Romans 11

[Shoostie]

"the fullness of the Gentiles" is when all Elect Gentiles have been Saved.

What to you base that claim on?

 

[agedman]

​

The line of Jacob are believing Jews, not the blood line descendants of Abraham. Paul tells us so in the New Testament, who counts as the children of Sarah. Unbelieving Jews count as the line of Ishmael. And, Christians count as the line of Sarah. Judaism is a religion, and the Old Testament is full of converts of people with other blood lines.

Not true. Paul is a pointing to his own authority as a Jew (tribe of Benjamin) from the outset. This is the ONLY distinguishing he makes as far as WHO of the twelve tribes make up the group "Israel." He further distinguished the line of Israel (Jacob) from the other children of Isaac and Abraham by stating all that claim to be descendants are not those who carried the promise.

The whole of Israel carried the promise, not just a selection of a few who didn't bow the knee, which is exactly what the Lord was pointing out to Elijah. That God had complete knowledge and control over the whole group called Israel.

Too long many have attempted to present that only a subset of "believing Jews" carried the theme of Romans 11. Such is just too inconsistent to the statements found.

Therefore, when you state:

Which begs the question, who is Israel. And, on that point, you miss the mark.

you couldn't be more mistaken.

 

[The Archangel]

Those chosen had not bowed the knee when chosen. Thus a gracious choice based on faith and not works.

This is not what Paul says; it is not what 1 Kings 19 says. I know you want it to say what you claim it says, but you’re attempting to label a triangle as a square by reading into the text that they are the same thing.

The Archangel


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[Shoostie]

Not true. Paul is a pointing to his own authority as a Jew (tribe of Benjamin) from the outset. This is the ONLY distinguishing he makes as far as WHO of the twelve tribes make up the group "Israel."

I proved my claim by pointing to scripture. Maybe you're not familiar with scripture, so when I say Paul teaches Christians count as the children of Sarah, it means nothing to you, so you ignore it. And, Paul practically declares unbelieving Jews count as the line of Ishmael. So, it is by faith, and only faith, that anyone counts as the seed of Jacob -- a lesson Paul gives again in Romans 11 with the fig tree.

Yes, Paul points out he's a member of the tribe of Benjamin. But, I believe that's only to establish his authority, especially with bigots, like those Jesus encountered in John 8 who mistakenly thought their bloodline mattered. Don't make their mistake.

The whole of Israel carried the promise, not just a selection of a few who didn't bow the knee, which is exactly what the Lord was pointing out to Elijah. That God had complete knowledge and control over the whole group called Israel.

In Paul's theology, in Elijah's day, only 7000 Isrealites were saved (which says nothing about about their bloodline). In your theology, all the Israelites were saved (because of their bloodline). I don't see how your point helps you, because your theology contradicts what you're point to.

 

[agedman]

I proved my claim by pointing to scripture. Maybe you're not familiar with scripture, so when I say Paul teaches Christians count as the children of Sarah, it means nothing to you, so you ignore it. And, Paul practically declares unbelieving Jews count as the line of Ishmael. So, it is by faith, and only faith, that anyone counts as the seed of Jacob -- a lesson Paul gives again in Romans 11 with the fig tree.

I've got no problem in being related to Abraham as he is also an adopted child as I am. Paul does not place the Israel as related to Ismael, nor Esau.

You are attempting to narrow the focus and present Romans as proof, but Paul is not making the distinction that you are desirous.

Yes, Paul points out he's a member of the tribe of Benjamin. But, I believe that's only to establish his authority, especially with bigots, like those Jesus encountered in John 8 who mistakenly thought their bloodline mattered. Don't make their mistake.

Certainly, Paul points out his blood line to highlight his authority, but what he does not state that such is limited to only a subset of all those who carry that blood line. Rather, he spends the greater portion of his writing in this area on showing how ALL that blood line will be redeemed. He even points to the promise quotes and that God is not an "Indian giver" concerning His promises.

It is important to notice that the unbelieving will be made into believers by the authority of God.

In Paul's theology, in Elijah's day, only 7000 Isrealites were saved (which says nothing about about their bloodline). In your theology, all the Israelites were saved (because of their bloodline). I don't see how your point helps you, because your theology contradicts what you're point to.

NO! Elijah was not told folks were saved, but that they had not bowed the knee and WHY!
He is pointing to the preservation of all despite the failing. He is also exposing Elijah's self centered thinking.

One of the most neglected fact is that God refers to Israel as the people called by His name. That is ownership, and that is also relationship as relatives.

I may not have the great understanding as Paul in order to understand all mysteries, and know of just how God will work out all that He has promised, but this is the truth, Paul states that ALL Israel will be saved.

He does not put it in terms of a portion or a select few, or even only the believing ones. Those all that is human thinking. The Scriptures teach that point, and I am compelled to believe that point.

Paul presents that DESPITE belief (for it is clear that belief is not the initial desire), God WILL put Himself into their lives, they will (in effect) look upon Him who they pierced and will believe . Just as He redeems Gentiles, ALL Israel will be saved by God doing only what God can do.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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