Utterly false. Paul did not get it wrong.
The passage says God chose the faithful, not chose those who had bowed their knee, then made them faithful.
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Romans 11
- Thread starter glad4mercy
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Utterly false. Paul did not get it wrong.
The passage says God chose the faithful, not chose those who had bowed their knee, then made them faithful.
DodgeRomans does not say God softens those hardened as a consequence to the Fall, BECAUSE PAUL USES THE WORD "MERCIES" instead.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"the fullness of the Gentiles" is when all Elect Gentiles have been Saved.
That is The Age of Churches. The New Testament Era. The 1,000 years, The Inner-Mediatorial Period, between Jesus' Ascent to Heaven and His Second Coming, 1260 days, time, times, and a half a time, Today is The Day of Salvation, The Acceptable Year of The Lord.
Those Time Periods are all the same, leading up to Jesus Coming in Judgment and The Consummation of The Age.
Each of The Seven Visions, in The Book of Revelation, take place during the same Time Period.
They all take place at the same Time.
The Jews remain in Partial Blindness, until Jesus Coming, The One and Only Time He Returns, at The End of The World.
"And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away."
Matthew 21:19.
Jesus Knows His Bible.
John R. Rice knows what is my position, now.
So does Gill, Calvin, Sproul, & Wesley.
You will, too, when Jesus Comes.
...
If you had a concen regarding you and anyone else worshipping satan, you would go to The Bible with God The Holy Spirit and ask Him what God wants a child of His to understand, from a Spiritual Standpoint, as opposed to a Fleshly Standpoint.
...
Oh, my God, God was so Pleased with one of the replies I made, it was deleted.
Praise Jesus, for Spiritual Truth and Insight and Christian Fortitude, from God Himself.
He's so Provocative, sometimes.
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Note the use of an ad hominem, rather than address the fact this verse says God hardens when He would have no need if everyone started out with total spiritual inability.
The doctrine they are pushing is unbiblical.
More ad hominems, more defection from Romans 11. Nowhere in scripture is there any direct or indirect mention of the fiction of "judicial hardening" with the invented meaning of not really hardening. Utter nonsense once again.
Note.
I did not agree with Van's greater number of points as I stated in the post #127.
Beginning with the very first point, in which I pointed out:
Van said: ↑
Romans11:1-10 analysis and commentary by Van.
1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.
I replied:
No, What "his people" refers to is to the line of Jacob and not the line of Esau nor the line (though not stated) of Ishmael.
"...how he appeals to God against Israel?" God never refers to the line of Esau or Ishmael as "Israel." That is reserved for the descendants of Jacob who was renamed "Israel."
This then REMOVES the thinking of "BELIEVING" from the line of "believing Jews" and makes it Jews - believing or not.
"...how he appeals to God against Israel?" God never refers to the line of Esau or Ishmael as "Israel." That is reserved for the descendants of Jacob who was renamed "Israel."
This then REMOVES the thinking of "BELIEVING" from the line of "believing Jews" and makes it Jews - believing or not.
The whole of Romans 11 is about ALL Israel, not a small grouping.
Paul verifies that thinking by stating that the branches broken off will be re-grafted into the root:
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? ... 26and so all Israel will be saved;
See, Romans 11 is not merely the "believing Jews" but ALL Israel - the linage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and not Abraham, Isaac, Esau, or Abraham Ishmael.
The blood line flowed through Israel, and none other.
Returning to the OP topic, understanding Romans 11.
Here is my analysis and interpretation of verses 1-10.
1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.
2: His people (believing Jews) whom He foreknew (as part of the Old Covenant promise). Thus they were part of His previously formulated redemption plan under the Old Covenant Promise, not the Law.
3: Some of Abraham's descendants rejected God and killed His prophets. These were not part of "His people."
4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.
5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to a a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's choice of believing Jews.
6. An election based on faith is a gracious choice, and is not an election based on works.
7. Those seeking the promise by works were hardened, but those seeking the promise by faith were chosen. Note the timing of the choice, at the present time, rather than before creation.
8: The temporary hardening is as described in the OT.
9: The temporary hardening is as described elsewhere in the OT.
10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.
As you can see, this is a radically different take on the passage. Study the passage and two very different views and see what fits with the actual scripture.
Here is my analysis and interpretation of verses 1-10.
1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.
2: His people (believing Jews) whom He foreknew (as part of the Old Covenant promise). Thus they were part of His previously formulated redemption plan under the Old Covenant Promise, not the Law.
3: Some of Abraham's descendants rejected God and killed His prophets. These were not part of "His people."
4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.
5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to a a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's choice of believing Jews.
6. An election based on faith is a gracious choice, and is not an election based on works.
7. Those seeking the promise by works were hardened, but those seeking the promise by faith were chosen. Note the timing of the choice, at the present time, rather than before creation.
8: The temporary hardening is as described in the OT.
9: The temporary hardening is as described elsewhere in the OT.
10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.
As you can see, this is a radically different take on the passage. Study the passage and two very different views and see what fits with the actual scripture.
When we see the term "all Israel" what do we say it means? All Jews? All bloodline descendants of Abraham? Just believing Jews? None of the above.
All Israel refers to believing Jews and believing non-Jews as determined by God, or His individually chosen people
See Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26
All Israel refers to believing Jews and believing non-Jews as determined by God, or His individually chosen people
See Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26
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Even the views of Flowers acknowledges "judicial hardening" as a fact in the Scriptures (Judicial Hardening: God’s sinless use of sinful actions)
If there is anyone who attempts to refute the statements of the Dutch presentation of Calvin's thinking it is Flowers.
But leave it up to you to state the condition of your own view.
Van you are not quoting Romans 9 in context and therefore miss the statement's intent.
Romans 9:
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
You are making a false claim that Paul is not making.
Romans 11:
25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
So, again, you have not presented the truth from the Scriptures as proved BY THE SCRIPTURES.“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
All this time, I though that you consistently maintained that "all" means "all inclusive" in the Scriptures and that it was not some select group.
Have you suddenly adopted the thinking of some in which you would push against by accepting their view? Are you actually in agreement with those in which you mock?
Yet another topic change. And of course this judicial hardening has nothing to do with other judicial hardening defined before. BTW, both views are utterly bogus. When God hardens someone, He takes away the ability to chose godliness, but their sinful actions may be in accord with God's purpose, such as Pharaoh.
Repeating the truth about All Israel
When we see the term "all Israel" what do we say it means? All Jews? All bloodline descendants of Abraham? Just believing Jews? None of the above.
All Israel refers to believing Jews and believing non-Jews as determined by God, or His individually chosen people
See Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26
Not all the Jews are "all Israel" and non-Jews (Ruth anyone?) are part of "All Israel."
When we see the term "all Israel" what do we say it means? All Jews? All bloodline descendants of Abraham? Just believing Jews? None of the above.
All Israel refers to believing Jews and believing non-Jews as determined by God, or His individually chosen people
See Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26
Not all the Jews are "all Israel" and non-Jews (Ruth anyone?) are part of "All Israel."
Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:40 PM Pacific.
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:40 PM Pacific.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
All Elect Israel Shall Be Saved.
The Remnant.
The Bible is Practical.
Not all Israel is Spiritual Israel.
The Remnant.
The Bible is Practical.
Not all Israel is Spiritual Israel.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
It’s kind of funny that you can’t offer anything other than “liar liar pants on fire.”
What part of “I have kept for myself” escapes you? You insisting on a condition is pure eisegesis, especially when to hold your position you have to deny both what Paul has actually written and the Old Testament passage from where he takes it.
The Archangel
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know what Bible you have been reading Alan but the remnant of spiritual Israel is of a multitude no man can number... That is true election... Brother Glen
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Which begs the question, who is Israel. And, on that point, you miss the mark.
It is not my fault you think personal incredulity is something more than a logical fallacy. Those chosen had not bowed the knee when chosen. Thus a gracious choice based on faith and not works.
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