-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Roman Catholicism
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
I thought that was posted as an example of people calling it a cult. But I guess what you were saying was that there are some (Such as Ruckman) who do make it into a cult.Jarthur001 said:
The way Cloud criticizes everyone else for suposedly "compromising", as that "separatist" movement thgat KJVO'ism is apart of always does; it was so ironic to see him on the defensive for a change, against someone more radical than he is. (Ruckman himself has said that he was too soft on the issue!) That whole movement is nothing but rampant one-upmanship, with one person claiming to be more holy than the next guy.
A couple of comments on the thread so far:
1. There are in fact 4 Scripture readings at every Mass, not 2: a psalm, a reading from the rest of the OT, the Gospel, and a reading from the rest of the NT
2. Re Pauline theology vs Jesus theology: in theory, both being the Word of God (IMO!), there should be no conflict, but in pratice Catholics and other 'higher' Churches emphasis the latter and evangelicals the former, thus creating conflict. For instance, the five Protestant solas are largely found in Paul's epistles, whereas some of Jesus' teaching (eg: the Sheep and the Goats in Matt 25) seem to suggest the necessity of good works.
1. There are in fact 4 Scripture readings at every Mass, not 2: a psalm, a reading from the rest of the OT, the Gospel, and a reading from the rest of the NT
2. Re Pauline theology vs Jesus theology: in theory, both being the Word of God (IMO!), there should be no conflict, but in pratice Catholics and other 'higher' Churches emphasis the latter and evangelicals the former, thus creating conflict. For instance, the five Protestant solas are largely found in Paul's epistles, whereas some of Jesus' teaching (eg: the Sheep and the Goats in Matt 25) seem to suggest the necessity of good works.
Matt Black said:
After attending both Catholic Services and Jewish Services I am intrigued that both sing the Psalms.
1Ch 16:9 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.
Psa 81:2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
Psa 95:2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
Psa 98:5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
Psa 105:2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Are Catholics and Jews the only ones that obey scripture with regard to Psalms?
I think the Calvinists/ Presbyterians used to over here - some still do. Geneva Psalter, anyone?
That would be a good subject to discuss, like what's the difference between the Roman Catholic's idea of doing Good Works and the Seventh Day Adventist's idea of doing Good Works.
When I think of the Roman Catholics I think of people crawling on their hands and knees or beating themselves silly or doing some sort of penance to earn merit.Then there is also the idea of keeping the Commandments to earn merit.
Then you have the Biblical doctrine of doing good works because you love God and because God commands us to and you are loyal to Him. Which is the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine.
Then you have the various Protestant Churches who claim that all they have to do is believe and live by grace and that they will be saved.
Some of the other Protestant Churches realize they need to keep the Law though and do good works.
Now THAT is probably a real good reason some people leave the protestant Churches and go join the Roman Catholic Church. They realize that the Bible says you are supposed to do good works and keep the commandments. Its unfortunate though that they swing to the opposite side of the pendulum and go into yet another unbiblical idea.
When I think of the Roman Catholics I think of people crawling on their hands and knees or beating themselves silly or doing some sort of penance to earn merit.Then there is also the idea of keeping the Commandments to earn merit.
Then you have the Biblical doctrine of doing good works because you love God and because God commands us to and you are loyal to Him. Which is the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine.
Then you have the various Protestant Churches who claim that all they have to do is believe and live by grace and that they will be saved.
Some of the other Protestant Churches realize they need to keep the Law though and do good works.
Now THAT is probably a real good reason some people leave the protestant Churches and go join the Roman Catholic Church. They realize that the Bible says you are supposed to do good works and keep the commandments. Its unfortunate though that they swing to the opposite side of the pendulum and go into yet another unbiblical idea.
What does that prove?
What does that prove? Just because there are different denominations proves NOTHING.
In Jesus' day there were the Pharisees, the Saducees and so on... none of that proves one side is right or wrong.
How about THIS IDEA... that ONE of the Protestant Churches is right and all the rest, plus the Catholic Church is WRONG
Thats why we need to go by the BIBLE to determine if a Church is of God and not by feelings.
Here you go, does the Roman Catholic church keep the Commandments? Oh really? I thought they CHANGED a couple of them! The 7th day Sabbath for instance.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm so THEY cant be God's church. The REMNANT CHURCH will be identified by the keeping of the Commandments. Not to mention, the Commandments OF GOD, and not OF MEN Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus.
You look for the identifying marks of God;s church IN THE BIBLE.... not by saying "um well, there are lots of different Protestant Denominations and so that must mean the Catholic Church is God's Church... well I say NONSENSE to that!
mojoala said:
What does that prove? Just because there are different denominations proves NOTHING.
In Jesus' day there were the Pharisees, the Saducees and so on... none of that proves one side is right or wrong.
How about THIS IDEA... that ONE of the Protestant Churches is right and all the rest, plus the Catholic Church is WRONG
Thats why we need to go by the BIBLE to determine if a Church is of God and not by feelings.
Here you go, does the Roman Catholic church keep the Commandments? Oh really? I thought they CHANGED a couple of them! The 7th day Sabbath for instance.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm so THEY cant be God's church. The REMNANT CHURCH will be identified by the keeping of the Commandments. Not to mention, the Commandments OF GOD, and not OF MEN Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus.
You look for the identifying marks of God;s church IN THE BIBLE.... not by saying "um well, there are lots of different Protestant Denominations and so that must mean the Catholic Church is God's Church... well I say NONSENSE to that!
Last edited by a moderator:
mojoala said:
All true Christians would agree agree to the Apostolic faith found in the Apostles Creed:
We may be divided on secondary issues but we are for the most part united on the primary issues. Where Satan divides us is in the changing of the gospel of grace through faith to a gospel of works.
FollowMeHome
New Member
How can all 40,000 denomination be RIGHT, but only the Catholic church is WRONG? It's only wrong because that's what you want to think. It's takes the blame of not properly catechising you off the back of your Catholic nun mother. It was HER responsibility to teach in an understandable manner the teaching of the Church. SHE failed you, not the Catholic church.Claudia_T said:
Some goes for Bob Ryan's parents and godparents.
FollowMeHome
New Member
Good works in the eyes of Baptist churches is building more church buildings that sit empty 5 1/2 days out of the week.
FollowMeHome
New Member
I stand corrected. I forgot about the Psalms reading which is sung by the cantor with a chorus line sung by the parishoners. I distinguished the Gospel reading separately from other scripture readings because it is read by the priest and the parishioners stand.Matt Black said:
Oh, and us hell-bound Catholics make a sign to take the Gospel into our mind, lips, and hearts. How bizarre is that? NOT!!!!!!!!
FollowMeHome said:
You know, it's possible that some of were indeed catechised right, that we knew what the Catholic church believed and taught, and because of the teachings of Scripture itself concluded that our church was wrong. As I said before, I was raised Catholic and my family remains Catholic to this day. I attended Catholic schools, completed my Confirmation when I was thirteen, went to retreats, and in my teens was even a member of the Legion of Mary. It was at eighteen that I put what I had been taught to the test of the Bible itself and concluded that the church I had been raised in was wrong. I can't speak for others, but I can say for myself that my disagreements with Catholic doctrine is not simply because the doctrine of my own denomination disagrees with Catholism. That is because I left the Catholic church long before I even attended, much less joined, a Protestant church.
same
Matt Black,
You said...
Its all the word of God. It doesnt make an ounce of difference wether Jesus Christ said something that ended up in Gods scriptures or wether Paul said something that ended up in the scriptures.
There is without a doubt a progression of revelation in Gods scriptures. Pretty much everyone understands and acknowledges that we read the old testament "in light of" the new testament. Meaning that the new testament explains, clarifies and teaches in great detail things that are sometimes given obscurely...types and shadows...in the old testament.
What sometimes causes problems is when people fail to understand that the same thing applies to the Epistles in relation to the Gospels.
Jesus said...
The fullness of new covenant church doctrine is NOT found in the gospels but in the epistles. That shouldnt be a stumbling block, but for some strange reason with some it is.
There is absolutly nothing in the Gospels that comes even remotely close to the "in depth", comprehensive, and exaustive new covenant doctrinal teachings found in books like Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Collosians and Hebrews.
That is where the fullness of church doctrine is found.
Where Jesus might give a parable(that would have people scratching their heads), God would later give three or 4 in depth and detailed chapters through Paul.(or someone else, but usually Paul)
Where Jesus might allude to and old testament "type" and give a quick little nugget of truth to chew on, God would later give chapter after chapter after chapter of clear, concise, detailed doctrinal truth.
Obviously, the idea that anyone would dismiss Paul to accept Christs teachings, or dismiss Christs teachings to heed Pauls teachings is ridiculous.
But the reality of the "progression of revelation" in the scriptures is so very important. The new testament explains the old, and the epistles explain the gospels.
I was speaking with someone a while back at work and this guy said..."But these are the words of CHRIST in the sermon on the mount!!!
I just couldnt get him to understand how irrelavent that is.
ANYTHING that ends up in scripture is the WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD!
The same God who WAS Jesus Christ also spoke and taught through Paul, Peter, and the others. (But regarding church doctrine, most voluminously through Paul.)
Grace and peace,
Mike
Matt Black,
You said...
Its all the word of God. It doesnt make an ounce of difference wether Jesus Christ said something that ended up in Gods scriptures or wether Paul said something that ended up in the scriptures.
There is without a doubt a progression of revelation in Gods scriptures. Pretty much everyone understands and acknowledges that we read the old testament "in light of" the new testament. Meaning that the new testament explains, clarifies and teaches in great detail things that are sometimes given obscurely...types and shadows...in the old testament.
What sometimes causes problems is when people fail to understand that the same thing applies to the Epistles in relation to the Gospels.
Jesus said...
The fullness of new covenant church doctrine is NOT found in the gospels but in the epistles. That shouldnt be a stumbling block, but for some strange reason with some it is.
There is absolutly nothing in the Gospels that comes even remotely close to the "in depth", comprehensive, and exaustive new covenant doctrinal teachings found in books like Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Collosians and Hebrews.
That is where the fullness of church doctrine is found.
Where Jesus might give a parable(that would have people scratching their heads), God would later give three or 4 in depth and detailed chapters through Paul.(or someone else, but usually Paul)
Where Jesus might allude to and old testament "type" and give a quick little nugget of truth to chew on, God would later give chapter after chapter after chapter of clear, concise, detailed doctrinal truth.
Obviously, the idea that anyone would dismiss Paul to accept Christs teachings, or dismiss Christs teachings to heed Pauls teachings is ridiculous.
But the reality of the "progression of revelation" in the scriptures is so very important. The new testament explains the old, and the epistles explain the gospels.
I was speaking with someone a while back at work and this guy said..."But these are the words of CHRIST in the sermon on the mount!!!
I just couldnt get him to understand how irrelavent that is.
ANYTHING that ends up in scripture is the WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD!
The same God who WAS Jesus Christ also spoke and taught through Paul, Peter, and the others. (But regarding church doctrine, most voluminously through Paul.)
Grace and peace,
Mike
Last edited by a moderator:
same
mojoala,
You quoted...
And then said...
Because we havent stopped laughing yet.
The whole point of that quote is comically insane. Its so ridiculous as to not even deserve a response.
1st of all...you must not know..(the Catholic Church wont tell you)..but the 30'000 figure has been proven to be absurdly false. I guess you never "got the memo" about that revelation. So, the Catholic Church is guilty of slander for perpetuating such a lie.
2ndly, the Catholic Church is proving itself to be exceedingly hypocritical as well. Anyone who actually believes the Catholic Church is of "one mind" on all things is living in an insane asylum somewhere.
There are millions of conservative Catholics and just as many moderate Catholics and just as many liberal Catholics. There are Franciscan Catholics and Benedictine Catholics and Marian Catholics.
There are "liberal" Roman Catholics by the thousands such as an active nun who held a public office in a particular state and espoused abortion as a woman’s right in spite of her Church’s official condemnation of abortion.
There are Liberation theologians in the Catholic Church whos method of preaching the gospel is an AK-47. For them the "truth that will make you free" is the barrel of a gun.
There are Catholics by the multiplied thousands still rebelling against Vatican II who ignore the Tridentine prohibition and attend masses said in Latin.
There is a group of Catholics who reject every Pope since Vatican II as being ilegitmate and have started their own Catholic Church with their own "Popes".
I could go on and on and on and on and on.
This idea that the Catholic Church is some "oasis" of unity and love is just comical. And their attacking protestantism makes them out to be supreme hypocrits.
God bless,
Mike
mojoala,
You quoted...
And then said...
Because we havent stopped laughing yet.
The whole point of that quote is comically insane. Its so ridiculous as to not even deserve a response.
1st of all...you must not know..(the Catholic Church wont tell you)..but the 30'000 figure has been proven to be absurdly false. I guess you never "got the memo" about that revelation. So, the Catholic Church is guilty of slander for perpetuating such a lie.
2ndly, the Catholic Church is proving itself to be exceedingly hypocritical as well. Anyone who actually believes the Catholic Church is of "one mind" on all things is living in an insane asylum somewhere.
There are millions of conservative Catholics and just as many moderate Catholics and just as many liberal Catholics. There are Franciscan Catholics and Benedictine Catholics and Marian Catholics.
There are "liberal" Roman Catholics by the thousands such as an active nun who held a public office in a particular state and espoused abortion as a woman’s right in spite of her Church’s official condemnation of abortion.
There are Liberation theologians in the Catholic Church whos method of preaching the gospel is an AK-47. For them the "truth that will make you free" is the barrel of a gun.
There are Catholics by the multiplied thousands still rebelling against Vatican II who ignore the Tridentine prohibition and attend masses said in Latin.
There is a group of Catholics who reject every Pope since Vatican II as being ilegitmate and have started their own Catholic Church with their own "Popes".
I could go on and on and on and on and on.
This idea that the Catholic Church is some "oasis" of unity and love is just comical. And their attacking protestantism makes them out to be supreme hypocrits.
God bless,
Mike
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
FollowMeHome said:
The RCC is a denomination that has generated more divisive doctrinal error for a longer period of time than all of them combined - no question about that.
The RCC generated doctrinal error to the extent that we saw Papal Armies raised and arrayed against rival Papal armies - Catholics killing Catholics by the thousands. Until finally at one time there were 3 Papal lines all with their own armies - all with successors -- all killing each other for purely religious reasons and between the 3 of them entirely consuming the former Roman Empire!!
NO denomination on the planet can claim such infamous history.
If it is your desire to compare at that level - I suggest you take another approach!
But you have to ask one question if you are honest. If you had been a Catholic living during those dark ages (the Golden Age of RC history is the Dark Ages of mankind) -- then how could you be certain you were killin the right Catholics? OR would you argue that you would have rejected the command of ALL 3 Popes and not engaged-in or supported any of their efforts???
Simply turning a blind eye to the dark history of the RCC does not "demonstrate" that you really find it to be "infallible" or "free of error".
In Christ,
Bob
I did not get my information from the Catholics, I got it from Oxfords's History of Christianity.
With the introduction of the non-denominational church which in itself is a denomination of one, that number of 30,000 is even higher. In my town alone, there are 30 churches with 3 of them being non-denominational. The actual statistic say 30,000 have been created. Some have disolved an no longer exist. But the statistic does not take into the explosion of non-denominations that started in the 90's and is continuing to balloon(will it burst?).
There are 19,429 cities that have municipal governments according to: http://www.nlc.org/about_cities/cities_101/138.cfm
So if each city has at least one non-denominational church, we have at least 19,429 denominations based on non-denominationals alone.
I suggest you do some better research.
20 of the churches in my town carry some title of "Baptist" in their name. I teach Sunday School at mine(unfortunately I cannot teach things that oppose what my Pastor believes and I can not teach those things that oppose what I believe. For I must stand before Jesus one day. I fear more to tell him "I taught only what I was taught" I rather tell him: "I taught what YOU told me to taught"). After Sunday School, I hurry to the next Church on my list. I attend a different church each Sunday and return to my home church Sunday Night for Bible.
This Church hopping I have been doing for 3 years now. I wanted to experience differing preaching styles and technigues. What I have discovered is distinct beliefs, faiths, and theologies. I am well known in my town now because of this. I am known as "The Critiquer". Why? I sit in the back pew with my notepad taking notes.
One town.
30 Different churches.
30 Different Minds.
30 Diffierent interpretations of the Bible.
30 Churches claiming to teach the "One Truth".
Because of this, I came upon the brink of denouncing God and Religion.
Even my 5 "Study Bibles" had commentaries that differed in interpretation. This disturbeds me even more. Each Bible has a list of Pastors and Theologians that contributed to the commentaries. Each list had at the most 5%, the same contributors.
Then one night, I had a dream. I was in a bookstore looking for another "Study Bible". Everytime I reached for a study bible I became completely afraid. Finally after numerous attempts I reached for a very thin plain Bible. It was thin because it was void of commentary. Only then did I feel a sense of comfort and love.
I woke up immediately at 4 am and went to the Walmart Super Center and searched for a plain Bible. And I began to read and read and read. I did not have the temptation and distraction of commentaries and other study aids.
The rest is as I stated in my initial post.
God Bless and Go live the Gospel.