Roman Catholicism

[Matt Black]

Matt Black,

You said...



Its all the word of God. It doesnt make an ounce of difference wether Jesus Christ said something that ended up in Gods scriptures or wether Paul said something that ended up in the scriptures.

There is without a doubt a progression of revelation in Gods scriptures. Pretty much everyone understands and acknowledges that we read the old testament "in light of" the new testament. Meaning that the new testament explains, clarifies and teaches in great detail things that are sometimes given obscurely...types and shadows...in the old testament.

What sometimes causes problems is when people fail to understand that the same thing applies to the Epistles in relation to the Gospels.

Jesus said...



The fullness of new covenant church doctrine is NOT found in the gospels but in the epistles. That shouldnt be a stumbling block, but for some strange reason with some it is.

There is absolutly nothing in the Gospels that comes even remotely close to the "in depth", comprehensive, and exaustive new covenant doctrinal teachings found in books like Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Collosians and Hebrews.

That is where the fullness of church doctrine is found.

Where Jesus might give a parable(that would have people scratching their heads), God would later give three or 4 in depth and detailed chapters through Paul.(or someone else, but usually Paul)

Where Jesus might allude to and old testament "type" and give a quick little nugget of truth to chew on, God would later give chapter after chapter after chapter of clear, concise, detailed doctrinal truth.

Obviously, the idea that anyone would dismiss Paul to accept Christs teachings, or dismiss Christs teachings to heed Pauls teachings is ridiculous.

But the reality of the "progression of revelation" in the scriptures is so very important. The new testament explains the old, and the epistles explain the gospels.

I was speaking with someone a while back at work and this guy said..."But these are the words of CHRIST in the sermon on the mount!!!

I just couldnt get him to understand how irrelavent that is.

ANYTHING that ends up in scripture is the WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

The same God who WAS Jesus Christ also spoke and taught through Paul, Peter, and the others. (But regarding church doctrine, most voluminously through Paul.)

Grace and peace,

Mike

So, are you saying that Paul's letters 'trump' Jesus' words? And does that mean that James ("faith without works is dead") and Revelation 'trump' Paul?

 

[Mike McK]

I did not get my information from the Catholics, I got it from Oxfords's History of Christianity.

With the introduction of the non-denominational church which in itself is a denomination of one, that number of 30,000 is even higher. In my town alone, there are 30 churches with 3 of them being non-denominational. The actual statistic say 30,000 have been created. Some have disolved an no longer exist. But the statistic does not take into the explosion of non-denominations that started in the 90's and is continuing to balloon(will it burst?).

There are 19,429 cities that have municipal governments according to: http://www.nlc.org/about_cities/cities_101/138.cfm
So if each city has at least one non-denominational church, we have at least 19,429 denominations based on non-denominationals alone.

I suggest you do some better research.

20 of the churches in my town carry some title of "Baptist" in their name. I teach Sunday School at mine(unfortunately I cannot teach things that oppose what my Pastor believes and I can not teach those things that oppose what I believe. For I must stand before Jesus one day. I fear more to tell him "I taught only what I was taught" I rather tell him: "I taught what YOU told me to taught"). After Sunday School, I hurry to the next Church on my list. I attend a different church each Sunday and return to my home church Sunday Night for Bible.

This Church hopping I have been doing for 3 years now. I wanted to experience differing preaching styles and technigues. What I have discovered is distinct beliefs, faiths, and theologies. I am well known in my town now because of this. I am known as "The Critiquer". Why? I sit in the back pew with my notepad taking notes.

One town.
30 Different churches.
30 Different Minds.
30 Diffierent interpretations of the Bible.
30 Churches claiming to teach the "One Truth".

Because of this, I came upon the brink of denouncing God and Religion.

Even my 5 "Study Bibles" had commentaries that differed in interpretation. This disturbeds me even more. Each Bible has a list of Pastors and Theologians that contributed to the commentaries. Each list had at the most 5%, the same contributors.

Then one night, I had a dream. I was in a bookstore looking for another "Study Bible". Everytime I reached for a study bible I became completely afraid. Finally after numerous attempts I reached for a very thin plain Bible. It was thin because it was void of commentary. Only then did I feel a sense of comfort and love.

I woke up immediately at 4 am and went to the Walmart Super Center and searched for a plain Bible. And I began to read and read and read. I did not have the temptation and distraction of commentaries and other study aids.

The rest is as I stated in my initial post.

God Bless and Go live the Gospel.

He's right. The 40,000 number, even 30,00 isn't accurate. I've seen these lists and they often include apostate churches, cultic churches, cultic churches and just plain other religions, such as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses.

All of that aside, would you please show me three denominations that hold to orthodoxy that disagree on any of the essential doctrines of Christianity?

 

[Matt Black]

...which are...?

 

[mojoala]

How about THIS IDEA... that ONE of the Protestant Churches is right and all the rest, plus the Catholic Church is WRONG

Okay Only One Protestant Church is right!

Which One?

Mine? or Yours?

Jesus has only one truth. With respect to an exact Interpretation of each Individual Verse, there is only ONE TRUTH!

My Pastor will not agree on the same Interpretation of every single Verse that your Pastor does.

So if your Church and mine were the only ones in existence, who is teaching the ONE TRUTH in it's entirety, Verse for Verse?

Mine or Yours?

 

[mojoala]

But since their are over a Million Protestant Churches in the United States and given that not any two Pastors will agree on the exact Interpretation of each and every verse. Then which ONE of the One Million is teaching the ONE TRUTH and all the others are in essence HERETICS?

Which One?

 

[mojoala]

The RCC is a denomination that has generated more divisive doctrinal error for a longer period of time than all of them combined - no question about that.

The RCC generated doctrinal error to the extent that we saw Papal Armies raised and arrayed against rival Papal armies - Catholics killing Catholics by the thousands. Until finally at one time there were 3 Papal lines all with their own armies - all with successors -- all killing each other for purely religious reasons and between the 3 of them entirely consuming the former Roman Empire!!

NO denomination on the planet can claim such infamous history.

If it is your desire to compare at that level - I suggest you take another approach!

But you have to ask one question if you are honest. If you had been a Catholic living during those dark ages (the Golden Age of RC history is the Dark Ages of mankind) -- then how could you be certain you were killin the right Catholics? OR would you argue that you would have rejected the command of ALL 3 Popes and not engaged-in or supported any of their efforts???

Simply turning a blind eye to the dark history of the RCC does not "demonstrate" that you really find it to be "infallible" or "free of error".

In Christ,

Bob

And us Protestants are Innocent?

Bob your comment is a screed and a smoke screen

Therefore please provide some links.

I demand names, dates and places of these popes, armies and battles. Sure, popes led armies and did battle, but to reduce 500 years of history to "all killing for purely religious reasons" and "consuming the former Roman Empire" is just making a polemic lie out of the truth of history.

We Protestants have committed our fair share of wartime atrocities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

If you look at other religions you will also find many wars fought in their names and using the most devout among them as warriors.
Even the supposed pacifist Bhuddists were used by the Chinese Tang emporer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin

Here's recent one example, though I'm not sure if the Armenians technically qualify as Catholics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Anyways, the three popes and the wars they fought that you are alluding to is most likely from the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism
This was purely political and had nothing to do with doctrinal issues.

Doh, how could I forget:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissol...the_Monasteries
When Henry VIII disolved the monastaries in England, all those monks and nuns who refused were summarily executed.
Yeah, those would be those nice Anglican Church people.

 

[D28guy]

same

mojoala,

Here is some information that hopefully will shed some light on your confusion about these...ahem...30,000 :laugh: ...protestant denominations...

God bless,

Mike

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a86.htm

http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm

http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

 

[D28guy]

same

Matt Black,

In response to my post here...

"Its all the word of God. It doesnt make an ounce of difference wether Jesus Christ said something that ended up in Gods scriptures or wether Paul said something that ended up in the scriptures.

There is without a doubt a progression of revelation in Gods scriptures. Pretty much everyone understands and acknowledges that we read the old testament "in light of" the new testament. Meaning that the new testament explains, clarifies and teaches in great detail things that are sometimes given obscurely...types and shadows...in the old testament.

What sometimes causes problems is when people fail to understand that the same thing applies to the Epistles in relation to the Gospels.

Jesus said...

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language. But the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father."

The fullness of new covenant church doctrine is NOT found in the gospels but in the epistles. That shouldnt be a stumbling block, but for some strange reason with some it is.

There is absolutly nothing in the Gospels that comes even remotely close to the "in depth", comprehensive, and exaustive new covenant doctrinal teachings found in books like Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Collosians and Hebrews.

That is where the fullness of church doctrine is found.

Where Jesus might give a parable(that would have people scratching their heads), God would later give three or 4 in depth and detailed chapters through Paul.(or someone else, but usually Paul)

Where Jesus might allude to and old testament "type" and give a quick little nugget of truth to chew on, God would later give chapter after chapter after chapter of clear, concise, detailed doctrinal truth.

Obviously, the idea that anyone would dismiss Paul to accept Christs teachings, or dismiss Christs teachings to heed Pauls teachings is ridiculous.

But the reality of the "progression of revelation" in the scriptures is so very important. The new testament explains the old, and the epistles explain the gospels.

I was speaking with someone a while back at work and this guy said..."But these are the words of CHRIST in the sermon on the mount!!!

I just couldnt get him to understand how irrelavent that is.

ANYTHING that ends up in scripture is the WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

The same God who WAS Jesus Christ also spoke and taught through Paul, Peter, and the others. (But regarding church doctrine, most voluminously through Paul.)

And you then said...

"So, are you saying that Paul's letters 'trump' Jesus' words? And does that mean that James ("faith without works is dead") and Revelation 'trump' Paul?"

You obviously didnt read my entire post. If you will do that in the future it will help you to come across with a bit more credibility.

Did I not say this in my post?....

Obviously, the idea that anyone would dismiss Paul to accept Christs teachings, or dismiss Christs teachings to heed Pauls teachings is ridiculous.

My post clearly atriculates what I am saying about progressive revelation. I never said anything like what you claimed I said.

It has nothing to do with Paul cancelling out Jesus. It has to do with the fact that it was the same God who WAS Jesus Christ, speaking later through Paul. And regarding new covenant church doctrine, much more voluminously and with much more clarity.

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language. But the time is coming whan I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father."

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Mine of course

Okay Only One Protestant Church is right!

Which One?

Mine? or Yours?

Mine, of course.

 

[Claudia_T]

I thought that was obvious LOL! :laugh:

 

[mojoala]

:laugh:

I thought that was obvious LOL! :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[mojoala]

mojoala,

Here is some information that hopefully will shed some light on your confusion about these...ahem...30,000 :laugh: ...protestant denominations...

God bless,

Mike

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a86.htm

http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm

http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

SMOKE SCREEN!

There is no confusion. That book was written in 1982. 24 years of Proliferation has substantially increased the number.

You are totally ignoring the fact that in the 90's the non-denominational movement started and is still proliferating to this day. Creating at least 1 "denominational of one" in every city. There are at least 30,000 non-denominational denominations outside of the mainstream denominations and their offshoots just inside the United States alone if only each city had just one.

My rinky dink town alone has 3. Of the 30 churches in my town, only two actually claim to be part of the same denomination. And that are the two Methodist churches.

Oops make that 4. My wife just informed me that another one just opened up in a mini strip mall down the road.

Please stop throwing up Smoke Screens to obscure the thruth.

 

[mojoala]

If it was only 10000, that is 9999 too many.

 

[D28guy]

same

mojoala,

"There is no confusion. That book was written in 1982. 24 years of Proliferation has substantially increased the number."

His point remains completly true even now 24 years later.

The claims of that bozo who 1st came up with such lunacy are comically false

"You are totally ignoring the fact that in the 90's the non-denominational movement started and is still proliferating to this day."

So what? That proves absolutly nothing, other than that true christianity continues to flourish.

"Creating at least 1 "denominational of one" in every city."

Ha ha! :laugh: Utter nonsense. Complete rubbish.

"There are at least 30,000 non-denominational denominations outside of the mainstream denominations and their offshoots just inside the United States alone if only each city had just one."

My friend you are exhibiting the tendancies of one who has been brainwashed.

My rinky dink town alone has 3. Of the 30 churches in my town, only two actually claim to be part of the same denomination. And that are the two Methodist churches.

So what. That proves nothing other than that bible believing non-Catholic non-mainline liberal evangelical christianity is still flourishing.

Praise God! \o/

I have worshipped with many different fellowships with many different persuasions and points of emphasis during my many years as a born again christian. Pentecostal, Charismatic, "non-denominational", Southern Baptist, independant Baptist(not IFB), Church of Christ, Cambellite, Assemblies of God, etc etc etc. And in every single one of them I enjoyed sweet fellowship and love "in the Spirit" with my brothers and sisters in Christ. The name on the door meant nothing.

And in adition, I have been involved in many many many "joint" meetings and various endeavors of ministry with many different groups all working together with one another. ALL were brothers and sisters working together in unity. The names on the door of the various groups represented meant nothing.

And in all of these situations we all where of one mind and spoke the same thing regarding that which matters. The diety of Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Our understanding of the triune nature of God. The scriptures alone as truth source. Justification through faith alone. Jesus Christ is mans only hope for salvation. A future judgment. the literal new birth, etc etc

"Oops make that 4. My wife just informed me that another one just opened up in a mini strip mall down the road."

Praise God! He is blessing your area in a big way my friend.

Please stop throwing up Smoke Screens to obscure the thruth.

I'm not.

YOU try opening your eyes to Gods truth regarding these things, and stop insulting our intelligence with these comical claims in your posts.

God bless,

Mike

PS...

By the way, when are you going to adress the proof that has been given concerning the factions, divisions, splits and disagreements that exist in the Catholic Church?

Some reason why you are ignoring those posts?

 

[D28guy]

same

Caudia,

Reponding the the question of "which one is right", you said...

Mine of course...I thought that was obvious LOL! :laugh:

Sorry Claudia, but MINE is the correct denomination!

How can you miss it, you heretic!

Grrrrr!!!!!

Mike:thumbs: :laugh: raise:

 

[BobRyan]

If it was only 10000, that is 9999 too many.

The RC members keep arguing "Why don't we just toss out our Bible and agree on what our majesterium tells us"

And at other times they argue "Why don't we just go with the church that does not generate division and church split"

But the RCC is not the only church with leadership and the RCC is the one MOST guilty of generating division heresy, split and error as can be SEEN in their fabrications about "Purgatory, Mariolotry, prayers to the dead, magic water, magic powers for priests that are excommunicated, indulgences, division between sacred clergy and profane laity..."

So why do they think that appealing to their own ERRORS is an argument FOR their POV??!!

The PROBLEM that all other denominations HAVE in the first place is a measure of how CLOSE we all are to making the same dumb errors you find in the RCC! Their errors are just more massive and numerous BECAUSE they have had more time, power and control to MAKE them!

 

[Eliyahu]

Caudia,

Reponding the the question of "which one is right", you said...

Sorry Claudia, but MINE is the correct denomination!

How can you miss it, you heretic!

Grrrrr!!!!!

Mike:thumbs: :laugh: raise:

Mike,

In my childhood I used to hear that Heretics are JW, Mormons, Moonies, SDA, etc...
Even after my salvation I had such idea, but as time goes on, I realize that I could have saved a lot of time if I respected the Law and commandments from the beginning. Therefore I would distinguish SDA from others and trust that SDA can be right as long as they are born again first. The questions which we should ask ourselves are:
1) If anyone keeps the ten commandments, is that person Heretic?
If the others commit and violate the ten commandments, are they Orthodox? Whose idea is such discernment? Maybe Satan can be very happy with such discernment.

2) Which commandment among 10 commandments has Jesus repealed or rescinded? This may have been discussed in other thread.

3) Is God's criteria that one can be saved if the person ignore the 10 commandment? and SDA is therefore heretic because they are legalistic,and there is no salvation in SDA?

The legalistic approach may be wrong, but the obedience to God in any form is important.
I notice there are many anti-SDA's among the mainstream protestants, but they don't condemn Roman Catholic's paganism, idol worship, papacy, their persecution of true believers. When the True believers fought against Catholic paganism, where were they?

Calling SDA heretics just because they keep the commandments don't come from Holy Spirit, which I am very sure about. At least they didn't kill the people as Roman Catholic did by Crusade and Inquisition, and thru Proxy Wars. We must identify where is our main battlefield.

If anyone don't keep the commandments, they can be Heretics.
The questions are how to keep the commandments and there can be diverse opinions which can be discussed with Christian love.
This is my stance and I would recommend you to refrain from too much condemnation against Commandment-keepers.

 

[D28guy]

same

Elyahu,

My post to Claudia....WAS....A....JOKE.

(my goodness didnt the 3 smiling/laughing guys make it clear?)

I got the impression that Claudia was sort of making a dig at those claiming there are all of these..(Carl Sagans voice here).."billions and billions and billions" of denominations by saying "Why, MINE of course" in response to the question of "which one is right".

So I was was playing along with the joke by saying "No...MINE is correct, you heretic! Grrrr!!!!"

See?

God bless,

Mike

 

[mojoala]

By the way, when are you going to adress the proof that has been given concerning the factions, divisions, splits and disagreements that exist in the Catholic Church?

Some reason why you are ignoring those posts?

Why should I worry about their faction, divisions, splits and disagreements? Why should I point out the mote in the Catholic's eyes when there is a Beam in Ours?

Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15):

(1) Roman Catholicism = 223 = Interesting

(2) Protestant, = 8,196 = noncatholic
(3) Orthodox = 580 = noncatholic
(4) Non-White Indigenous = 10,956 = noncatholic
(5) Anglican = 240 denominations = noncatholic
(6) Marginal Protestant = 1,490 = noncatholic

(7) Catholic (Non-Roman) = 504 denominations = more interesting = What Catholics are not Roman? But for Argument's sake I will add 7 to 1.


So lets tally the numbers:

1 & 7 = 233 + 504 = 737

2,3,4,5, & 6 = 8,196 + 580 + 10,956 + 240 + 1,490 =
21,464

Catholic = 737 = mote
Non-Catholic = 21,464 = beam

And these numbers are from 1982.

Shoud I include non-denominationals added to the mixture during the 90's non-denominational movement?

as for answering svenson's claims. I had to do some googling.

It seems Svenson left out some pertinent facts.

Barrett lists 233 Catholic Denominations. How does he derive this figure? By saying that each country is a denomination of the Roman Catholic Church since One can only be Roman Catholic if your in Rome.

Hey, but read the article for yourself.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

Provided your not YELLOW!:laugh:

Me be thinking we each need to get a copy of Barret's Book and read it for ourselves. I am definitely going to buy one. You really need to buy it if you want to verify what Svenson claims....or to refute the other link.

 

[BobRyan]

how many dirty rotten "non-Baptist" churches out there. Thousands upon thousands of them along with the RCC as just another example -- OH if only they could bring themselves AND the RCC to the point where they could just be Baptist instead of being out there in that maze of non-Baptist churches - in confusion and splinterdom!

And dare I do that "same RC trick" with my own church? Why not!! "OH how many non-SDA churches there are out there sharing in that RCC-confusion of man-made-error and the devisive RCC."