Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

[Gup20]

Just one question. Do you believe all men can come to Christ without any divine intervention? Jesus said plainly "NO man CAN come to me" except by a specific type of divine intervention - but your understanding and interpretation of Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10 repudiate the words of Christ on the very subject we are discussing.

Your understanding of Romans 10 is to the exclusion of Romans 9 and 11 which contradict your interpretation. Responsibility is not the same as ability. God is not culpable for human inability as that is man's fault not God's. If you want to get into Romans 10 and see how your understanding holds up to proper exegesis then I am your man and we can do so in thread dedicated to that subject.

Jesus was the divine intervention. God selected the descendants of Abraham to inherit Christ’s righteousness... the righteousness given in a 1:1 exchange with Abraham. God promised that righteousness as an everlasting inheritance by the descendants of Abraham. This is how the righteousness of 1 is multiplied to the many. If faith & salvation we’re direct, Jesus would have to die once for every person saved. Jesus exchanged is righteousness in a direct 1:1 exchange with Abraham, but every subsequent salvation is indirect by faith (the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had) qualifying is as a descendant of Abraham & a fellow heir of Christ’s righteousness through God’s promise to Abraham that it would be an everlasting inheritance by all of his descendants.

By the promise of God, all of Abraham’s spiritual descendants are enabled to inherit righteousness. That seems like divine intervention to me. Yet we qualify for kinship with Abraham through volitional faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

My response is that I understand you accept your "proof" as proof. As I have proven by my answer to you, I do not.

I am saying Adam was created "not in Christ" and would prove to need redemption.....just like us.

So, I should just treat your posts with evidence for your position just as you have mine? Ignore it? You have not addressed the particulars of posts 135, 141, and 143 which destroy your view. You won't dare address the particulars for one good reason. You can't

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus was the divine intervention. .

Pleeeeasse that is ridiculus as Jesus says that intervention is found in the word "draw" not in the person of Christ. If this is best you can do, why bother?

 

[The Biblicist]

Indeed, “the gospel” comes from God.... yet belief is volitional:

No one denies that, not me at least.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

No disagreement here

The “word” referred to in Romans 10:17 is not faith itself, it is “the gospel.” Look at the context:

No, look at the word being used. What you are overlooking is that the preaching of the gospel only reaches the outer man when preached by men. The "command" of God energizes so that it does not come "in word only" but "in power and in the Spirit" within the heart and that is an act of God alone that no human preacher can perform. That is what "draw" refers to. That is what John 6:45 refers to when Jesus explains "draw" as "teach" as it is the INWARD empowering of the gospel within man.

Your doctrine is merely EXTERNAL and empty and asserts explicity what Jesus repudiated in John 6:44.

Romans 10:15-17 (NASB) 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Notice you stopped short and did not quote verse 18 which denies your interpretation that men can preach the gospel to produce faith in sinners.

 

[The Biblicist]

No one denies that, not me at least.

No disagreement here

No, look at the word being used. What you are overlooking is that the preaching of the gospel only reaches the outer man when preached by men. The "command" of God energizes so that it does not come "in word only" but "in power and in the Spirit" within the heart and that is an act of God alone that no human preacher can perform. That is what "draw" refers to. That is what John 6:45 refers to when Jesus explains "draw" as "teach" as it is the INWARD empowering of the gospel within man.

Your doctrine is merely EXTERNAL and empty and asserts explicity what Jesus repudiated in John 6:44.

Notice you stopped short and did not quote verse 18 which denies your interpretation that men can preach the gospel to produce faith in sinners.

This thread needs to be closed as it is spreading out to other subjects and the original subject has come to an impasse.

 

[JonC]

So, I should just treat your posts with evidence for your position just as you have mine? Ignore it? You have not addressed the particulars of posts 135, 141, and 143 which destroy your view. You won't dare address the particulars for one good reason. You can't

Absolutely. If you beliueve my view not supported then stick with your own.

I won't dare address the paticulars you present because they are not relevant (they do not prove your case).

You have failed to show, in scripture, that sin itself is a part of our nature. You have failed to show this "fatal flaw" became an inherent part of what it is to be human.

Prove your assumptions first. Then make your case.

 

[percho]

I wouldn't say God sold man under sin. But I do believe God created man in such a way that perfect natural man was always less than "perfected in Christ". Redemption was, IMHO, always the plan. Jesus being the Firstborn of many brothers was not reactionary.

"Pre-Fall" Adam was never perfect "in Christ".

I agree with that last statement. "Pre-Fall" Adam was never perfect "in Christ"

Permit me to ask;

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Cor 15:15:56

Does that mean that, "Thou shall not eat of it," was the strength of the act that brought, the death?

Or put another way: For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Rom 7:14

Consider
God created/made the man out of the dust of the earth.
God planted a garden eastward in Eden.
God put the man in the garden.

Why? Who was already in the garden, hanging out around the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

For what the law (Thou shall not eat of it) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Romans 8:3

How did God accomplish that through his own Son, in the flesh? Through the death and life again, from the dead?

Here is a thought. Before the foundation of the world it was foreordained the Christ, the Son of the living God, would die, the death. Shed his life;s blood. Pour out his soul unto death.

At this same time God who cannot lie made a promise, the hope of eternal life.

God told Adam dying thou dost die. The wages of sin.

Just who do we believe that promise of hope was made for? Sinners? What about, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: the sinless one.

Maybe even the Son of God was sold under sin, OURS.

By whose faith, belief, are we saved? Do we save ourselves by believing something? Or we saved by, faith of God, the faith of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God? Christ in us, the hope of glory?

 

[percho]

The reason I believe my posts are relevant to the OP is because I believe sin and death existed before Adam was created and was the purpose of the creation of Adam.

Therefore Adam was going to sin and bring the death to man.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:15 PM Pacific.