Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

God's plan is not about restoring creation to it's original state. It is about bringing creation into an eternal existence through the Lord Jesus Christ.

"God is doing a new thing..."

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

It's not about the first, it's about the last.

Physical creation was first.
Spiritual creation was second

The tree of knowledge was first
The tree of life was second

The law of Moses was first
The Law of Grace was second

Ishmael was first
Isaac was second

Esau was first
Jacob was second

Mennesah was first
Ephraim was second

Adam was first
Jesus was Last

God brought these clues throughout history. It wasn't about first creation, it's about the second and last creation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Amen. Which is better, the First covenant or the Last covenant?

 

Brother, you are incorrect. It says in verse 65 "For this reason I said that no one can come to me unless granted by the Father". The reason given in verse 64 is unbelief. It does not say "they are in unbelief because they are in unbelief" ... rather... it says "they have not been granted permission by the father to come to be because of their unbelief." If your interpretation were correct it would say:

Jhn 6:64-65 BIBLICIST
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can believe"

see what it actuallly says:

Jhn 6:64-65 NASB
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
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I think you are having trouble seeing past your own interpretation of the passage to understand how I'm presenting it.

Verse 44 doesn't tell us WHY they cannot come, but rather states a fact THAT they cannot come. Verse 64-65 clearly tells us WHY Jesus said that in verse 44. "For this reason (verse 64) I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father (verse 44)."

I'm sorry, but the text simply cannot be interpreted in that way because it is explicitly interpreted in the opposite way by Jesus in verse 64-65.

This refers to the drawing of those qualified under the covenant, but says nothing to how one qualifies to be in the covenant. In fact, having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had is how one qualifies to be in the covenant. This is why Calvin and Arminius were both so very wrong... they both thought faith DIRECTLY qualified one for righteousness. It does not. Faith qualifies a person for human adoption into kinship with Abraham... then those who are descendants of Abraham qualify for the covenant and inherit Christ's righteousness which was given to Abraham in Genesis 15:5-6.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
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It seems you are building your entire case against JonC on "harmatia" existing before Adam sinned and the idea that JonC said God created Adam as "harmatia". You also assert that JonC is saying Adam was created with a sinful nature.

Nowhere in this thread do I see this.

 

It's funny because the covenant of faith (the 2nd covenant) came 430 years before the covenant of The Law (the 1st covenant). But faith was never in full effect until after Christ performed his work.

Gal 3:13-18 NASB
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Gen 15:5-6 KJV
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

Here we see God tells Abraham about Jesus (according to Gal 3:16), and when Abraham believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8,16), God makes him righteous. Then God RATIFIES this covenant with Abraham in the latter half of Genesis 15:

Gen 15:17-18 NASB
17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, [there appeared] a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
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THis is how covenants were ratified in those days... you split animals in half and walked between the halves with fire signifying that this is what would be done to anyone who breaks the covenant.

So the covenant of FAITH came 430 years before the Law of Moses.... so take special note of what Galatians 3:15 says - once a covenant has been ratified, no one can set it aside or add conditions to it. Since The Law came 430 years AFTER the covenant of faith, the Law of Moses does not amend or add conditions to the covenant of faith. Therefore, the covenant of faith is APART FROM and OUTSIDE OF The Law of Moses. Therefore there is no theological legitimacy to works-based salvation.

 

Yes! Christ is before all, yet He came on the scene last. His covenant, promise, work, inheritance was a reality before everything, yet in time and space it came second and last.

Just as Jacob received the firstborn promise, although he was second, Christ was always the promised purpose even though He came as the Last.

 

Adam before he fell was not sinning against God, and started to, and kept on after the fall, so clearly changed his nature!

 

Jon C needs to hold as he does in this area, due to him seeing Jesus born with same nature as we all now have, with him never choosing to sin the difference!

 

That would be a grammatical error. You don't say "it was for this reason I said..." and then give the reason... you say "it was for this reason I said..." and then repeat what you had previously stated. The reason is indicated in verse 64 for the reiteration in verse 65 of what was said in verse 44.

We don't have to ask why... Jesus explicit said the reason they couldn't come was because of their unbelief in verse 64.

 

Since, per you, jesus has same nature as us, could he had sinned?

 

BTW Biblicist.. I noticed you haven't touched Deuteronomy 30 with a 10ft pole... and actually have actively and willingly declared you would ignore that evidence.

 

You just placed on the junk pile classic Christian theology of the fall, and Pauline Justification!