Romans 5:1

[Alan Gross]

Not sure what you're saying here. There is no one saved who is not made righteous.

But I think you're trying to say that Abraham's faith was a different kind, and that one can be righteous by faith without the work of Christ on the Cross. But Abraham rejoiced to Christ's day.

Faith is in Jesus.

Faith has an OBJECT.

The OBJECT of Faith is Jesus.

Abrahams's Faith was in Jesus.

The Righteousness of Jesus' PERFECT LIFE, Death, Burial, and Resurrection were then Imputed to Abraham, as it is all Believers.

It's Called, "Salvation".

Faith in Jesus.

Jesus is the Savior.

Get that.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again you falsely accuse and blame a mythical calvin. You know what they say about a person who continues to do the same failure without ever changing. It is a sign of insanity.

You will never make me believe your humanism is truth, Silverhair. In fact, most people here find your humanism to be foolishness, and they are right to view your theology that very way. Your godless interpretation is to be avoided at all costs.

I notice that you never deal with the scripture you just blow and bluster. It is your blind loyalty to your calvinism that is your failure. You have to filter the bible through it.

I really do not care if you like what I say but you really need to start trusting what the bible says. Ignoring clear scripture in favour of your theological view is as you said a sign of insanity.

Perhaps one day your eyes will be opened to the truth of scripture but that will require that you remove the blinders.

 

[Alan Gross]

I notice that you never deal with the scripture you just blow and bluster. It is your blind loyalty to your calvinism that is your failure. You have to filter the bible through it.

I really do not care if you like what I say but you really need to start trusting what the bible says. Ignoring clear scripture in favour of your theological view is as you said a sign of insanity.

Perhaps one day your eyes will be opened to the truth of scripture but that will require that you remove the blinders.

The Eternal Plan of Salvation. The Whole Counsel of God and the Covenant between and among The Triune Godhead is, "The Truth". Every Scripture Teaches what you shortsightedly call, "Calvinism".

 

[Silverhair]

The Eternal Plan of Salvation. The Whole Counsel of God and the Covenant between and among The Triune Godhead is, "The Truth". Every Scripture Teaches what you shortsightedly call, "Calvinism".

The bible does indeed teach The Eternal Plan of Salvation. The Whole Counsel of God and the Covenant between and among The Triune Godhead and much more. That is why I trust what the bible says in clear English.

Calvinism has to twist or change scripture to make it fit. When you have to do that then that means you are not trusting scripture rather you are trusting what you want scripture to say. Many of the calvinists on here, by times, sound like my sister-in-law. As she always says the bible is to be believed as far as it has been correctly translated. She's a Mormon.

 

[Alan Gross]

The bible does indeed teach The Eternal Plan of Salvation. The Whole Counsel of God and the Covenant between and among The Triune Godhead and much more. That is why I trust what the bible says in clear English.

Calvinism has to twist or change scripture to make it fit. When you have to do that then that means you are not trusting scripture rather you are trusting what you want scripture to say. Many of the calvinists on here, by times, sound like my sister-in-law. As she always says the bible is to be believed as far as it has been correctly translated. She's a Mormon.

"we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Salvation is the Activity of God, through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Savior.

 

[AustinC]

The bible does indeed teach The Eternal Plan of Salvation. The Whole Counsel of God and the Covenant between and among The Triune Godhead and much more. That is why I trust what the bible says in clear English.

Calvinism has to twist or change scripture to make it fit. When you have to do that then that means you are not trusting scripture rather you are trusting what you want scripture to say. Many of the calvinists on here, by times, sound like my sister-in-law. As she always says the bible is to be believed as far as it has been correctly translated. She's a Mormon.

Your humanist theology is not that different from hers, Silverhair.

 

[Van]

I thought the area of disagreement was clear based on my post, but I’ll say it again.

The context of Romans 5 begins in chapter 2 with discussion of God’s judgement which is mentioned at least 8 times through chapter 4. Paul then transitions to imputed righteousness of Christ through faith.

So the justification of chapter 5, in context, is a forensic (legal) justification in God’s court of law.

Hope that is specific enough. I know you disagree, do no need to respond

peace to you

You are quite right, you have provided no clarification upon which to respond. Does God credit the whole person of just his or her faith according to scripture? My view, just his or her faith has been presented. Does "declared righteous" apply to humans declaring themselves righteous? My view is yes.

What explicit verse says God declares an individual righteous, rather than God justified? Clearly all the support comes from translator choices as those same verses are also rendered justified. Whereas the ones stating God makes a person righteous contain the Greek word meaning made.

 

[canadyjd]

You are quite right, you have provided no clarification upon which to respond. Does God credit the whole person of just his or her faith according to scripture? My view, just his or her faith has been presented. Does "declared righteous" apply to humans declaring themselves righteous? My view is yes.

What explicit verse says God declares an individual righteous, rather than God justified? Clearly all the support comes from translator choices as those same verses are also rendered justified. Whereas the ones stating God makes a person righteous contain the Greek word meaning made.

And so we disagree. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

"we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Salvation is the Activity of God, through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Savior.

YES

 

[Silverhair]

Your humanist theology is not that different from hers, Silverhair.

You keep calling me a humanist, even though I have told you repeatedly that I am a Christian. Get your facts straight. You do not like the fact that I point out the errors in your theology but there is not need for you to be insulting. Is that just you calvinist arrogance coming through or is that just your true nature?

The errors in your understanding of scripture have been pointed out to you by a number of people. I would not say your stance on calvinism is a sign of insanity, just that you are very confused.

I notice you still avoid dealing with the scripture that I posted again at post # 49. The truth of scripture seems to be something that you want to avoid, why is that?

 

[AustinC]

You keep calling me a humanist, even though I have told you repeatedly that I am a Christian. Get your facts straight. You do not like the fact that I point out the errors in your theology but there is not need for you to be insulting. Is that just you calvinist arrogance coming through or is that just your true nature?

The errors in your understanding of scripture have been pointed out to you by a number of people. I would not say your stance on calvinism is a sign of insanity, just that you are very confused.

I notice you still avoid dealing with the scripture that I posted again at post # 49. The truth of scripture seems to be something that you want to avoid, why is that?

I have stated that your theology is humanist. Therefore you approach God with the idea that you have free will authority over God. This is your teaching. There is no confusion in the matter and many here at the BB recognize your theology as such. Moreso, your Mormon friend would claim to be a Christian so merely claiming the title is empty of substance.

You certainly imagine I am in error as you deny the Supremacy of Christ Jesus over and above your fleshly will. To believe that God is Supreme is anathama to your line of thinking. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that you disagree with me. On this matter God's Word fully supports me while you fall in your face in failure.

 

[Silverhair]

I have stated that your theology is humanist. Therefore you approach God with the idea that you have free will authority over God. This is your teaching. There is no confusion in the matter and many here at the BB recognize your theology as such. Moreso, your Mormon friend would claim to be a Christian so merely claiming the title is empty of substance.

You certainly imagine I am in error as you deny the Supremacy of Christ Jesus over and above your fleshly will. To believe that God is Supreme is anathama to your line of thinking. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that you disagree with me. On this matter God's Word fully supports me while you fall in your face in failure.

Your lack of comprehension skills is astounding. Do you actually read my posts or do you just run off with your calvinist rants?

I have shown a great deal of patience in dealing with your childish comments, if and when you decide to start acting like an adult then we can continue to dialogue. You must realize by now that your refusal to deal with scripture just shows how shallow your position is.

 

[AustinC]

Your lack of comprehension skills is astounding. Do you actually read my posts or do you just run off with your calvinist rants?

I have shown a great deal of patience in dealing with your childish comments, if and when you decide to start acting like an adult then we can continue to dialogue. You must realize by now that your refusal to deal with scripture just shows how shallow your position is.

My comprehension is quite good. This is precisely why I contend against your humanist theology that denies the Supremacy of God over your life.

 

[Silverhair]

My comprehension is quite good. This is precisely why I contend against your humanist theology that denies the Supremacy of God over your life.

You just deny scripture so as to support your calvinism.

 

[Van]

And so we disagree. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

Who would know? Stating you disagree rather than presenting answers to the specific questions is not presenting an alternate view.

 

[AustinC]

You just deny scripture so as to support your calvinism.

Keep falling on your imaginary calvin. No one brings it up except you. It's your fantasy to justify your humanist theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Keep falling on your imaginary calvin. No one brings it up except you. It's your fantasy to justify your humanist theology.

Well then deal with the scripture instead of running away from it. You have yet to respond to any of the text that I have given you.

 

[AustinC]

Well then deal with the scripture instead of running away from it. You have yet to respond to any of the text that I have given you.

Sigh, I have already provided comment for every prooftext you have ever used. Your memory is incredibly short and I won't waste my text on what has already been done.
We are at an impasse. You want to be over God and I want to be under God's authority.

 

[Silverhair]

Sigh, I have already provided comment for every prooftext you have ever used. Your memory is incredibly short and I won't waste my text on what has already been done.
We are at an impasse. You want to be over God and I want to be under God's authority.

Sigh, you come up with the same response whenever you do not want to deal with scripture. These are not prooftexts they are scripture but you must not know that. Your responses just show how little you do read or understand.

I do agree we are at an impasse, I post scripture and you ignore it. You want people to accept your calvinist view but most on here reject it as does most of Christianity. Funny, you say I want to be over God when it is the calvinist that misreads scripture, changes the meaning of words in the text and hold to contradictory ideas in your confessions. Need I go no pointing out the errors in your theology.

Think through your theology to the logical end if you are able. You will see that it does not fit with scripture. I do wish you the best Austin, and may God open your eyes to the truth.

 

[Van]

NASB
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The phrase for study in this verse is "justified by faith." Now the Greek word translated "justified" is also translated by some versions as "declared righteous." And the word certainly has both meanings within its semantic range. However if God is causing the righteousness, the word should be translated as made righteous or justified, rather than "declared righteous." A perusal of the places where "declared righteous" is intended are the verses where individuals declare themselves righteous. See Luke 7:29, 10:29 and 16:15.

The "by" in our phrase translates the Greek preposition "ek" which means (positionally) out of, and metaphorically based upon. Thus we are justified based on faith. Now is that any faith or only faith in Christ as credited by God? As credited by God. See Romans 4:23-25.

NASB
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

One of the things I was taught as part of learning how to study scripture was to ask, "What is the therefore therefore?"

The Greek word, "oun" G3767 when used as a conjunction ties what has been presented to its conclusion, thus could also be translated as "accordingly or consequently." The idea is you need to look at the prior verses to see what is being concluded.
Here a chapter break (end of chapter 4, start of chapter 5) also artificially breaks up the passage. Romans 4:23-25 is thus summarized by Romans 5:1.

Romans 4:23- 5:1
Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
but for our sake also, to whom it [righteousness] will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.
Therefore, having been justified on the basis of faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,