Romans 3:10-18 - All people or just some?

[Me4Him]

Helen

Jesus said, "Let this "CUP" pass from me", but not my will, but thy will.

Then ask the question "Can you drink of the "CUP" I drank of"??

That "CUP" was Jesus "WILLINGLY" crucifying his "Physical body" for our salvation,

"WE" also have to be "WILLING" to "crucify the old body of sin" for his salvation,


Man didn't "TAKE" Jesus's life, he "FREELY" gave it up, and God won't "TAKE" our life either unless "WE" are "WILLING" to give it up for him.

The "CUP" is offer to "ALL MEN", Whether we chose to drink of that "CUP" or not is in the choice we make to continuing following the flesh, or crucifying the flesh in favor of the Spirit. ( but not my will, but thy will)


It's certain, calvin didn't understand how God expected "US" to "Conforming to his image".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
Me4,

You need to learn proper hermenutics man, you always use things out of context.

The "Natural man" is always out of context with the spiritual.

Are you saying we are not born sinners? Do you deny the doctrine of original sin?

And whats with this "God doesn't save the flesh" thing you are claiming? Salvation is complete, my flesh/body will be glorified at the ressurection and I shall be as He is. I believe in a literal bodily ressurection. What do you believe?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you explain to me why the soul "NEVER DIES" but the flesh does, that is if both "FLESH AND SOUL" are saved???

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, (flesh) but after this the judgment:

The only ones I can find in scripture that has an "Appointment" to die at the "SECOND DEATH" (GWT) is the Angels, reserved in chains,

I can't find any place in scripture where God has "appointed" any "MAN" to a second death, but I do find a loving God and Son who died for all sins to prevent that second death, if only they'd "believe", but the choice is man's on a "WHOSOEVER WILL" basis, God/Jesus both said, I would/you wouldn't.

 

[Helen]

Andy, I'm sorry that you think that putting things in context makes an argument fall flat, but I do appreciate that you agree about the young ruler.

 

[Andy T.]

Helen, do you think John 15:17 applies to us today? I assume you believe that it does. Then how do you arbitrarily throw v. 16 out the window? Like I said, all you have to believe is that Jesus chose them (and us) based on foreseen faith. That is, if you can support it Scripturally.

 

[Helen]

John 15:17 is a personal reminder to the disciples of what Jesus had stated publicly to all people before (Matthew 22:34-40, etc.). It is not a matter of throwing out or arbitrarily deciding anything, but of looking at the context.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Helen:
John 15:17 is a personal reminder to the disciples of what Jesus had stated publicly to all people before (Matthew 22:34-40, etc.). It is not a matter of throwing out or arbitrarily deciding anything, but of looking at the context.

"IN CONTEXT" is as much a "mystery" to them as "Free will".

 

[Helen]

Me4Him, mockery is not part of the Christian character.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
KJMatt.19

So was this young man saved? He said he kept them all and he was talking to The Master who surely would of known if he was truthful or not.


"18": He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

"19": Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

"20": The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

"21": Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

"22": But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions .

Brother Bob, Me4Him, et al. Did you miss the point of this event? The whole reason Jesus told him to go sell everything he had was to prove to him that he hadn't kept the commandments. If he had kept the commandments as he said, he would have been perfect and had no need for a savior. Your line of reasoning is faulty.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Helen, do you think John 15:17 applies to us today? I assume you believe that it does. Then how do you arbitrarily throw v. 16 out the window? Like I said, all you have to believe is that Jesus chose them (and us) based on foreseen faith. That is, if you can support it Scripturally.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

After reading the verses above, let me ask you a question.

"IF" only the names written in the lambs book from the foundation of the world, (Beginning) are going to be saved,

Then "WHY" does Jesus make an offer to save "ANY MAN", and "Whosoever" will accept him???

Seems to me if the names of the saved are already known, then the offer to "any man" and "Whosoever will" really is a "LIE" since only the known names will be saved.

Many are called few chosen, Has God making a "worthless effort" with those he knows aren't going to be saved, why would God do that??

Why does God make calls to people he knows are not going to be saved????

 

[Brother Bob]

And our preaching is in vain. (Me4Him)

 

[Brother Bob]

CalviBaptist:
You miss the point. The time had come that the Law could not save you, it never could. It still took the blood of the Lamb to save those that died before He came. A fountain was opened and half flowed to the hinder sea and half to the former sea. It only serves as a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ which it did but the young man would not accept Jesus as his God. We never have said the Commandments could save you just that it will serve as a schoolmaster and that to break them was to sin, therefore you must stop committing sin which is to break the Commandments.
Which Commandment had the young man broke and there is no way he could of already been saved. He certainly broke the first one when he put his money before the Lord but apparently He had not done so before or the Lord would of confronted him with it.

 

[Calvibaptist]

I'm not sure I understand Brother Bob. Are we agreeing here or disagreeing? I agree with everything you say in your first paragraph about the death of Christ, the law, and salvation.

I'm not sure the point you are making in the second paragraph. I had already said the young man was not saved. I had already said that he thought he kept the law, but Jesus' point to him was that he hadn't even done that. I was not even suggesting that anyone could keep the law. What I was reacting to was the assertion by Me4 that unbelievers keep the law all the time. No, they don't. The break the first commandment (which you recognized). In offending in one point, they offend in all.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
I was not even suggesting that anyone could keep the law. What I was reacting to was the assertion by Me4 that unbelievers keep the law all the time. No, they don't. The break the first commandment (which you recognized). In offending in one point, they offend in all.

Keeping the law, (not sinning) and obeying the commandments is quite different,

It's been said that an unsaved person would not so much as make an attempt to keep any commandment, but the young man actions proved that wrong.

The commandments were kept in the OT, Sacrifices/feast days, etc, and without a "Comforter" or "Holy Ghost" to lead/guide them, which calvinist claim isn't possible.

That was my point.

 

[Calvibaptist]

We never claim that someone can't go through the motions of keeping commandments. We claim that they are in no way pleasing to God. That, in reality, they never keep the spirit of the law, because although their lips praise Him, their hearts are far from Him.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Important fact about the commandments: They are all negative except for 2 (remember sabbath and honor parents).

That means that if you break the negative commandments even once you've broken it, period. For example - Thou shalt not covet. If you have ever coveted anything even once for a fraction of a second, you can never say that you have "kept" that commandment.

It is the same for the positive commandments. If you have ever, even for a fraction of a second, dishonored your parents, you can never say that you have "kept" that commandment.

This rich, young ruler was arrogant to think that he had kept commandments that were impossible to keep. Jesus was putting him in his place by the command to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. He was showing the man that his god was his money, so he was in the process of breaking the first commandment.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Helen:
Me4Him, mockery is not part of the Christian character.

"TRUTH" is not "mockery".

I haven't always liked what I heard, however my opinion doesn't change "TRUTH", but "TRUTH" does changes my opinion, this is when I'm receptive to that "TRUTH".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Important fact about the commandments: They are all negative except for 2 (remember sabbath and honor parents).

That means that if you break the negative commandments even once you've broken it, period. For example - Thou shalt not covet. If you have ever coveted anything even once for a fraction of a second, you can never say that you have "kept" that commandment.

It is the same for the positive commandments. If you have ever, even for a fraction of a second, dishonored your parents, you can never say that you have "kept" that commandment.

This rich, young ruler was arrogant to think that he had kept commandments that were impossible to keep. Jesus was putting him in his place by the command to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. He was showing the man that his god was his money, so he was in the process of breaking the first commandment.

Jesus was making the point that obeying the commandments wasn't sufficent to save, selling what he had, had nothing to do with his salvation,

The "CALL" to "Come and follow me" was what he rejected.

Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He could have gave away all he owned, and still die in sin, without answering that "CALL".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jesus was making the point that obeying the commandments wasn't sufficent to save, selling what he had, had nothing to do with his salvation,

The "CALL" to "Come and follow me" was what he rejected.

Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He could have gave away all he owned, and still die in sin, without answering that "CALL".

Of course. That is why I said Jesus was showing him that he hadn't kept the commandments that he thought he had. Salvation is only by grace through faith. It could never possibly be by keeping the commandments. BUT, this man thought it was. That is why Jesus revealed his error by showing that he hadn't even done what he trusted in.

 

[Andy T.]

After reading the verses above, let me ask you a question.

"IF" only the names written in the lambs book from the foundation of the world, (Beginning) are going to be saved,

Then "WHY" does Jesus make an offer to save "ANY MAN", and "Whosoever" will accept him???

Seems to me if the names of the saved are already known, then the offer to "any man" and "Whosoever will" really is a "LIE" since only the known names will be saved.

Many are called few chosen, Has God making a "worthless effort" with those he knows aren't going to be saved, why would God do that??

Why does God make calls to people he knows are not going to be saved????

Are you an Open Theist??? Because it sure sounds like from your line of questioning that you want me to answer that God doesn't know who is going to be saved, so that's why He needs to make a bona fide offer (as defined by your terms).

Sorry, God knows the future perfectly. This is not a debate over C vs. A. You've stepped into the realm of orthodoxy vs. un-orthodoxy. But that's not a first for you.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Helen:
John 15:17 is a personal reminder to the disciples of what Jesus had stated publicly to all people before (Matthew 22:34-40, etc.). It is not a matter of throwing out or arbitrarily deciding anything, but of looking at the context.

But you've still haven't shown me why we can dismiss v. 16. Out of this entire discourse with the disciples, why are we supposed to dismiss this one sentence?