantine when Christianity not only became a state religion, but Christianity became paganized. But outside of this paganized form of Christianity there were always those that remained faithful to Him.
All one has to do is look at the beliefs of the RCC to realize that it is a cult and not true Biblical Christianity.
DHK

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
There was no other Church during that period.

There was no other church during what period?
The Catholic Church never came into existence until the fourth century. You would have a hard time proving otherwise unless your stuck on using only Catholic revisionist sources.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]The period from the end of the Roman persecution until the Reformation (OK, I'll allow you the Waldenses but certainly no more of JM Carroll's Trail of Hogwash nonsense - so, 313 to the 1160s minimalistically is the period we're looking at)

[ETA - mcneeley I wholeheartedly agree with you; it's just that there are some folks here who've been drinking too much of Carroll's KoolAid(TM)]

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by DHK:
The "church" or more accurately "churches" flourished because of persecution.

Acts 8:3-4 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
--The history of true Biblical Christianity is a history written in blood.
God has never left himself without a witness. In every age there have been Bible-believing churches outside the Catholic Church.

And your historical evidence for this is...?

 

[Eliyahu]

Many people don't know that there were so many true believers outside Roman Catholic Church during the dark age.
First of all there was Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox. The church went to China even during the first century as we find the Christian monument in China which dates back to Han-Mooje ( The emperor during the first century AD) and it says the year of monument as 86 AD. Then North Korea excavated the Christian village dating back to 2nd century. At that time Aspostle Thomas is believed to have preached in India as there are many records of it. Then Eastern Church after Nestorius advanced to China once again, and Nestorians were the 2nd largest religious group after Taosim there during 6-10 century AD. King Tae Jong was a born again believer who was powerful during 7 c AD.
We find Genghis Khan was an animist but his predecessor Ungkhan was a Christian, and the most powerful emperor of Won Dynasty ( MOngolian dynasty which ruled upto Russia and Poland, Middle East) was Kubhilai Khan and he was a Nestorian Christian, many of the generals are found to have names Philip, John, Mark among Mongloians. Another dynasty called Ryao in North Western Manchuria was Christian dynasty. There were many Jews and Messianic Jews in China too, during Ssoong dynasty. They diminished from the politics from 14c but we can imagine some of them survived almost until the new wave of Portestants missionaries there.

In Europe, there were many true believers outside RC, i.e. Paulicans, Montanusian, Donatusian, Cathari, Albigene, Waldenese, Bogomil, West Rhein Bruder Gemeinde, Wieder Taufer Gemeinde, Bohemian Brethren, Moravian Brethren, Heugnots in France. There were hundreds of groups in Europe even thoough they were condemned as heretics by RC and were accused of what they didn't say or never proclaimed, by RC. The true history of the church is preserved by God, but a glimpse of it can be found in:

John Foxe "Martyr"
Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-000.htm

[ March 19, 2006, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

[mcneely]

The Catholic Church isn't the only church with dark and shameful chapters in their history. Let's not forget the violent and ignorant activities linked with, for example, the Puritans.

By the way, there could not have been any "born again, bible believing" churches or people in the first few centuries after Jesus' death. Why? Because copies of scripture were EXTREMELY rare. And there was no bible until Rome had adopted Christianity (That's historic, and I didn't read it in a book written by a "Catholic revisionist" ).

There have been some wonderful Men and women of God throughout the Church Age who were, and are Catholic. No one can convince me that they are a cult. Or that Christ's "real" Church, the one that he himself said could not be overcome by even the gates of Hell, had been in hiding and destruction and "persecution" until the reformation. It's all silliness.

---Justin